Risks are tremendous? Hmm…. if Bill Kinsinger, MD is supposed to be the expert, maybe he better do his homework a little better. The average chiropractor pays about $1,600 in malpractice insurance / year. The average medical doctor pays anywhere from 8-10 times that. If chiropractic was so dangerous, the statistics would be reversed, as insurance companies would seize opportunities to raise premiums.

Your chances of suffering lethal consequences from taking over the counter Aspirin are much greater than a suffering a stroke from chiropractic manipulation. The healthcare system has high costs because the medical cartel has created a society of hypochondriacs and facilitates a dependency and symptom-based model.

Performing unnecessary surgeries and dangerous drugs that are not studied in depth and a couple of the main causes for the state we’re in. I mean, come-on, the US is ranked 39th in overall health-care, yet we have the best trained MD’s in the world. “Blame everyone but yourself, Bill.” The problem with many medical doctors like this and why they are dangerous, is simply because of their arrogance. As Pfizer or some drug company probably pays for Bill Kinsinger, MD’s lavish vacations and continues to indoctrinate him.

You want to speak about quacks, maybe you should investigate people that get trained from drug-reps with minimal background in physiology or the history of the pseudoscience known as psychiatry.

I agree that Chiropractic cannot cure cancer/bad breath/ugliness – and all of the other things that are sometimes claimed by some unscrupulous practictioners…

However – in my own experience, after going to Drug Pushing Doctors for YEARS after a back/neck injury left me with no feeling in my last three fingers on either hand – all those doctors wanted to do was push more drugs (which had horrible side effects) – and operate (which would have had me out of commission for months)!

Before I agreed to surgery – I took a friends advice, and went to a local Chiropractor. After just THREE adjustments – I regained almost all of the feeling in my fingers again.

I don’t think it’s for everyone, in every situation – but for neck/back pain – it beats taking more drugs EVERY time.

For Alexis and any other pro-chiro folks who want to chime in lets be clear. Comparing liability premiums of physicians to those of chiropractors is not an accurate measure of the safety profile or quality of the two professions.

Physicians care for very sick people in an acute hospital settting, freqeuntly at the end of life, and frequently following tragic accidents, or in the midst of devastating illnesses. Bad outcomes including death are a daily occurence and in our litigious society there is frequently a need to place blame.

Chiropractors on the other hand care for an essentially healthy patient population exclusively in an outpatient setting. Having a patient die while undergoing chiropractic care would seem to be near impossible, unfortunately it can and does happen on a rare basis. Arterial dissections following neck manipulation are the most likely source of these unexpected tragedies. No matter what the actual incidence of these occurences, even one is too many. No patient should ever die or suffer permanent profound injury in the name of a philosophical belief system.

Every year, insurance premiums go up as insurance coverage goes down for our patients. Chiropractic manipulation is an unnecessary practice. Many of the founding techniques are rudimentary at best, and there is no professional rubric for guiding when to use these manipulations. Many people should not be manipulated on as it can worsen their conditions. You do see some studies now being published with evidence based practice in mind, but why should the health care consumer waste their money when they can go to another practitioner (i.e. DO, PT) who can perform safer techniques that are just as effective without the risk? The general populace has been misinformed for many years, and as education begins to transfer more to the patients, I hope we’ll see less of this barbaric art form in practice.

[...] Chiropractic Blogs posted a noteworthy aricle today onHere’s a small snippetThe birth of chiropractic occurred in Davenport Iowa in 1895. Daniel David Palmer was an uneducated grocer who longed to find a cure for all disease. He reportedly cured a deaf man by manipulating his neck and convinced himself that he … [...]

It’s frightening, chiropractic really doesn’t have any benefits and really can cause massive injuries. I know this from experience.

Chiropractic care has minimal positive health affects. I think chiropractic medicine helps alleviate some pain and inflammation but I believe for the most part our bodies themselves “adjust” and correct. The human body is built by piecing things together as the spinal column is and when something is out of place our body reacts ex: muscles tighten inflammation occurs. So I dont think that chiropractors cure health related sickness or birth defects but it can help alleviate those minor aches and pains.

chiropractic medicine definitley helps relieve back pain and adjusts your back appropriatley if you were injured somehow, but otherwise i agree that the medicine they practice is not useful if i have a cold, or will heal all illnesses. i have actually seen a chiropractor before who explained such non-sense like in this article, and i only saw him that one time because i could do all the adjustments he did on my own and it allievated muscle pain mostly.

new studies by cassidy out of canada proove that people will have this rare condition of an arterial dissection which can give them neck pain and headache..then they decide to see their primary care doctor or a chiropractor..because this condition is so rare it is very easy to misdiagnose by both medical doctors and chiropractors…the natural course of this problem can lead to stroke..it is NOT the manipulation but the misdiagnosis…percentage wise you are more likely to have a stroke after a medical visit for neck pain than a chiropractor….according to this gigantic study…..sorry Dr. Kinsinger…you are now out of a job because there is no direct correlation between spinal manipulation and stroke.

Ethan, you sound angry at Dr. Kinsinger. Do you really mean to have this attitude? He is an outstanding professional…..

If there is all this evidence that chiropractors have no scientific backings behind their “profession”, then why is it still widely accepted? Prior to reading this I believed that chiropractors were legitimate in alleviating pain and kinks. The idea that people would trust someone who’s practice derives from theories with no scientific or medical backing is preposterous, but far more is preposterous is the idea that people trust chiropractors with their spines. There is an episode of the Simpons either called “Pokey Mom” or “Chiro Town” is season 12 where Homer seeks a chiropractor to heal him and the chiropractor tells him to “see him 3 times a week for the rest of his life”. Homer finds that he can cure people himself by pushing them over a trashcan (while he pushes them he says ,”one,two, better not sue”‘.

I think that chiropractics helps, at least for the time being. I’ve never been to a chiropractor so i honestly couldn’t tell you. The short term effects appear to be good but who’s to say that they’re not tweaking something you’ll need to come back and see then for?

The Indian Association of Chiropractic Doctors (IACD) was accepted as a national member of the World Federation of Chiropractic (WFC) for India at the WFC meetings in Sydney, June 2005.

Under the Constitution and By-laws of the WFC as well as under the Tokyo Charter of the WFC, activities in India are intended to be vetted through the WFC member national association (IACD).

The World Federation of Chiropractic (WFC) represents the chiropractic profession internationally and is affiliated to World Health Organization (WHO). Chiropractic is recognized in 107 countries. WFC has national associations of Chiropractors in 85 countries as its voting members. Many individuals and organizations support its work as associate members. The WFC has been a non-governmental organization or NGO in official relations with the WHO since 1997, and collaborates with many similar associations representing other healthcare professions.

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Bill Kinsinger has had a hidden agenda against chiropractic for several years. He uses scare tactics and false statements to try and discredit our profession. Chiropractic is now the fastest growing health care system in the world. There are more people using chiropractic than ever before despite their non proven statements. There is no proof that chiropractic causes stoke or any of the conditions that have been previously stated. Chiropractic is the safest treatment for many conditions and the insurance example is appropriate. The number one killer in the country today is mis diagnosis and improper treatment by the medical profession. Thats why their insurance is so high. A chiropractor has never killed anyone. Dr. Kinsinger I would love to see a public debate. I will help in anyway I can. For the rest of you that are unsure go to chirostories.com. You will be suprised to find just how safe and effective chiropracic is.

this article was very interesting to me. especially how chiropractic was reintroduced.

Wow how misinformed this doctor is. I have working relationships with several MD’s and frequently co-manage certain case types. Just because you don’t understand the importance of having a structurally intact spine and how that impacts the function of the body’s nervous system doesn’t mean you need to attack the profession. There are good chiropractors and bad same as in the medical profession. I personally think there is a time and place for all forms of healthcare. You cannot deny the undeniable results that come from chiropractic and natural or alternative medicine.

I will admit I may be biased in my opinion, but chiropractic care is exceptionally helpful. Although it’s origins are very questionable, the fact that the bodies skeletal system can be moved out of a healthy position, and that a return of the system to a healthy position will be beneficial. Also, with other conditions affecting the body (non structural) a chiropractor claiming he can help may indeed help. It’s comonly known as the placebo effect, but research into concept therapy shows that a person can be healed if they believe or more appropriatley have improve chances of health.

I applaud Dr. Kinsinger’s efforts to inform and educate the public on the risks involved in chiropractic care. Throughout his video clip, Dr. Kinsinger presented clear examples of how dangerous these practices can be. Critical thinking and close examination of scientific data is essential when considering any alternative healthcare.

Amy–it’s nice to see a voice of reason, understanding, and critical thinking. His piece receives more criticism that accolades. Keep your skeptical eye! Bryan

dr. Kinsinger puts people to sleep for a living. Why anyone would listen to his uneducated opinion on chiropractic is beyond me. For over 100 years the medical profession has attacked the chiropractic profession and tried to discredit it. They fail everytime. drs like kinsiner give the health care field a bad name. His actions will take care of themselves. As for the rest of you who claim chiropractic is unscientific and has little benift or “placebo” explain why its the fastest growing health field in the world as well as the top 6 professions to be in. medical schools are now trying to teach chiropractic but they will fail at that as well. Read before you speak. It makes you sound smarter

Tim,

You state, in part, “…explain why its the fastest growing health field in the world…” So essentially you’re saying that if something is popular it must have strong scientific support to their claim. If that’s true, please show the strong scientific data supporting the wildly popular Acai berry and proponents’ claims that it leads to weight loss. I’ll await your answer.

Bryan

Until chiropractic care is supported by scientific proof, it is nothing more than pseudoscience. Being widely accepted and widely popular doesn’t make it right, and it certainly doesn’t make it scientific. I suspect people like chiropactic care because they are physically touched by the dr, and therefore feel healed. Unfortunaltely, this doesn’t make it healthy or medically-based.

Oh My God. To all of you who feel entitled to not only comment but profes to “know the truth” on this topic, I can only hope that those you actually love won’t ever be harmed by your ignorant, know-it-allness. What exactly is your background and education that gives you the understanding of what chiropractic is or even the basic fundamentals of anatomy and physiology? It is not, I’ll say it again, it is not the job of chiropractors to show you the science. Do a freakin literature search yourself. The information is out there in all the accepted medical peer-review publications, from the RAND Organization, public and non-profit sectors. I guess all the surgeons and medical doctors that refer patients to me and my chiro peers are stupid and much less informed that you, eh? What a dumb waste of time it is to try and discredit the industry. I suppose we should just take whatever drugs any MD prescribes without thinking twice about its safety and effects. Yet even as I make that statement, I not only DO NOT put down MDs but daily refer my own patients to them. Coexistence is possible without silly bashing. We should all advocate for ourselves and try our best to make educated, well researched health care decisions.

Thanks to all who have commented. Glad to see that we have stirred up a lively debate. Those of you who discount the connection between upper neck manipulation and stroke should pay close attention to the hearings that will take place during the first week of January, 2010 in Connecticut. There is a good chance that following these hearings, Connecticut chiro’s will be mandated by law to disclose to their prospective patients not only the risk of stroke/death associated with neck manipulation but also the reality that neck manip is essentially useless for 99% of the conditions for which it is promoted. And while we could debate the merits of chiro in general for days on end I always like to ask one simple question of those who advocate for D.D. Palmer and his legacy. If chiro has scientific merit, why is it that not a single University in the USA offers a program in chiro? Could the “medical bigots” possibly have that much influence?

I have personally tried chiropractic mode of treatment and this is really effective and I will definitely suggest that, although the article is also a very nice description too.

Amy,

Are you saying chiropractic, in general, is effective or the neck manipulation procedure, specifically?

Chiropractic mode of treatment is really effective and as I have used that after meeting with an accident two years before and this really cured me, well I can just add instead of going in the controversies there is a need of open debate on this topic.

.., I still don’t know what to believe in terms of chiropractic, but i have seen my friend using it and it works for her… now I am wondering if i should try it as well for my migraine…

TO ROCHESTER CHIROPRACTIC:

I’m not a physician, so understand I’m not qualified to advise or diagnose–but I’m curious what other avenues you’ve taken to address your migranes.

I think chiropractic medicine helps alleviate some pain and inflammation but I believe for the most part our bodies themselves “adjust” and correct.

I appreciate your statement, but I’m not sure it addressed my concern, “..I’m curious what other avenues you’ve taken to address your migranes.”

Dr. Kinsinger, I am not sure what your motive is to bash the chiropractic profession, but your thoughts and ideas are out of line. You say that the schools today still teach the way DD did in the early 1900′s. That shows how little you know about the actual schools themselves. DC’s will receive a similar education to that of an MD student. And you say the profession has no scientific evidence, but you are basing your rationale of a court case that hasn’t even happened yet. Both MD’s and DC’s have their place in the health care profession, I just don’t think you know where your place is. You will probably succeed in convincing a few people to stay away from DC’s, but rest assured there will be plenty of people who experience that benefits of chiropractic.

And to those of you who say there is no evidence, you can go to http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez and read thousands of articles that will verify the usefulness of chiropractic. It is great material if you have trouble falling asleep.

And to the person who was asking about migraines, my wife is off all meds and no longer gets migraines now that she gets adjusted regularly.

Josh,

Your opinions are obviously welcome here. You stated “DC’s will receive a similar education to that of an MD student.” I would encourage you to conduct a bit of research regarding educational requirements to get into chiropractic school vs. medical school. You might find a significant difference. I think chiropractic has its place, but Dr. Kinsinger especially warns of the neck adjustment–which I hope readers pay attention to.

Bryan

Many knew what chiropractic is, but they don’t know where it come from. I think they should go to this site and read this article. They will going to learn the history of chiropractic and many more.

Bryan,

I did the research for Josh. The requirements to get into the UT Southwestern School of Medicine are posted for you. The admission requirements for Cleveland Chiropractic are listed for you as well. It seems to me that most of this bulletin is filled with ignorance.I also whole heartedly believe that Dr. Kinsinger’s article is written with ignorance and lack of research. If medication was the answer to all of our health problems then wouldn’t the person who takes the most medications be the healthiest? It seems to me that it tends to be just the opposite.

Med: http://www.utsouthwestern.edu/utsw/cda/dept20676/files/397484.html

Chiro: http://cleveland.edu/academicPrograms/doctorOfChiropractic/admissionRequirements.aspx

While you’re at it please compare the curriculum for chiropractic students to that of med. students.

For med: http://www.utsouthwestern.edu/utsw/cda/dept20676/files/397484.html#curriculum

For Chiro: http://cleveland.edu/academicPrograms/doctorOfChiropractic/courseInformation.aspx

Wow Dr Kinsinger these are some pretty huge claims against my proffesion. Per the usual medical way you have no basis for your statements. Your ignorance shines through in your comments in regards to what we are and what we do. We dont claim to cure ANYTHING! Debateing an ignorant man would be fools play. You are simply trying to scare people into beleiveing a word you say. Chiropractors log many more hours in sciences in school than MD’s do. I will gladly give anyone who wants the exact numbers…I have them. Dr Kinsinger do you have any studies on your claims? Compare the loss of money on chiropractic care which on average runs the insurance companies $1500 a year and unneccesary surgeries that will average the insurance company $15,000 minimum. Your claim is absolutely moot.Funny thing here my friend is all the money you sink into slander tactics falls on deaf ears. There is no basis at all to your statements. God forbid it actually gets out that chiros log more school hours than meds do. You got us in the clinical side of things though. Where does cervical manipulation rank on the charts of death causes? This is the stupidest most ignorant website I have ever seen. Good luck to you doc and have fun makeing stuff up to scare people away from us. And thank you to the Medical proffesion for giveing me reasons to keep my patients away from you all. Read the book the chiropractic story than you can talk. Against years of slander chiropractic has survived and grown helping more people year after year with many conditions. The slander tactics of the AMA has already gone in front of the supreme court….how did that end? I like the idea of a debate no chiro in their right mind would turn that down. If you truely beleive your claims here is your chance….set up the debate with Dr. Young and others. THERE IS NO BASIS FOR THE CERVICAL MANIPULATION EVEN BEING IN THE TOP 50 CAUSES OF ARTERIAL DISECTION!!!

Bryan, I am glad you brought that up. Seeing as how I am a student at Parker, I have already done a lot of research into the educational requirements. All you have to do is look at the curriculum of the the schools side by side, which I did before I enrolled at Parker. Are the identical, no. But they are similar.

I want to add to my earlier post…I do not in any way hate the medical proffession. I know some very good people who are awesome MD’s and great great people. I dont think they would want one of theirs laying claims like this guy lays.

Dr. Kinsinger, I am curious to see where you have found this information. I read your paragraph above, and it seems sketchy that you can feel so secure trying to discredit a MEDICAL practice that has been prospering for over 100 years. Your information is extremely vague, and you give no sources of the quotes in your claim! I am fairly certain that even an average high school level student would be clever enough to at least show ONE source to validate their propaganda. Please, by all means, post an additional paragraph on your webpage explaining your lackluster performance in this debate, and try to add ACTUAL facts discrediting chiropractic treament. However, you will NOT be able to do so. So, have a Merry Christmas, Dr.(debatable) Kinsinger. Sincerely, Seth Ryan.

Wow, this is really getting interesting. I think I will try to address the educational comparisons. Comparing “classroom hours” of chiropractic and medical students is essentially pointless. Chiropractic admission requirements are a total joke especially when compared to medical school requirements. Most chiropractic applicants would not even be granted an interview to medical school, much less be admitted. If anyone wants to dispute this we can post the current CCE requirements for all to see. So right off the bat we are starting with a totally different kind of student. Classes at chiro programs may have names that sound similar to those of medical schools but the last time I visited Palmer, the “fountainhead” of chiro education, I learned that classes like anatomy and physiology were taught from a “chiropractic perspective”. I guess this means that the whole focus of these classes is the search for the mythical “subluxation”. Give me a break. Chiro students may learn a reasonable amount of basic sciences but they have absolutely no opportunity to apply this knowledge clinically without the benefit of actual sick patients to evaluate and treat. Many if not most of the “patients” encountered in chiro training are friends or relatives of the students, hardly the same type of patients medical students care for in VA or University hospitals. Doctors don’t learn to care for sick folks by reading about them in a book or having a small group discussion, we learn by caring for them. Lastly, medical students graduate after four years of intense training and receive a degree. At that point more than 95% of these grads enter a residency program which entails another three to ten years of supervised and very focused training before beginning their actual practice. Chiro students on the other hand, with only rare exception, go immediately to the strip mall to begin their practice. No comparison.

And another thing. I am curious why none of my critics are interested in answering the simple question I posed in an earlier post. If chiro is a legitimate healing art, why is there not a single chiro program at a public university in the United States?

That’s funny. I don’t see one bit of research or peer reviewed journal articles referenced to back up your claims. Quit hiding behind your hatred of anything that is not medicine. If this is all true and not just your opinion, print the research and prove it. If you do a little research, you will find your chance of serious injury and death is much higher if you visit a medical doctor than chiropractor – Fact. Just ask the malpractice attorneys.

I am curious how this next comment will go over. A gentleman named Tim Young has made a few posts and in one of them he casually suggests some sort of a “public debate”. I am wondering is he is serious. If so perhaps Dr. Farha would consider arranging such a debate on the campus of OCU? I’m am willing Tim, are you? If this makes you uncomfortable I would be willing to engage in debate with anyone representing your profession.

same reason you have not posted any facts to backup your statements.

How bout articles by authors such as Rothwell and Lee in journals like Neurology and Stroke or the dozens of articles published by Edzard Ernst? All of these articles make it clear that neck manipulation is a rare but well documented cause of stroke. Or what about the published works of retired Florida chiropractor Samuel Homala including his relatively recent article published in a prestigious journal of orthopedic surgery? And while it does not focus on stroke, what do you folks think about Don Murphy and his August 2008 piece in Chiropractic and Osteopathy? Even better, the “hot off the press” December 2009 submission to Chiropractic & Osteopathy which stabs a dagger deep into the heart of the chiropractic subluxation.

You cannot get a spinal manipulation or adjustment at a medical doctors office because they are not trained properly to do it. They don’t know how. PTs are not licensed or trained either. A few DOs do it, but not well. If you wanted to get a spinal or extremity adjustment – would you rather go to the doctors who train four years specifically to do it (chiropractic) or a guy who takes one course in school (osteopaths). I would not go to a chiropractor for surgery or dental work. Why do MDs like this guy think they know everything about health or what it means to be healthy? Medical doctors and surgeons are referring their patients to chiropractors now more than ever before. Why refer their family, friends, and patients for chiropractic care if they fear it so much?

Your information you are typing is so off it’s laughable. It is amazing how someone can hide behind a keyboard and type away, but I know there is no way you would get into a public debate with any of the stuff you are trying to ensue. I don’t know what you did at Palmer, or why you would even visit a place you have so much hatred toward, but my anatomy course was not geared towards chiropractic. It was actually taught by a retired MD who previously taught the same course at a med school in Dallas. Just another lie that you can add to your list. And what sense would it make for a public university to start a chiropractic program. It is no secret that there are far more med students than chiropractic students. The medical profession is more widespread in different areas to practice, thus the need for all of the different schools. I am not really sure what your point to that is though. I guess your goal is to try and make the medical profession seem far superior to chiropractic. What ever makes you sleep better at night I guess.

Let’s be clear, chiro has lots of problems. If chiro would shift its focus and concentrate on the legitimate use of spinal manipulative therapy in the treatment of musculoskeltal ailments I would have to find a new hobby. Unfortunately the profession appears to be totally devoted to trying to become “primary care physicians” with the ability to manage any type of disease. My biggest concerns are chiro pediatrics, the prevalent anti-vax philosophy, and the very real phenomenon of neck manip and stroke. For those of you stroke deniers, do you even pay attention to experts in your own field? Have you not seen the John Triano power point presentation? Have you not read the 2006 NCMIC monograph devoted to cervical arterial incidents following spinal manipulation?

Bill,

The last time they tried to put a chiropractic program in a public university a few medical doctors threw a complete shit fit and threatened to walk. They threatened this and that about funding and endowments. It was the medical doctors that kept it out in Florida. There are programs currently underway to merge and mingle training within professions. Chiropractors don’t want to practice medicine. Nothing personal against you, you’re probably a fine guy. There are a lot of brilliant chiropractors that could have gone to any med school they wanted, but not all want to be endoctrinated into Big Pharmas ideas of what makes a person healthy. I welcome your opposing view of chiropractic benefits, that’s how progress is made. But using unfounded fear and scare tactics to keep someone away from a treatment that may help them is against the Hippocratic Oath.

This is for Mr. Innate. Bad news, PT’s are true experts in SMT. You want to argue that? Lets look at who is responsible for the vast majority of the legitimate literature on the subject particular the “clinical prediction rule”.

its not all about science doc…we have results that speak for themselves. Our research occurs daily in our offices….if it didnt work or was pure quackery…there would be no chiropractic for you to make up stuff about….but as DR Young stated earlier it is the fastest growing health care proffession in the world.

Wes, I appreciate your honesty. Science be damned, “chiropractic works”. I actually talk about this in my presentations around the country. You have pointed to the heart of the problem. Chiropractic is much less of a health care profession than a philosophical belief system based on the ridiculous ideas (subluxation anyone) of an uneducated Iowa grocer. Like the AMA in the 1960′s I prefer to refer to it as a cult.

And for you Josh, I cant believe you doubt my willingness to debate you or any one of your colleagues in a public forum. I am eager to engage in such a debate. Give me reasonable notice and I will meet you anywhere you choose

Did you really just state that PT’s are the true experts in SMT? Than why does medicare or any other insurance company not pay them for it? They dont pay me for surgery because I dont know how….they dont pay you for adjusting because you dont know how!

What honesty all I said was it is not all about science. There are many research studies proveing the effectiveness of chiropractic…one such aired on dateline in regards to chiro care and blood pressure…I believe that it was done with the assistance of a MD. By the way it proved that 1 cervical adjustment lowered the blood pressure of 50 people by an average of 16 points. Sorry we dont have anything to prove this quackery works. Just because the medical profession doesnt accept it as research does not make it so. Why would you all accept any of our research on the effectiveness of what we do….it would eat into your wallet…and obviously ego.

There is a difference between joint mobilization (what PTs do) and spinal adjustments which are far more specific. My wife is a PT. I know exactly what they know and don’t know. PTs are not trained to diagnose – in fact it is illegal for them to do so. They don’t look at x-rays. So why would I want them to touch my spine? Especially based on the referral from the MD that didn’t touch my spine and didn’t look at my x-rays. He just read the radiology report and wanted me to take the drugs and do some exercises. Explain to me how that discredits chiropractors? Seems to me the chiropractors are 1) better prepared to independently case manage 2) have a higher satisfaction rate for spine cases. That is a Rand study. It’s well known that PTs have wanted to do spinal adjustments for years. If your hypothesis is true, why would they seek to do something so blatantly dangerous and risk their livelihood? Better leave it to the true experts. Chiropractors have been doing it successfully for years. Is there a jackass bad chiropractor who might hurt someone out there? Of course – they are in every profession, including medicine. It doesn’t make it any worse/better if it’s a chiro or md that hurts someone. I think you’re barking up the wrong tree on this issue Bill.

Physical Therapists all have exposure in their training to SMT. While not all of them utilize this form of therapy in their practice some of them have devoted additional training to these techniques and are legitimate experts and can legally provide SMT in all but a handful of states. As I stated previously, the majority of the high quality research into SMT has been done by PT’s, certainly all the work related to the “clinical prediction rule” for low back pain was done exclusively by PT’s. As far as diagnosis, no question PT’s do not place any emphasis on identification of “subluxation”, but then again the chiropractic industry is slowing and painfully loosening their grip on this particular hoax as we ease into the 21st century. Regarding the use of radiographic techniques, this is of very little value in the management of acute low back pain, the condition for which SMT has the most validity. So in summary PT’s are scientifically trained high quality practitioners who are licensed to provide SMT and do so daily in most states as a legitimate therapy for musculoskeletal ailments, primarily acute low back pain. They are also dedicated researchers on the cutting edge of this type of therapy. As far as the risk, my greatest concern is related to upper cervical manipulation. PT’s are well aware of the potential hazards of upper cervical manipulation and only resort to manipulation of this area as a “last resort” after all other more conservative efforts have failed, their techniques also tend to be more “gentle and controlled”. By contrast, most chiropractors see upper cervical manipulation as the single most valuable technique in their arsenal. BJ Palmer was the original proponent of the “hole in one technique” stating that if you “adjusted” the uppermost part of the neck everything else would more or less fall in to place. In my role as a victim’s advocate for those who have suffered stroke following chiropractic neck manipulation I have seen dozens of cases where upper neck manipulation was utilized for conditions for which this technique could not possibly offer any value such as low back pain, hip pain, and even knee pain. I am even aware of a chiropractor in Maryland who in the course of his malpractice trial following the death of a 39 year old healthy man admitted that the only treatment he utilized was upper neck manipulation regardless of the condition for which the patient presented. The unfortunate man in question was being “treated” for low back pain and suffered bilateral carotid artery dissection within minutes of having his neck manipulated. For those of you who continue to dispute the link between chiropractic and stroke/death I could “HIPPA-proof” this gentleman’s death certificate and show it to you along with dozens of others in my possession.

I would like to take a break from the ongoing discussion and let you guys in on a little secret. I don’t have anything against any of you as individuals, many of you are likely honest people doing your best in your efforts to provide patient care. Unfortunately your education and training are for the most part deeply flawed and not scientifically based. My primary concerns are with subluxation based chiro and the basic tenets which have sustained the industry for its first 115 years. Daniel David Palmer was an uneducated quack, plain and simple. His nonsensical ideas of innate intelligence, subluxations, adjustments, etc. have no merit. Chiropractors do not have the type of training that would allow them to be legitimate primary care physicians, evaluating and treating the entire spectrum of human disease. Chiropractors have no business “treating” conditions like asthma, epilepsy, or any other non-musculoskeletal disorder. They certainly have no business offering any type of negative advice regarding immunization and vaccination. The chiropractic industry has been far too slow to acknowledge the very real phenomenon of stroke following upper neck manipulation. There are chiropractors in every community who use spinal manipulative therapy in the legitimate treatment of musculoskeletal ailments. When the chiropractic community as a whole follows this model I will have no further concerns and can move on to another hobby or passion. Until that time I will continue to challenge those pro-subluxation, anti-vaccination zealots, and shine a bright spotlight on the dangers and quackery associated with these concepts and practices.

Doc…thanks for the compliment on your last post. I dont think we care if you think we are good people. You are trying to scare people into beleiving we are undereducated quacks….nothing you can say can make that change our opinion of you. So you are so into science I will pose a question to you…in your “study” you did by entering into a chiros office….you entered a doctors office and told the female chiro that you smoked 2 packs of cigarettes a day…which you do NOT…drink a bunch…which you do NOT….had chest pain on the left….which you did NOT…and pain near the arm on the left…which you did NOT. She than did an exam of which you discredit because of where she placed the stethescope (you being of higher brain power caught this immediatley). She than went on to give the diagnosis of a spinal misalignment or subluxation. Here is my question…HOW IS THAT A WRONG DIAGNOSIS? You laugh at her for not finding your angina….but you DIDNT have angina! You laugh because she came back to you after a pause and said…WEIRD! Well when people come in who are full of it how do you treat them…oh wait you dont you just put them to sleep. If you had entered my office in your “scientific” experiment….I would have told you to get a good laxative because you are full of **it! You have shown you are willing to lie to get what you want with this “experiment” now do the exact same thing to an MD and see what you walk out with. There are risks involved in all that we do…but you constantly discredit us and are willing to give credit to PT’s who’s schooling is much less than ours….this proves a deffiniative distaste for us as chiros and people. Your notions have no basis…PT’s can NOT perform SMT in this state…period. They do not charge for it and medicare will not cover it if performed by them. They may say they can and think they can and some even do it….but they dont bill it that way. As a matter of fact I would be willing to bet that most injuries due to manipulation are performed by DO’s or PT’s. I know thousands of chiros who treat hundreds a day and not ONE SINGLE PATINET…let me repeat and be clear…NOT ONE SINGLE PATIENT has EVER had an injury like you state. Combine that with the average of 10 years of practice amongst these guys and you still get a whopping 0 injuries. You have a hate for what we do and for that I feel sorry for you as you are very ignorant! Nothing you can do will ruin this proffession it is an awesome one full of very educated people….as to our famed founder….I my self worked as a grocer before becomeing a chiro. Stop manipulateing your words just to try to persuade people you are right…..That my friend is the deffinition of a CULT leader! You are a very ignorant man on the subject of chiropractic.

Please remember – generally the whole point of this type of attack is to get a “Rise” out of chiropractors and make them behave in ways that are unbecoming to their profession. The real problem is that the medical profession does not understand or accept chiropractic. It sees us as an oddity. Like most people, they are afraid of things that they cannot explain or understand. Medical doctors are just that… people. Please do not forget that. They also do not want to loose any of the medical “pie” so to speak. If we are sought after as primary doctors, what might happen to the medical profession?

Bill also was quick to lump people who perform upper cervical adjustments (which he considers “unsafe”) into a category with “anti-vaccination” proponents, though this has yet to be addresed. Personally, I am not a big fan of vaccines. If you would like to talk about pseudo-science, there’s a good place to look at your own practices. For starters, you degrade chiropractic because it’s founder was “An uneducated grocer”. However, the entire practice of vaccination was made up one day by a non-doctor deciding that if he injected cowpox pus into a healthy person, they would become immune to a very serious illness, smallpox. The problem with this theory is – you don’t develop immunity to one disease by injecting yourself with a disease with a similar name. This practice was continued for decades with documented horrible side effects.

I have seen some pretty amazing things in my personal practice. Things that Bill obviously believes shoudn’t exist. I have seen children with a long history of chronic ear infections and completely resolved within weeks. I have had patients with decades of headaches on a near daily basis go months without a single episode. In no way am I stating that every disease can be cured though chiropractic. What I am saying is that the brain communicates to the body though the nervous system. If there are problems with that communication and these problems are removed, I can’t imagine that not helping. Can it cure cancer? Can it cause an asthmatic to be cured? We shall see.

The medical profession is old… much older than our profession. There is a ton of money poured into medicine that simply isn’t available to the chiropractic profession. Unfortunately, you cannot bottle and sell chiropractic – so the pharmaceutical companies are not interested. The medical profession is way more widespread and more ingrained into the public mind. You have hundreds and hundreds of years on our profession. Yet you ask us to produce the same research, results, and backing? That is like telling a 5 year old playing t-ball to go hit for the majors.

On one other point I saw addressed above. The insurance comment above does reference the “safety” factor. If he hurt/killed people like you say we did, our malpractic would be significantly higher. I’m not saying that the insurance premiums being low mean that we are somehow “better doctors”, it’s simply a measure of risk. And on the comparison, I have a very good friend down the street from my office who is a general practic MD in his own clinic (No surgery, no hospital, etc). His malpractic runs aproximatly 20X mine. There are also several resources that I’m sure you are aware of that show medical errors/mistakes killing (not injuring… killing) 100,000+ people per year.

Sometimes I just cannot understand why the medical profession fights us so hard. I mean, yes…. I realize it will cut into their profits, but my only goal is to help people and according to their oath, that should be something they support.

The simple fact is some people tend to see the glass of water as half empty and some see it as half full. Instead of provoking fear in regards to the ” small amount of people that have a stroke after twisting their upper neck”, maybe we should look at the benefits of Chiropractic! The success stories are endless!!! The fact of the matter is that if we told everyone the rare possibilites of injury for everything they do, everyone would cease to get out of bed in the morning. I am a Chiropractor and I love what I do! To take more time than this to debate these issues,takes away from my patients time, and that is what it’s all about is the PATIENT, I hope everyone agrees with that!! Merry Christmas & God Bless!

Vernon, what you are missing is that the real issue in regards to chiropractic induced stroke is the risk benefit ratio. I have never suggested that stroke is a common result of upper neck manipulation. What I contend is that there is very limited evidence of benefit for the use of upper neck manipulation for any condition and virtually zero evidence of benefit for many of the conditions for which it is regularly utilized by chiropractors. While we may never know that actual incidence of stroke following neck manipulation, we know that it does occur. Estimates range from 1/5,000 to 1/2,000,000. In her 2002 piece, Rothwell put the estimate at around 1/80,000, and this is a well accepted number in the scientific community. The really scary part is that the majority of victims are otherwise healthy young women ranging in age from 20-45. Those unlucky enough to suffer this consequence will suffer profound and often permanent neurologic injury or death. So back to our mention of risk benefit ratio. If the benefit is close to zero and the risk is “rare” but devastating, this is unacceptable. Does this mean that neck manipulation should be banned? Not necessarily, although as you can imagine it would not hurt my feelings. What is clear is that at the very least, potential victims ought to at least be aware not only of the serious nature of the potential risk but of the reality of the potential benefit or lack thereof. In medicine, we call this informed consent, and it has much less to do with having the patient sign a form than it does with an honest discussion with the patient. Unfortunately, the chiropractic industry is digging in its heals and essentially refusing to disclose this information to their patient population. One can only imagine why the industry has taken this stance. As I mentioned earlier, we all should have our eyes on Connecticut as “mandated” informed consent for chiropractic will be in the courts in January, 2010.

What about the risk benefit ratio of takeing asprin? The research is out there on the benefit of cervical adjustments, that you say there is a lack there of. You are unwilling to accept that though, or even look it up. Please those of you who think for a second that this man wants to try to get us as chiros to simply act out of character….reread the opening statement made by this man. He wants to kill our profession. He thinks we are quacks. He thinks there is absolutely no validity to our profession. Doc dont try to hide behind your words, unless they are lies, you do not see any affectiveness in our profession whatsoever. Dont make this just about cervical manipulation….if that was the case than why did you print what you printed to start and why do you teach what you teach in your “seminars”. Where is the proof that most of these patients who receive neck adjustments came in for lower back pain?
I will not in any way associate what you are doing to the thoughts of any of the great people I know in the medical profession. they seek out answers…you make up lies and than teach others your lies. You are a rogue agent for your profession and in the vast minority.
As Vernon pointed out if we knew the risks of everything we would not get out of bed in the morning. Your focus, Bill, is not on informing patients on the risks of healthcare accidents….or benefit risk ratios….but on the unaffectiveness of chiorpractic care…and the possibility of death from it. Your focus as an oath abideing doctor should be towards protecting and educateing your patients on the risks of everything….why do you focus on just my profession? Do you view yours as flawless? You have already stated you view yourself as much higher educated than me. The vast majority of deaths due to any form of healthcare come from your profession not mine…so why than did you choose to “educate” people on the possible risks of mine? If you are this kind hearted man just trying to help people and make this world a better place than start researching pharmacuticals and their affect on the death tole in the US.

After spending the week treating patients and talking to several doctors in the medical as well as the chiropractic proffession it has occured to me that this is a waste of time. We as chiropractors do not need fabricated “research” to hide behind in order to prove to the public that what we do is right. Our results speak for themselves. I have spent several hours talking with the top researchers in the country and they all agree on one thing. No matter what is presented in open debate or on paper, nothing will change the mind of the narrow few. It is a battle that is not worth fighting because the only true battle is in the minds of a very small majority. The energy of all chiropractors should be put into getting sick people well. just as we have for over 100 years. I will no longer waste my time or energy with this web site or this topic. For the past 14 years my office has grown because of my passion and results. I will continue treating the sick and educating all that I can. I only wrote this for the chiros who read this “garbage” as a er doctor I spoke with put it, and want to chime in. Use your time and energy more wisely. Get everyone you can well. Thats is how it has always been and how it will always be the best way to promote this incredible profession we call Chiropractic!

Gosh, is this the same Tim Young that I spoke with on the phone just 48 hours ago? I thought we had agreed that we were going to work on scheduling a debate where we could discuss the merits of chiropractic in general and your outspoken anti-vaccination stance in particular. I am still open to a public debate with you or any of the “top researchers in the country”. I hope you will reconsider. It sounds to me like you are falling back on the standard chiropractic mantra, “chiropractic works”. For those of you unfamiliar with this slogan, “chiropractic works” essentially means the following. “I am not interested in scientific studies, I believe in chiropractic, I have dozens of patients who will offer testimonials, and that is good enough for me”

Wes, you are not doing yourself any favors with your discussion of my undercover work. In the infamous “angina episode” the problem with the chiropractic evaluation was not that her cardiac auscultation skills were rather embarrassing, and they were, it was that she failed to recognize the symptoms of a life threatening emergency. I’ve got a news flash for you Wes, you don’t “find” angina on a physical exam, even a legitimate one, you put it on the top of a differential diagnosis when a patient has symptoms similar to those I described especially when combined with certain risk factors, like smoking. And once you have even the slightest suspicion of acute angina you get that patient to a cardiologist immediately, that is if you are a competent qualified physician. Rather than looking for “subluxations” this chirobabe should have been dialing 911. The take home message here is that chiropractic education in no way prepares the practitioner to be a “primary care physician”. Any 2nd year medical student would have had a patient with this type of presentation on their way to the nearest emergency room in a matter of minutes. And none of this is intended to disparage the individual chiropractic practitioners, it is not you who are at fault, rather it is your education. How could anyone possibly expect any of you to have developed the skills necessary to evaluate and treat non-musculoskeletal ailments when you have never had any medical training or education? And speaking of education, your suggestion that you have a superior education to a PT is laughable, I suggest you take another look at this before any further discussion. And one more thing Wes, you seem to have found a great interest in my undercover work. If you want to offer any further critique, I have audio tapes from several dozen chiro visits going back to the late 1980′s where I presented with diagnoses of such things as leukemia, epilepsy, asthma, appendicitis, and even impotence. As you have suggested, I fortunately don’t have any of these afflictions, but in each and every case the chiropractor in question identified one or more “vertebral subluxations” and suggested that I begin long term treatment consisting exclusively of chiropractic “adjustments”.

I would like to address Dr. Pertree for a moment. Sir, it seems as though you like so many of your brethren have an anti-vaccination bias. Lets be clear, our system of vaccinations/immunization is without question the single most important public health measure in the last century. For you to continue and push this anti-vax agenda is in my opinion bordering on criminal. You and your colleagues have no business offering advice to anxious and naive young parents regarding this subject. Stick to what you know, back pain. And unless I am mistaken you seem to suggest that perhaps chiropractic might offer “cures” for ear infection, asthma, and even cancer???? Sounds like you have been drinking the “chiropractic works” Kool-Aid. And how many times do we need to address the comparison of liability rates for physicians as compared to chiropractors. Physicians care for critically ill hospitalized patients often in their last days of life and perform a wide array of risky, invasive procedures. There is significant risk in almost everything we do, no denying that. Chiropractors on the other hand care for an essentially healthy outpatient population most of which are suffering from only musculoskeletal ailments. A much more appropriate comparison would be that of chiropractors to PT’s, and here we would find similar liability premiums. We physicians do not deny that many of the things we do are quite frankly dangerous. Encountering “bad outcomes” is an unfortunate part of what we do, but we take a different approach. Rather than burying our heads in the sand, we acknowledge the risks and make decisions on treatment based on the assessment of the risk/benefit ratio. There are never any guarantees, but at least we have provided the patient with all the information and allowed them to make a decision before undergoing any treatment.

My chiropractic practice is built on referrals from patients and medical doctors. I have treated many physicians, surgeons, radiologist, med students, etc. They refer to me/chiropractic when they have a complicated case or they believe chiropractic can help them. They refer a lot. The medical doctors send in their family and friends. I am sure that irks guys like Bill who thinks chiropractors are quacks. There are a few MDs that still hate chiropractic, but most of the younger medical guys see it as a valuable profession, use it, and refer to it. There are still some old dinosaurs like Bill around spreading the same old stuff we have heard forever. All chiropractors have heard this propaganda and just ignore it. We know what we fo helps thousands of people. I have helped so many people that my good friends in medicine could not – I could write a book. Like the business owner who after neck surgery could not use her hand because it was paralyzed. The surgeon said wait two years and see if it comes back. She made a miraculous recovery with chiropractic care. She credits chiropractic more than any medicine. No chiropractor has a huge media campaign, yet we are succesful. How could a profession survive without any advertising? RESULTS. People are excited when they feel better and tell everyone they know. If it was a sham like Bill suggested, there wouldn’t be a chiropractor around. Chiropractors are very educated and caring people that are in the business to help their fellow man. I don’t understand why a few of these medical docs still don’t get it. To the general public – when your medical doctor won’t listen and you feel like you are not getting results – try chiropractic. It works! It’s much better than getting a stomach ulcer from Ibuprofen and dying – like 16,000 people do every year. Last time I checked I didn’t have to sign informed consent to buy Ibuprofen or any other medication. Explain that? How many people actually know that Ibuprofen causes ulcers? Or that Celebrex increases your risk of heart attack and stroke. My medical friends certainly don’t tell their patients this when they prescribe them. Most patients are shocked when I tell them. There is a place for everything Bill. Chiropractic will continue to thrive, despite guys like Billy the bully. No worries mate.
To my chiro friends: don’t waste anymore time on this guy, he won’t change his mind. Let’s seek out and work with those great open-minded medical docs that get it and want to help people get better. There are more of them than guys like Bill.

I just had to leave a comment. I am not a medical doctor but my brother is. My uncle has been an acupuncturist for 35 years. My best friend in undergard in now in chiropractic college. He was not a person who failed to get into DO/MD school. He is a triathlete and loves fitness and played college ball. He wanted to become a chiropractor because he likes to work with fellow atheletes. His GPA was around 3.8. He is a smart guy and his father graduated from Stanford. Comes from a great family and really caring parents. He like to volunteer in races to raise money for poor families and childrens hospitals. When I asked him why he did not want to be a medical doctor he told me that he hated my older brother for beating us in ball all the time! He also enjoys debating him a lot. All for fun and well competition. He thinks a chiropractor can play a great role in supportive prevention based type of primary care. Kind of like he frames a Healthy Life Doctor. I kinda like the ring myself. My brother has no problem with this especially if the patients are also seeing a MD or DO for care.

I will also state that chiropractic college is not joke. I mean he knows his stuff. I also know that he will more that be over qualified to recognize when a patient needs a MD/DO consult. My mom is a RN and she even knows when to refer to a MD or DO. Make no mistake about it my best bud is going to be a great healthcare provider and welcome friend to any MD or DO. The guy is sincere to the heart. My brother has allowed him to shadow him during exams. My brother also thinks that every chiropractic student could use a chance to shadow a MD or DO while in school. So why do the medical community not allow this? I find this fact very distasteful and wrong. I hope this changes in the future. My friend is reason you cannot label all chiropractors like you do. It is just wrong and I would not expect that from a physician that we are suspose to look up to in society. I know my brother does not like it either and says it would not be tolerated in any type of healthcare setting. I mean come on, these people have children and mothers and fathers who could read this stuff. Do you know what it is like to be discriminated against because of your race or belief? This is bad practice very bad practice and should not be allowed from any physicians that we look up to, to save our lives or loved ones. It is just really upsetting to see so much bad stuff against so many people you do not even know. Just because chiropractic college is not as hard to get into as medical school, does not mean that the people wanting to become chiropractors are less of a person. You cannot compare entrance requirements of medical school to anything else it is not fair. Medcial doctors are required to save lives and chiropractor are not. This is really sad to see coming from someone like yourself. Who has and advantage above other people.

Also if neck manipulation is really that dangerous? Then do it at a low force or provide tests to rule it out. Or even send them to a licensed acupuncturist, my uncle has never injured anyone. In fact he only treats patient who have not responded to any western training and are either in end life or everyone else gave up on them. But he gets results and helps increase their quality of life. For cacner patients who cannot live with the symptoms he has been a second family to them. Medical doctors and chiropractors refer to him. Even medical oncologists do.

To also correct everyone here, one of the oldest forms of medicine is oriental medicine. Just thought you would like to know.

I hope someone does debate this medical doctor as racism and hate will always show up in a public forum.

Everyone has a place in society especially in healthcare. For Dr. Kinsinger to act this way is just not right. It is wrong and I really felt the need to set things strait. I remember when acupuncturists were being jailed in California (well my family does) I was too young. They call them all types of things and had really bad opinion of what they called Asians. Yet Asians had used Oriental Medicine for close to 5000 years to some degree. To treat almost anything. It was Gov Jerry Brown who saw that this was wrong. Now a days medical doctors use it and swear by it. My uncle teaches a many medical physicians. My brothers friends also think highly of it. So why the hatred against chiropractors?

I will actually pray for you Dr Kinsinger, as I know from working for my uncle as a little kid, that hatred and anger will eventually get the best of your health. Remember a good gesture and friendly spirit goes a long ways

Hong

Also wanted to correct everyone. My friend told me that a new chiropractor college do exist in FL at a State College/University, its a new program in St Pete. Also University of Bridgeport and I think one at some place in NY have Chiropractic program and also PA program.

Also hope everyone have good new year and make your dreams come true and help people in community.

Also because it very angry here, laughter go long way. So I will leave you with an old saying from my uncle

“He who eat many prunes will sit on toilet for many moons”

See not hard to smile after all. I always found this funny as kid when patients see uncle with diarrhea and uncle tell them this.

Don’t give up chiropractors I hope best for you and my best bud this year

I thought it might be helpful to let everyone read a piece from a Connecticut newspaper written a few days ago and which focuses on the hearings held this week before the state chiro board. Let me know what you all think. Here is the link to the piece.

http://www.courant.com/news/connecticut/hc-chiropractors-green-1229dec29-col,0,6549282.column

Here is another. Enjoy.

http://www.nashuatelegraph.com/news/statenewengland/513945-227/conn.-chiropractic-board-to-consider-stroke-risk.html

More news from Connecticut.

http://www.courant.com/news/connecticut/hc-chiropractors-green-0105.artjan05,0,3722041.column

Sounds like the media in Connecticut are convinced that chiro neck twisting may be somewhat risky after all. Are you guys sure you want to keep defending your stance that chiro is totally safe and “natural”? It could get ugly if 60 Minutes decides to take an interest in this issue.

http://blogs.courant.com/bob_englehart/2010/01/january-6-2010.html

Nice try ” Debbie”

Dr Kinsinger –
How would you address someone like ME specifically? After YEARS of visiting a local MD, and a Navy MD for a service related injury – I was STILL left with pain in my back, and loss of feeling/tingling in the last 3 fingers of each hand.

I took THOUSANDS of pills, hundreds of hours of PT, and was laid up for weeks.

Both Doctors were recommending FUSION surgery – something that I have heard a multitude more horror stories about than chiropractic!

Fearing the surgery – I went against “my better judgement” at the time – and visited a Chiropractor. Within 3 visits – I had regained the feeling in my hands, LOST (not masked with pills – LOST) most of the pain in my back, and was a full 3/4″ TALLER! No pills. No surgery.

Yes – every now and then, I have to go back for an adjustment – but I don’t LIVE with the pain anymore. Even better – I didn’t have to have that awful Fusion surgery!

How would you address that Dr Kinsinger?

Norm, I am thrilled about your success but this does not change the reality that a small but very certain percentage of patients who have their necks manipulated will suffer life changing strokes. These unfortunate people and their families only wish that they had been warned of this devasting possibility. Good luck to you in the future and know that I agree that facing spine surgery is not a good option at all and should be avoided if at all possible, unfortunately sometimes it is truly neccessary

http://www.acatoday.org/press_css.cfm?CID=3769 A MUST READ

Hey Bill to your statement “If chiro has scientific merit, why is it that not a single University in the USA offers a program in chiro? Could the “medical bigots” possibly have that much influence?”. By this statement do you mean accredited, public, or what? All the recognized chiro schools in the US are accredited by the same bodies that accredit other university. If you mean public then Harvard is not a real school. So what do you mean? Southern California University of Health Sciences? etc etc.

Bill your statement “does not change the reality that a small but very certain percentage of patients who have their necks manipulated will suffer life changing strokes.” So should we then not use treatment that “a small but very certain percentage” will be effected by? I have news for you your profession on a regular basis uses dangerous and frequently unnecessary treatments that do major damage and causes death. What exactly makes you an expert on chiropractic anyway?

Hey JR, there is not a single legitimate public or private University in the United States that offers a program in chiropractic. The program that almost materialized at Florida State University in 2004 would have been the first but once the academic community realized the damage that would have been done to the academic integrity of that fine institution they rebelled against the politicians who had mandated this program and stopped it dead in its tracks. Chiropractic is without scientific basis and is really nothing more than a philosophical belief system or even more accurately, a cult. A popular cartoon in Tallahassee during the FSU chiro debate depicted the chiro building in the same area with the Bigfoot Institute and the Center for UFO Studies.

As for the dangers associated with conventional medicine, you are certainly correct, it is dangerous business. Dealing with extremely ill patients and those suffering from severe trauma will always involve a high degree of risk. Many of our treatments and interventions are inherently risky as well. In our world we make every effort to evaluate each treatment decision based on an analysis of the risk/benefit ratio. We also use informed consent as a way of allowing the patient and or their family to assist with the decision making process after considering the risks, benefits, and alternatives to treatment. Are there bad outcomes in medicine? Of course there are. Do they sometimes involve human error? Certainly. But in medicine if we identify a certain drug or therapy that does not have a favorable risk/benefit ratio we will quickly abandon it. There are dozens of examples of this but one of the more recent examples is the drug Vioxx. Vioxx is actually an excellent NSAID which offered amazing relief to thousands of patients suffering from severe arthritic conditions. Unfortunately, there was evidence that it was associated with a very slight, but documented risk of increase in cardiovascular disease. As soon as this evidence was clear, the FDA became involved and the drug was quickly abandoned never to return. Make no mistake, Vioxx is an excellent and unique drug with huge benefit potential. Yet the risks were determined to be unacceptable and it will never be seen again. If chiropractic upper neck manipulation were a drug, the FDA would have banned it decades ago. Unfortunately, there is no FDA equivalent for chiropractic. It is a completely self-governed industry and the foxes are guarding the henhouse. They will never abandon upper neck manipulation for to do so would be to abandon chiropractic itself.

As far as my qualifications to critique chiropractic, lets just say I have spent over twenty years educating myself in the history, educational standards, and practice patterns of chiropractic. I would challenge you or anyone to demonstrate that any of my statements are inaccurate. I remain open to debate publicly any representative of the industry. Recently Timmy Young, a local practitioner, challenged me to such a debate but once I accepted and offered to arrange the event he quietly stepped back into the shadows. Am I an expert? Maybe not but then why do you guys waste so much time worrying about what I say regarding chiro?

Here you go JR. Just for fun. http://skeptico.blogs.com/photos/uncategorized/chiromap_1.gif

In case there is any confusion, the previous link is the infamous “revised FSU campus map” prepared by a local chemistry professor during the chiro debate. Enjoy.

Sorry Bill, still no credible evidence of stroke with manipulation. Nor will there ever be. As far as it ‘working’, well for MSK injuries, I’ve yet to find aything that works better. Does the profession have flaws? Sure, but it not having a positive effect on health and causing strokes are not valid arguments.

Can you explain why exactly you have such a vendetta against chiropractic? I am currently a chiropractic student and we have almost as many MD and DO professors teaching our classes as we have DC professors. These MD etc have the same or similar education to your yet they believe in chiropractic so much so that they teach at my school.. Why is that. They teach us the same path,anatomy, etc that an MD is taught why is that time taken if we are only a cult? Many of the I am aware of MD that practiced for years then got fed up with the drug companies and decided to become chiropractors as well. What do you think of these people? I guess you will claim they where bad doctors with failing careers, to that I will tell you thats not correct because I can tell you that one is a grad of Harvard medical school top of his class did a residency at the VA and before coming to our school practiced medicine with no disciplinary actions from his licensing board and was a partner in a very large practice here in our area. You ask why we worry so much about what you say about us I will ask you why do you worry so much about slamming our profession? Why not work as hard cleaning up the problems in yours. As for the chiro-board being made up of chiros yes they are just like medical boards are made up of MDs and DOs, in fact most licensing boards are staffed by the professions they represent.

JR. I know this will come as a surprise to you but in medical schools the professors who teach pathology, anatomy, and other basic science courses are not MD’s or DO’s but actual scientists with PhD degrees in the subjects in which they teach. So as for the MD’s teaching these basic science courses at your program, I would have to review their backgrounds before I could offer any specific critique but I would guess that there is a good chance that they are not and were never experts in their fields. Most likely lost their license and will do anything for cash.

Bob,are you suggesting that the studies in the last decade by Rothwell, Smith, Lee, and others published in prestigious medical journals like Stroke and Neurology were not “credible”? Or is it just that you believe the recent Cassidy study should trump all previous evidence of a direct link between chiro neck twisting and stroke? And what about the hundreds of case reports in the literature going back to a 1934 issue of JAMA? The refusal of the chiropractic industry to acknowledge the link between stroke and neck twisting is a sad reflection on the industry itself. How many more innocent young women will be maimed or killed before you and your colleagues walk away from the alter of BJ and his focus on upper neck manipulation as a panacea?

And by the way JR, I don’t have a vendetta against chiropractic but rather against quackery. To the chiropractors who provide manual and manipulative therapy in the treatment of musculoskeltal ailments and who limit their use of upper neck manipulation to a last resort therapy I have no complaint. But to the majority, who are treating “subluxations” and who follow the teachings of DD and BJ Palmer and who twist the necks of all who will hold still I have nothing but comtempt.

Dear Chiropractors and Bloggers,
At some point, perhaps even as I write this, when we get past the statistics, belief systems and positions held, we needn’t look any further that our local Hospital wards for the answer.

In these lonely recovery rooms lay the “rare” patients. Victims of Neck manipulations gone horribly wrong.

Is one too many you ask? Let me assure you that if YOU were to experience what my healthy young wife of fourty years has been going through over the last 2 and a half years,I dare say NO ONE would wish this upon their worst enemy.

My wife suffered immediate trauma at the hands of a Chiropractor. September 13th,2007 was the beginning of our nightmare. There is not enough time nor space to properly define exactly all she went through and continues to deal with.Make no mistake…this one senseless act has changed our lives forever.
Please feel free to view our website at,
http://www.sandynette.com

My heart aches just thinking about the reality of any other person needlessly ending up like my Sandy but until change comes so will more victims.
Apparently common sense is not so common.
Still struggling,
Dave & Sandy Nette

“Most likely lost their license and will do anything for cash.” Wow you really don’t like chiropractic at all. Your making a judgment about your fellow MDs based on the fact they teach at a chiropractic school. I realize many classes at medical school are not taught by MDs and DOs but many are at least if you look at the faculty list at the medical in OKC. Our school also has other scientist teaching particular classes related to the Phds they hold. For example we have a Phd in Physiology teaching just that. We have an anatomist teaching anatomy, etc etc. but Im sure you will dismiss this as well. They must be fakes or hacks because they teach at a chiropractic school. Interesting so I guess your take is to just shoot it down evidence or not if its connected to a chiropractic school.

“I don’t have a vendetta against chiropractic but rather against quackery. To the chiropractors who provide manual and manipulative therapy in the treatment of musculoskeltal ailments and who limit their use of upper neck manipulation to a last resort therapy I have no complaint. But to the majority, who are treating “subluxations” and who follow the teachings of DD and BJ Palmer and who twist the necks of all who will hold still I have nothing but comtempt.” The straights as we call the Palmer people are not the majority by any stretch of the imagination. They are a fading minority I would say. I am “in the chiropractic world” and I see everyday that the profession is more and more mixers, that is the ones of us that agree and compliment the medical world. The problem I have with what your say is that you are lumping us all and our education into one group. You we have the same license but you have the same license as an MD that graduates from an off shore medical school. I know our education I live it daily.I understand your point with the upper cervical adjustments I too feel they should used conservatively. If your complaints are of the quackery in chiropractic then speak out against those people. Please dont try to condemn an entire group. While your at it work on the quacks in your world too.I worked for many years in probation and our biggest problem was Doctors that basically sold scripts for pain meds. just a thought.

JR. You and I are clearly never going to see eye to eye on this subject. If you are sincere in wanting to legitimize your chosen profession you should make it a point to familiarize yourself with Donald Murphy and his 2008 piece in Chiropractic and Osteopathy titled; How Can Chiropractic Become a Mainstream Respected Profession? Murphy points out much of what I say and he is of course a chiropractor. Along those lines retired Florida chiropractor Samuel Homola is as critical of chiropractic as I am and has published books as well as recent articles in medical journals saying as much. You yourself acknowledge that the “straights” are a problem but you minimize their influence. You may “live in the chiro world” every day but I dare say that you have only been doing so for a couple of years. I have been “observing” the chiro industry up close and personal for over 20 years and I have loads of documentation to demonstrate that the Palmer philosophy is alive and well in the 21st century. Open your eyes to the realities JR and when the profession as a whole is willing to walk away from subluxations, thermography, upper neck manipulation and all the other voodoo and witchcraft I will quietly walk away and take on another hobby. But until then I will be here to warn the public that chiro in its current form is mostly quackery and dangerous quackery at that.

My e mail is mvnbonz@yahoo.com. I guess my comments are to real for this board.

LOL….I have read your previous weak “Comments” Tim.(Yawn…)
Perhaps you should consider changing your email to mvnbozo@yahoo.com

It’s a shame you didn’t man-up and face Dr. Kinsinger in a Public Debate. I would have paid to see it. No surprise you backed out. It’s the first smart thing you’ve done.

So just chime out and leave this Blogger Board to the Scientific Majority, as you are not doing your “trade” any favours by voicing an opinion.
It has been said; “even a fool is considered wise if he keeps his mouth shut”.

Great Site! Appreciate all the informative warnings against Upper Neck Manipulations. Many thanks!!

Chiropractor subsidized payments have been completely stopped in Ontario, British Columbia and Alberta. This past week Saskatchewan announced that all payments will be stopped with only a few minor exceptions!!!! Fantastic!

Congratulations are in order to the Province of Saskatchewan for finally getting on board with the rest of the Country. Now let’s start putting our Canadian Tax Depraved Health Care Dollars to Better Use.

Thanks Troy. You must be well respected in your community.Good luck with your Canadian health care, its a true example for the rest of the world.

I hope all goes as well for you Bill as it has so far in connecticut. Again why waste time focused on the vast minority. Oh what big boys we are name calling Troy. Society sees our worth….I dont care if the Canadians decided to stop paying on chiro….american insurance doesnt pay for dentistry hardly and your not attacking them. Your small little group can do nothing to eliminate anything chiros do….why?…..because you just hate and call names…..every time you present research that proves we are these horrible creatures you see us to be it gets you no where….why?….because it is not true. To the gentleman who’s wife had a stroke….tragic to say the least…I am currently dealing with a father in law with brain damage because his MD convinced him to have elective brain surgery that he botched and wasnt by any means neccesary. I get your hatred it has to go somewhere, but the fact is your wifes stroke was not caused by a manipulation…it was caused by a blocking in her arteries like most strokes, chiropractors do NOT cause this to happen and we can not cause arteries to collapse or disect. Recent research that was heard in Connecticut proves that you are just as likely to have a stroke after leaving your MD’s office as you are a chiros office. What it really says is no matter what you are doing in life the odds of stroke are there and do not in any way increase with a neck manipulation. Why than have the MD’s tried to focus on this…because it is scarey. I can line up people who are parents who say their child has autism because of veccination….I can alo line up parents who believe vaccines had nothing to do with it….it is all about what you believe. Why does Tim not do the debate….because talking to walls is no fun. Nothing good would come of it for either side. The connecticut courts ar doing the debate for us and you are LOOSING!!! Bill is a hateful person period. Both proffessions have their place but there is no place for this kind of slander and scare tactic persuassion. Bill even the great Mayo founder of the Mayo clinics wife was helped greatly through chiropractic care. Sorry you are so afraid of us takeing a piece of your pie, have fun scareing people into this belief….how has that worked out for you in Connecticut? Bill I apologize for ever saying anything wrong about you….you are troubled and for that I feel sorry for you.

Wes,
Thank you for speaking on behalf of your brother Tim.lol
Given the amount of spelling errors and excellent grammar I’m guessing you both had a hand in this speech.

I wouldn’t use comparisons about talking to Chiropractors if I were you. You see Wes,I would say it’s more like arguing with a fence post when we engage Chiropractors in any attempt at worth while dialogue.

No need to explain why you are so afraid to go head to head with Dr. Kinsinger. We understand the real reasons for chickening out and frankly can’t blame any of you for wanting to save face. There’s an old saying, “When you want to get out of a hole…best to quit digging”.

All I can say after reading your comments Wes is that somewhere out there is a lonely Village being deprived of two perfectly good idiots.

All kidding aside,my thoughts are that it’s not that Bill or any of us hate Chiropractors. In fact my best friend see’s one. It’s just that most hate what they do. The verdict from down South only proves one thing; You can not trust Chiropractors to govern themselves. That’s ok……just watch and mark my words…there IS change coming. Like it or hate it, it really won’t make any difference. That little light you see coming, well it’s called a Freight Train… NOT the Tooth Fairy.

It’s not about winning or losing boys and girls, but it’s all about doing the right thing.
The world is watching.

Troy,
I will be sure to tell my grammer teacher she failed. Hey while your at it I am Italian and American Indian as well…care to take a stab at those qualities? I bow to your genius, you are the smartest man you know that I am sure of.
Trust me Tim doesnt need my backing at all. Great assumption though, considering I have not spoken to Tim in quite some time. But you my friend can do or say no wrong so sure Tim is here now actually as well and we are mispelllin everithing and haveing a Grande ole tyme LOL!

There is no fear here trust me. Every time someone takes a giant leap to destroy chiropractic…..they get destroyed. CT was the great doctors (Bill for you slower people) baby and his baby backfired. Your ignorance shines in your comment about chiro’s governing chiro’s. My friend in the “verdict from down south” how were there any chiro’s governing this? It was the US court system and it did NOT go as Bill would have hoped.

Yep, thats it, we are scared of a debate….one that was settled in the US court system, and that could not change the mind of anyone involved. I cower to you oh mighty one.

Hey if you actually looked at the research that I posted on here earlier than I will make you all this plee….since a person is just as likely to have a stroke by going to their medical doctor as they are their chiropractor….as soon as you lobby for the MD’s in family practice to inform everyone of their patients of the risk involved….I will do the same. As far as the unaffectiveness of what I do, I dont need to convince you, I could care less about you…..its the hundreds of patients in my office alone weekly who are haveing life changeing improvements that I will focus on. Do you know that your great profession use to drill holes in heads for headaches? As the medical profession was founded on opportunity and chance so was chiropractic….and as medicine has advanced so does chiropractic.

Did you really say that you like chiropractors and than back it up by saying your best friend goes to see one? Wow you really are conceited and self involved. Can I not call you racist because you know a black guy LOL.

You people are freekin humerous. Off to my village I have been on idiot break for too long now LOL.

Wes,
Did I mention my best friend is Black?
The fact that he believes in UFO’s and Big Foot, doesn’t bother me. The fact that he NO LONGER has his neck manipulated makes me very happy. ‘s the best decision he has ever made in fact!So as long as he wishes to see a Chiropractor once a year for low back pain….I’m OK with this should he ask for my humble opinion.

You do raise a good point Wes. Should I hear of a Podiatrist twisting someones neck to fix their big toenail, and they end up a Paraplegic or worse from the consequences, I’ll be sure and petition against such practice.

Comments like this Wes only confirm what we already know. Namely that your trade has little or no ability to envoke or welcome change.Your unscientific views of this serious matter make me realize that we need to start by educating and enlightening those that are willing to remove the Blinders of old folklore.

I would encourage you to read the fabulous book “Spin Doctors”. It opened my eyes a long time ago to what the problems are regarding Chiropractic. Perhaps you could order an extra copy for your waiting room?

I would encourage you to do more reading ( might also help you with your spelling) right after you and Tim have had a chance to review the CT Hearings. I can help you navigate the web should you have any difficulty finding the links.
Obviously you need a math Refresher course as well. Duh…Court system? Four out of five were Chiropractors voting on this issue. Sure looks like a Fox guarding the Hen House to me.LOL

It’s a known fact the Modern Medicine has come a long way. Thankfuly things have improved and we are blessed with a wonderful medical system. It’s a pitty that we can not say the same for Chiropractic. Then again, if we could back up 100 years perhaps you would have an excuse for the holes in your head.

Be Well.

Hmm….patients leaving their Doctors office and having a stroke?
Lets talk about Joe. A healthy 39 year old male, fit, never smoked or did drugs, a father of two. Married and no major illness in family members. Parents both living and doing well. Joe has a twin who is a proffesional long distance runner. Lets just say Joe is definitely ABOVE good health.

-Joe feels fine. He goes to Chiropractor for a routine maintence fixer upper.Unbeknownst to Joe, his Chiropractor ( Well call him Tim, Wes, Whoever… ) Twists Joes neck and ripps small tears in Joes vertebral Artery. Snap, crackle , pop, rice crispies. Oops somethings felt different this time.
- Unaware of the impending danger but feeling immediate great pain and dizzyness, Joe decides it best to head to Doctor. Good move Joe!
- Medical Doctor uses modern MRI ,CT Technology along with Ang. They utilize an entire specialized team of experts to save his life. It carries much risk also….but Joe lives to walk and talk another day. The Xrays and Angio clearly tell the story.They discover the fresh and obvious internal damage to Joes otherwise healthy neck.

Medical Doctor(s)save Joes life.

I would find it most enlightening to find out just how many folks go to their real Doctors , following a Chiropractor visit, and experience Strokes as a result of what the Chiropractors caused.Not all strokes apparently happen immediately but most patients are able to recall the initial event.

If I were feeling serious pain or any stroke symptoms following a Neck Manipulation I WOULD HEAD DIRECTLY TO AN EMERGENCY HOSPITAL OR MY FAMILY DOCTOR.That is of course only if I had this information and could still function AFTER the “treatment”.Sadly many people don’t make the connection and end up crippled for life or dead. Too bad the CT “Chiropractors” didn’t see this as important.
Makes sense to me.

Wes…you wrote “Every time someone takes a giant leap to destroy chiropractic…..they get destroyed”…wow…quite telling…sounds a little like you’re giving your patients an offer they can’t refuse. You, and the other chiros who share your mindset, have succeeded thus far with your bullying tactics…how else would you have been able to call yourself ‘doctors’ with a few years of chiro school under your belt?…how else would you be able to keep secret the fact that you’re causing young, healthy people to stroke out?…but, here’s a newsflash…it’s all crumbling down, Wes…the cat’s out of the bag, buddy…and you can’t bully those who were maimed, or the family members of those who died from neck twists…because you, and your counterparts, have already taken away their lives…they have nothing to lose…and the ONLY thing they have left is to stop chiros from doing it to someone else. But, hey, keep spewing your venom…it’s allowing the public to see what you’re really about

In the words of Peter Marshall…”Let us not be content to wait and see what will happen, but give us the determination to make the right things happen”.

Hey Gang,
Does anyone have any additional information on the alleged Chiropractic Dog Abuse which took place in Calgary, Alberta, Canada in 2008? It is my understanding that the U of C authorized this ridiculous event.

From what I have heard these “tests” on the poor TEN defenceless pets proved nothing as far as any connection to VAD and humans.

I would be especially interested to know WHO authorized, WHO Over Saw and which individual Monitored the clinical findings. From my perspective , when an experiment envolves the torturing of any animal , if the purpose is empty, there should have been no green light to proceed in the first place. A video of the event could also provide insight if such a thing exists.

This just in…NEWS FLASH!
The science writer Simon Singh won the right yesterday to use the defence of fair comment, in a landmark ruling at the Court of Appeal.

The strongly worded judgment by three of Britain’s most senior judges brings Dr Singh significantly closer to defeating the action brought against him by a group of chiropractors. The ruling also sets a precedent that could, in practice, make scientific criticism and debate exempt from claims of defamation by companies or organisations.

Dr Singh was accused of libel by the British Chiropractic Association (BCA) over an opinion piece he wrote for The Guardian in April 2008, suggesting that there was a lack of evidence for the claims some chiropractors make on treating certain childhood conditions, including colic and asthma.

The BCA alleged that Dr Singh had, in effect, accused its leaders of knowingly supporting bogus treatments.

RELATED LINKS
Singh campaigns for libel law reform
Wrestling with the libel hydra
In May last year, Mr Justice Eady, in a preliminary High Court ruling in the dispute, held that Dr Singh’s comments were factual assertions rather than expressions of opinion, which meant that he could not use the defence of fair comment.

However, Lord Judge, the Lord Chief Justice, Lord Neuberger, Master of the Rolls, and Lord Justice Sedley ruled that Mr Justice Eady had “erred in his approach” last May and upheld Dr Singh’s appeal. Dr Singh described the ruling as “brilliant”, but said the action had cost £200,000 and two years of his time “just to define the meaning of a few words”. He added: “At last we’ve got a good decision. So instead of battling uphill we’re fighting with the wind behind us.”

The written judgment said that the original decision threatened to silence scientists or science journalists wishing to question claims made by companies or organisations. It said: “This litigation has almost certainly had a chilling effect on public debate which might otherwise have assisted potential patients to make informed choices about the possible use of chiropractic.”

Asking judges to rule on matters of scientific controversy would be to “invite the court to become an Orwellian ministry of truth”, the judgment said.

In a statement issued after the ruling, the BCA expressed disappointment and said it was considering whether to appeal to the Supreme Court to overturn yesterday’s ruling. “This is not the end of the road … Our original argument remains that our reputation has been damaged,” it said.

The BCA can now either appeal to the Supreme Court, proceed to trial and challenge Dr Singh’s defence of fair comment, or withdraw its case. A BCA spokesman said that board members would decide in the coming days.

The judgment was hailed as a victory by those campaigning for the reform of libel laws. Tracey Brown, director of Sense About Science, said: “In fighting this case, Simon has shone a light in a very dark and unpleasant corner of our legal world. It is clear from this ruling that senior members of the judiciary have added their weight to the need for libel reform.”

Last month Jack Straw, the Justice Secretary, said he was committed to a swift reform of libel laws, should Labour win the election. He said a stronger public interest defence was needed and expressed concern over “libel tourism”, in which British courts are being used by litigants from abroad to take advantage of rules that are seen as being favourable to claimants.

In England, the burden of proof rests on the defendant, who must establish that what has been reported is true. In the United States and most European countries, the party bringing the case must prove that it is false.

Peter Wilmshurst, a cardiologist, is being sued by an American company in the English courts, over his criticism of a heart implant trial and several US publications have said that they intend to withdraw from the British market.

Evan Harris, the Liberal Democrat science spokesman, said that yesterday’s “sensible” judgment was not a substitute for reform of the law.

“It is no kind of justice for a scientist to spend £200,000 and two years of his life just to get halfway through a case,” he said. “The political parties must now all commit to reform of the law to free scientific speech and responsible journalism from the threat of penury.”

Colin Blakemore, a neuroscientist at the University of Oxford, said: “This decision is a very significant step in the efforts to prevent the British libel laws being used to stifle legitimate criticism of unjustified claims about science and technology. The public will be the ultimate beneficiaries of Simon Singh’s brave campaign.”

Congratulations Simon Singh! You have made this world a better place.

[EDITED BY BLOG CREATOR BECAUSE OF DISTASTEFUL LANGUAGE]

Troy,

You are so far up there I think the fumes are getting to you. The B.S. is getting so deep coming out of Troy that he has buried himself. What a joke and a waste of column space. I have not read a lick of proof that relates chiropractic and stroke. You guys keep saying you are going to prove it with this or that, but I have looked at every link and post – nothing. An editorial column does not prove anything – nice try. If you have a vendetta against chiros – prove that it’s hokie (good luck).
Bill thinks Vioxx Is a great drug. I’m sure the widows of those men that died after taking it would disagree with you. Just goes to show what a bias person Bill is. He makes it sound like they decided to take it off the market. The fact is Merck got their asses sued and people were dying. Merck would not have taken it off the market otherwise and guys like Bill would still be giving it to their patients because some drug rep told him how good it was. Bill doesn’t have time to research the medical stuff because he’s too busy trying to get chiropractors. I feel sorry for his patients. He puts so much energy into slamming chiropractic, it has him missing the point. I think it should be a warning to OKC about an MD that is too focused on chiropractic to care about your health. This is your hobby Bill? I’d rather be with my family or boating. Live life before it’s gone guys and girls.
P.S. – there are chiropractors on staff at Cancer Treatment Centers of America. Watch out cancer patients, the chiropractors might actually make you feel better.

By the way – I am sure everytime Bill prescribed Vioxx he had them sign a consent form letting his patients know that they could have a heart attack or stroke if they took it. Right? How about Celebrex? Do patients have to sign a consent form when they get that RX? Do MDs even tell their patients that they have an increased risk of death when taking it? Says so right on the Celebrex website, but ask Bill if he tells his patients they might die if they take it. How many prescriptions wouldn’t get filled? How many drug rep perks might be cut? You could go down the list of drugs and I don’t remember every signing a consent form or being told of side effects. Weird. How many people die from prescription drug reactions? If you base it on AMA reports alone it will make you wonder how medicine is still a profession. There is a lot of money in poisoning people, padding pockets makes a lot of people look the other way. And yes Troy – my friends are medical doctors. They are Caucasian, so I guess you are still the coolest cat in blog world. Unbelievable.

Hey Jack…every time you fill a prescription, you get a package insert that states ALL the risks of the drug…the patient is then allowed to make an INFORMED decision. But you chiros refuse to tell people that they can stroke out from neck twisting. Gotta give you credit…your bait and switch arguments…diversions from the real issue…and even hostile tactics have allowed this to happen…until now. I heard 20/20 is doing an expose’ on chiropractic, including your refusal to warn chiro patients that they could become crippled or die AND just how you’ve managed to keep it a secret…the walls are crumbling down…the entire nation is going to see the ‘padding [of] pockets’ you chiros pulled off…but no one is going to ‘look the other way’ anymore.

Hi James…excellent points! Obviously you have done your homework! Your point about Chiroquacks twisting necks and causing serious damage to patients is well taken.
I am not sure however if Jack will be able to comprehend much of what you have written. You see judging by his spelling I’m guessing he is a Chiropractor in training.

In his own words he says,” You could go down the list of drugs and I don’t remember ever signing a consent form or being told of side effects”.

My guess is this delusionary chap is suffering from taking WAY TOO MANY DRUGS! LOL
Perhaps the next time he is “going down his LIST of drugs” he should consider meditation as an alternative.

It’s just an observation, but it would appear once again that the command of the English language is not a strong suit for Chiroquacktors.
Are there any academic standards required for Chiros? Just wondering.
Coolest Cat in Blog World,
Troy

Not even worth a response your ignorance to my pofesssion is obvious. The research is there to prove we are very effective…more than MD’s actually. But you are to smart to see it. You just want to hate and destroy. Good luck your energy should be on your patients and not killing them, not trying to kill one of the fastest growing, safet, most effective professions around.

Here is a start for you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfD6Xg1xO4o

Hi Wes,
Welcome back. I think Wes you had best watch from the side lines.
I do not hate you or your “pofesssion”, as you convey. LOL
Maybe try sticking to little words… like “trade”.

When one reads your submissions the optics just don’t do you any favours.

Do you work for Jack? Are you a student just learning the trade? Are you open to accepting scientific medical facts? Is it a comprehension problem or do you just want to remain in Fantasy Land despite the obvious? LOL!

I would not make issue with you were it not for the fact that Chiroquacks are causing serious injuries unsuspecting people for no apparent reason.
The majority of these nuts still insist on cracking peoples necks. Go figure! Complete Knuckle Heads.

I believe some folks can benefit from the Placebo effect of seeing a Chiropractor. Then again, some folks still believe the world is flat. But that’s another topic for another blog.
Coolest Cat in Blog World

There are more than 370 planets outside our Solar System which have been discovered Wes.
Which one are you on? LOL!

CCIBW

I will apologize to Troy now for any grammer or spelling mistakes. It makes me nervous to write anything when someone so smart is reading. I just thought I would share. I had a new patient last week who had spent the past 6 weeks at the Mayo clinc having tests run trying to determine the cause of her illness. When they couldn’t make a diagnosis they told her that she needed to find a Chiropractor. I would give you the details of her condition but the allopathic minded would not beleive me. I also had 2 new babies refered by a local peditrician for collic. ” Hope I dont kill them!”

Tim,
Yawn…..zzzzz.
What’s a Peditrician?

Question: How long did it take you to learn how to spell Chiroquacktor?

As for working on Children how about just stopping this ridiculous practice and remove all doubt of killing our hope for tomorrow? What a sick thing to say Tim….even for you.

These Chiros have to be one Neuron short of a Synapse.
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Experience not Required. Only passion,patience and common sense.Strong command of the English language not required, but a willingness to repeat yourself until being understood would be quite valuable indeed. Those with a high level of understanding of The Various Cults will be given priority and serious consideration as this would be a definite plus.

Space….the final frontier.

Troy, why dont you teach us all. Im sure mcdonalds will let you work part time to allow you to save the world from the terror of Chiropractic. Your use of the word “synapse” was impressive. Im sure your entry level Neuro class will come in handy some day. As for treating children. I have over a 100 on the books for today. many of them are children of people I treated when they were children. Your false claims are falling on deaf ears. Ijust decided to fuel your fire. Its entertaining to watch you [edited by blog creator] rant.

Guys, I feel the need to chime in again and redirect the dialogue. Those of us speaking out are primarily concerned with the well documented reality that a small percentage of patients who have their upper necks manipulated will suffer a devastating cerebrovascular injury which can lead to stroke and or death.

There are hundreds of case reports in the medical literature of these complications going back to the initial report in JAMA in 1934. In the past 15 years there have been a number of peer reviewed articles in the medical literature which point to a direct link between chiropractic neck manipulation and stroke. Here is a link to one such piece, http://stroke.ahajournals.org/cgi/content/short/32/5/1054 . In addition, hundreds of death certificates and thousands of patients with radiographic evidence of arterial tears immediately following neck manipulation are difficult to ignore.

Recently, a single study is being pointed to as if to say that there is no association between neck manipulation and stroke. Nothing could be further from the truth. Even if we fully agree with the study, and we don’t, it does not erase the decades of evidence that came before it. You cannot just pick and choose to ignore piles of data and focus on one study, and a study that did not involve any review of medical records at that. At most, the study in question raises questions that demand further investigation.

What we find most puzzling is how aggressively the chiropractic industry has “circled the wagons” in their effort to distance themselves from this issue. There are scientifically minded chiropractors who take this very seriously and use neck manipulation only as a last resort and under very controlled circumstances. We applaud these conservative chiropractors. But as long as the majority of those in practice see upper neck twisting as a cure-all and continue to treat everything from ear infections in babies to diabetes in the elderly using this risky technique we will be out here raising awareness and hoping for a day when this will end.

Thank you Dr. Bill Kinsinger!
Yes…even I must admit the Chiros have a way of taking me off subject.
It’s difficult to talk about this subject matter when the evidence is so overwhelming. When there are so many people who have been injured by this needless and senseless neck twisting act.

As usual you bring so much common sense to the table. I respect your opinion and appreciate your intellect.
Thanks Bill for the link!And thanks for making this world a better and safer place.

JUST IN FOLKS! HOT OFF THE PRESS!
Todays New Haven Newspaper…CHECK OUT THIS LINK!

http://www.nhregister.com/articles/2010/04/06/opinion/doc4bbb23f853af8337768548.txt

Thank you for this terrific editorial on exactly what happened in CT!
Big Kudos to Bill and Preston!!!!!

Huuge stepp forwurd fur yu Billy and Troy! Yur own opinons have ben postud on thu web and yu wrote it….BIG KUDOS indeed. Congratulitions! LOL
And there are many research studies proving the linck between autism and Veccinnattion, but Yu all refusse to axept that?

Let me be clear: There is just as much chance of a patient having a stroke after seeing their MD as there is after seeing their DC. There is my admission. All I can say is 9 years of practice 100 patients a day and no strokes. I must just be the lucky chiropractor. I do however have many life changing stories from patients. There it is boys we help people…sorry to burst your brilliant bubbles. Troy I think even Dr. Bill is tired of your narcusicstic natur. LOL

Did I not just post a news spot about the…wait for it…BENEFITS of chiropractic neck manipulation….oh and you all ignored it. Typical of you witch hunters.

LOL….At least your spelling has improved Wes.

Bill,
Question: Do you happen to know how many years Preston Long practiced as a Chiropractor before realizing the dangers of Chiropractic? Can we order his book “The Naked Chiropractor” on line and if so would you recommend it?
Thanks!

Yes Troy, you can order Preston’s book online at Amazon and I most definitely recommend it. Preston is not alone, there are dozens, if not hundreds, of chiropractors who have left and moved on to other areas including many who went on to medical school and are now practicing physicians.

And there are dozens maybe hundreds of medical doctors that have left medical areas to move on to chiropractic. Mainly I hear because they were tired of killing people and wanted a rewarding profession.

Doctor Kinsinger;
Thank you Doctor Bill. Don’t mind Wes. He is having a bad couple of years. I suspect business is dropping off to an all time low and his Insurance rates are rising. Things will get easier for him as soon as he accepts the changing tide and enters the 21st Century. La la Land must be getting stressful.
He has done himself and his trade a disservice by voicing his opinion. How embarrassing for his fellow members! They must be getting ready to put a muzzle on this Chiroquacker.

Mr.Wes;
You can stop digging any time now buddy. It’s the first step to getting out of your hole.
CCIBW

” Hey Folks,
I know there are a growing number of websites out there warning the general public of the dangers of needless upper neck adjustments and this is great! What I would like to know is does anyone out there know when the upcoming 20/20 Special Segment on Chiropractors will be aired?

If it’s anything like the Award Winning show 60 Minutes that was just televised a few weeks ago… I can hardly wait! The great thing happening today is that this battle between Science versus pseudoscience is being heard by MILLIONS of people across North America!

This momentum is really starting to build and lives are being saved a whole world of hurt because of this tremendous media coverage. If even ONE person avoids serious harm by deciding NOT to have their neck twisted it will all be worth it. This is undoubtedly having a positive ripple effect worldwide. No longer can the Chiroquacker hide behind their ridiculous philosophies.

God Bless All of You who continue to do battle and fight Quackery. If someone wants to believe in non-sense, well….it’s a free Country. But for those of you out there (YOU STICK IN THE MUD DIE HARD CHIRPORACTORS LOL) … who insist in abusing your trusting patients, well….get ready…the battle is only just beginning!

This “War” as you Chiros call it, is far from over. But please, continue to bury your head in the sand and keep on pretending that everything is just fine in your “world”. We like it when our enemy is sleeping. For Truth ALWAYS Triumphs.

Somebody throw the Emperor a blanket!

The past TV Special, Market Place ( “Stretching the Truth!”)brought to our attention Chiropractors ridiculous use of the Spinal Decompression latest Gizmo. This terrific reporting was aired on March 26,2010. I believe you can catch it still online. Fantastic in depth investigation by an Award TV Production crew.

Take Care! Here is the Link…….Enjoy!

http://www.cbc.ca/marketplace/2010/stretching_the_truth/main.html

Ouch! “

Can anyone tell me why it is that Chiroquackers are allowed to carry the minimum of Malpractice Insurance when they are capable of causing such harm?

I hear they boast of this fact! It makes me sick frankly to watch victims end up with little to survive with financialy following any neck gone wrong manipulation.

When defeated in Court( It Rarelyoes there!)the would be “doctors” simply state….”here it is. It’s all we have. If you don’t like it that’s tough. I’m off to go Bankrupt. got to run…chow.

Perhaps we need to focus on the Insurance Companies. Maybe they could implement two levels of covergae. One for the sane, who don’t do neck twisting, and one for the …..well you know.

Hi ,

Thanks for the great content and information. I am always browsing the internet looking for good content to get ideas about spine surgery. You have some real good content here so just keep on doing what you are doing as good stuff like this is always hard to find.

Cheers,
Laser Spine Surgery

Hey there Laser Spine Sugery!
I also found this to be one of the best Blogs out there.

As they say, “Knowledge is Power”.

Hope to hear from you again.

Troy the reason that chiro malpractice rates are low is that chiro practice is essentially a low risk practice. Before you get worked up listen to me. For the most part chiros “treat” an essentially very healthy patient population and significant injury is very rare. Most chiros will likely never cause a stroke or other serious injury. However, the stroke risk is always there and for those few folks who suffer this complication the “rarity” is no consolation. Contrast chiro practice with medical practice and the difference is vast. Medical doctors treat a much different patient population including patients in their last days of life, victims of violent accidents, and those suffering from a multitude of life threatening illness. In addition many of the procedures and therapies we use are without question inherently risky and dangerous.

Ok Bill…I get that part. And when you put it that way it does make sense. Sort of. AND YOU ARE SO RIGHT about it being of NO consolation to those unfortunate souls who suffer the consequences of a Neck Twist gone bad.

Let’s say tomorrow I decide that hurling myself out of an airplane with a Parachute strapped to my back is a good idea. But we never make it up to our correct jumping altitude and we are forced to jump out of the plane prematurely due to Captain error. (Forgot to tell us that Company was facing hardships and only filled the tanks half full). So we jump out, parachute does open…..about 25 feet from the ground.

Fortunately we live. Unfortunately my kneecaps are now located directly under my chin.

I signed a “Consent Form” prior to exercising my stupid free will. I mistakenly assumed however that the Pilots were not the janitors.

They do carry Insurance. Judge says pay the man. This helps me put food and the table and covers some of my medical needs but does nothing to stretch my legs back to normal.
But the question arises: ” Why the need for the Captain to carry Insurance of any amount if Consent Forms are signed?” And should this nut case Janitor ( Al’s Well that Ends Well Flying Club) pay the same rates as Air Canada?

I would like to see Chiropractors Insurance coverage on a sliding scale. Obviously the ones who do NOT practice this barbaric neck twisting are causing the entire Industry to suffer massive hits….. at times. I say, for those idiots who insist on continuing this dangerous obsession, FORCE these knuckleheads to carry a MINIMUM of 50,000,000.00

The spiked insurance rates that these die hards would be faced with just might convince them to abandon their folly.
And that Bill….would be a good thing!

I love reading your posts Bill and admire the work you do. You make this world a better ( AND SAFER!) place!

Troy, your ideas regarding liability insurance sound great but are totally unrealistic. This is never going to happen. It makes much more sense to work on this from a practical standpoint. First priority is to raise awareness using whatever means possible. Secondly, follow the lead of our friends in Connecticut and push for informed consent in every state and province via legislation or regulation. Third, appeal to the rational voices within the chiropractic community. This last option may seem like a long shot but there are some very dedicated scientific minded individuals and as their numbers increase slowly there is a possibility that one day the dangerous upper neck manipulations will be abandoned.

What do you think about advertising the risks on Buses and Billboards? Some have already done this I see.

Do you have any fresh ideas on getting the word out to the masses Bill?

I last heard that about 17 percent of the chiros DON’T believe or practice this dangerous Upper Neck Twisting procedure. ( This was a couple of years ago ) Any ideas on what we as concerned health consumers can do to encourage more Chiropractors to abandone this ridiculous nonsense?

I was thrilled to see the effort and research the Victims voiced at the CT Hearings. I think this fight is far from over and was impressed with the tenacity of Senator Fasano.

Thanks Bill for your honest answers.

Troy advertising can certainly be productive as can speaking to health reporters in your local area. Also, simply talking to family and friends.

Thank you Bill.
Just doesn’t seem like enough.

There is not a day that goes by when I do not warn others of the dangers surrounding this nonsense.

From what I hear it’s not a good day to be a Chiropractor.
Reform is on the way both in the USA and Canada.

I hear their latest gimmick is the Decompression Machine.lol
Loved the Market Place investigation. Good TV helps.

Take good care!

Bill what about the manipulation of the upper spine using “activators” have you seen any study on there yet. Its the little clicker “T” shaped thing.

Hey… i think i can answer this one for ya. Bill is a Bust Man and probably does not have time to enlighten you.

This thing really works! It is shiny and has a plunger that makes a clicking sound. This is what they use to cure things like, bedwetting, collic, Cancer, Aids, …well you name it. But don’t let a chiropractor charge you for this “treatment”. Ususaly if you frequent garage sales you can pick them up real cheap. Some folks will even throw in a quilt or old magazines.

LOL……SORRY DOCTOR BILL!!!!!!
I meant to spell…. “BUSY Man!”

Troy thanks for the comedy but I was hoping for serious answer. Maybe one with some information I can look at. Thanks

The good news is an “activator” is not likely to hurt anyone but at the same time it is a completely useless device so there is a possibility that someone could suffer injury because of delay of accurate diagnosis while undergoing this useless therapy.

Good point Bill!

I have heard though that if used properly, tha Activator can remove Skin Tags.

Good point Bill!

I have heard though that if used properly, the Activator can remove Skin Tags.

And be used as a bottle opener.

Can anyone please tell me where I can go to find an up to date list of all the confirmed Chiropractor victims? Past and present.

Thanks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ltnyFgUBt0

Wow, this was really a nice discovery,so this therapy really help us from avoiding getting sicked at a young age.I wish this can be apply to those people all around the world with this kind of diseases, Thanks for publishing this Bill Kinsinger, And mostly the one who discover its cure
Daniel David Palmer

Question;
Can criminal charges be laid against the Chiropractors when one of these “rare” catostrophic injuries occur?

If the procedure is scientificaly baseless, and there is a hisory of grievious injury , is this neck twisting not an assault on ones person?

Have a nice day.

Good question. Unfortunately, criminal charges are not likely following even death from neck manipulation although I would agree that it seems like the idea has some merit. Certainly civil litigation is a very viable option following a chiropractic injury or stroke.

Thanks Bill,
It’s a shame in this modern day and age that we even have to be dealing with this barbaric neck manipulation thing.

Science based medicine destroys the premise and anatomical possibilities of their outlandish neck twisting treatments, yet we allow them to publish the most ridiculous claims of healing on their websites.

I realize that everyone has a choice when it comes to their health, but when something as dangerous as this is still going on surely there must be something more we can do than wait for the next person to be injured or killed.

It seems like everyone is looking for the magic bullet when the problem is a clear as the nose on my face.

I will NEVER figure this one out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yo1nzDnbcUU&feature=related

To be very honest, my first instinct is to ignore Bob’s recent post. A touching story no doubt, but give me a break. This is the essence of chiropractic, anecdotes and “miracles”. Chiropractic is nothing more than a philosophical belief system based on the rantings of an uneducated grocer. In the 115 years of its existence it has not provided a single contribution to science or health care that can stand up to scrutiny. For those of you out there who are “believers” you can go on professing that “chiropractic works” and I am sure this story will serve you well. But for those of you who are still undecided, ask yourself one question. If chiropractic is a legitimate art, why is it that there is not a single University in the USA that offers a program in this discipline?

Was Palmer really uneducated? Hippocrates was uneducated as well (father of modern medicine also spoke of and used spinal manipulation to assist healing). Hippocrates learned medicine from his father and grandfather. In addition if you look at medical education at the time (1800s) it was mostly in the apprenticeship tradition not via a medical degree anyway. As for the education that was available, virtually the only requirement for graduation or entrance was the ability to pay the fees. In fact one could order a correspondence medical degree as well. The fact that Palmer was not university educated does not have the same connotation as today. His education was via self learning and apprenticeship (AJ Still) so really he had the training that was customary of his era. Just a thought. I mean Im a history guy not a chiropractic guy but maybe if that’s part of your argument against chiropractic it also invalidates medicine. Now the other stuff I dont know like I said history guy no a chiropractic guy. As for the university thing what about The University of Bridgeport (public state of Connecticut University and award winning just saying) wow maybe you should do some research..hehe if interested here is the information about that school; https://www.bridgeport.edu/pages/3214.asp

Tim,

At the end of your comment, you mention that the University of Bridgeport is a “public state of Connecticut University…” I’m not exactly sure what you meant by that, but the institution is a private one.

Yes, the University of Bridgeport has a chiropractic program, but they also have a Master of Science in Acupuncture and a College of Naturopathic Medicine.
The reader can decide the legitimacy of these.

BRYAN FARHA, Blog Creator

I meant that U or Bridgeport is connected to the state of Connecticut University system. Yes it is private now but that is recent. This is not the only University that has a Chiropractic program; Southern California University of Health science, Life University, National university, Northwestern University, University of Quebec etc. etc. but really I think its about Universities that this blog deems worthy. Right? not about “not a single University in the USA that offers a program in this discipline” I mean because usually when you say “not a SINGLE University in the USA that takes into consideration all Universities not just the ones we like. As I said I am not a chiropractic guy but I do think if we are gonna sling mud about anything we should try to be accurate. My point really has nothing to do with chiropractic just irresponsible media.

Yes I know U of Quebec is not in the USA

Tim says “This is not the only University that has a Chiropractic program; Southern California University of Health science, Life University, National university, Northwestern University”…

In recent years a few of the chiropractic “colleges” added the word “university” to their programs but nothing has changed regarding the content of the programs offered. This is nothing more than fluff, no different than if I decided to call myself an astronaut because I have flown a Cessna 150, it may sound impressive to a few folks but it does not change the reality of the situation.

And regards to Bridgeport “University”, is that place still run by the Moonies?

way to dodge Bill. So as I said its about what YOU deem worthy not what is or is not a University. You see name change or not the charter must be rewritten to make it a University. So your statement about “NO” University is just not true..period..

Thanks for the correction Tim, your probably right. I am sure that the “Southern California University of Health Science” will soon be considered one of the elites of higher education. And since you are such an expert, what type of degree programs is this fine institution offering these days in addition to the prestigious chiropractic degree?

Another thing Tim, for someone who is “not a chiropractic guy” but a “history guy”, you sure seem to be intimately familiar with the cult-like world of chiropractic. Are you by any chance related to an OKC chiro named Timmy Young?

I am an expert in my field Bill thanks for noticing. as for the schools I mentioned no clue what other degree programs they offer and I don’t care. I’m not saying that they are, or will be elite schools. Im just saying that they are in fact Universities. What exactly did I say to make you assume that I “seem to be intimately familiar with the cult-like world of chiropractic”? Its takes about a 1/16 of a second to type in Chiropractic and University and get a list of Universities. I don’t think that google or yahoo makes me a chiropractic guy. My issue is that people and media tend to tell lies to prove a point. Like to say NO university, I understand what your trying to do. I admire anyone that has principles and stand up for them.I just don’t think its a good idea to lie to make your point. stick with the facts. No I don’t know a Timmy Young in OKC in fact I don’t know anyone in OKC. See just like your past time is slamming chiropractic my hobby is responding to media that is dishonest. If what you are saying has value it should be based on the truth should it not? For the record University of Oklahoma does not really fall into the category of an elite school..just saying have a great weekend

Just to be clear one more time. Chiropractic “colleges” in recent years, after having failed in their multiple attempts to achieve affiliation with existing institutions of higher learning, have simply designated their programs as “universities”. I stand by my assertion that these institutions are nothing more than traditional chiro schools teaching naive and marginal students in the cult-like ways of chiropractic. The average chiro student could just have easily ended up in vo-tech. And what does the Univ. of Oklahoma have to do with anything tim?

June 2010, Employee of FDA states :47,000 people suffered stroke,heart failure or death due to the drug Avandia. July 14, FDA panel elects to keep drug on the market.
It amazes me at what hypocrites MDs are. Kinsinger you need to leave the Chiros alone and find a mirror.

So I guess you are suggesting some kind of an FDA conspiracy? And this lone FDA employee will likely end up “missing” and his office computer wiped clean. Give me a break, the FDA is not run by the giant “medical/Big Pharmaceutical mafia”. This is not to say that conventional medicine does not have problems or is without risk. Again, the difference is that conventional medicine evaluates treatment protocols based on risk/benefit ratio. Some degree of risk is tolerated when significant benefit is provided. Chiropractic neck twisting is not only dangerous, but completely useless for the vast majority of the conditions for which it is utilized. For the victims and their families, the fact that strokes or death following chiropractic “treatment” are “rare” is no consolation.

In case you are interested….

http://blog.newsok.com/smokeandmirrors/2010/08/22/deepak-to-speak-at-integris-good-idea/

“some degree of risk” 47,000 people and you put “some degree of risk” You really are everything I have heard. And with that statement, I beleive even worse. And for your information, look into who is the number one financial contributor for the FDA. Also look at the major stocks that each member of the FDA board holds. I was told to look at this blog because I might find humor in it. I find concern more than humor. You are representing a profession when you speak in public. Your profession does not share your beleifs.

It’s good to be back! Here’s an interesting development folks.
This is a step in the right direction as it places the focus on highest neck manipulation;

American Chiropractic Association responds to new Kaiser policy excluding cervical manipulation
August 20, 2010 — Kaiser Permanente Mid Atlantic States and Mid-Atlantic Permanente Medical Group recently revised their Chiropractic Manipulation Medical Coverage Policy to EXCLUDE cervical Chiropractic Manipulative Treatment (CMT).
The revised policy states, “Given the paucity of data related to beneficial effects of chiropractic manipulation of the cervical spine and the real potential for catastrophic adverse events, it was decided to exclude chiropractic manipulation of the cervical spine from coverage.”
Last week, ACA sent a letter to Kaiser outlining the extensive data that supports cervical spinal manipulation as both beneficial and safe. The association also released the following statement:
“The American Chiropractic Assoc is aware that Kaiser Permanente Mid Atlantic States and Mid-Atlantic Permanente Medical Group have revised their Chiropractic Manipulation Medical Coverage Policy to exclude cervical Chiropractic Manipulative Treatment (CMT) from coverage.
This restriction, if allowed to stand, will be harmful to chiropractic patients and doctors. We have contacted Kaiser to express our grave concern over this change, and we await its reply. ACA will expend every effort to encourage Kaiser to reverse this new restriction, and we will keep our members and the profession informed along the way.” – ACA President, Dr. Rick McMichael
Source: American Chiropractic Association, http://www.acatoday.org

So…Kudos are in order to this leader in the Health Field. They are paving the way for other heath care organizations recognizing the dangers and non-beneficial rapid upper neck mmanipulations.

It’s about time!

Thank you Bryan Farha!
Your comments regarding the University of Bridgeport, and clarifying the academic status/programs offered by this” University” help set the record straight.

It’s not easy in these types of debate for the average reader to make sense out of what is taking place here. The Chiropractors continue to deflect and throw out various smoke screens desperately avoiding accountability. BUT by holding the Bloggers accountable for what they post, we can all arrive at sensible conclusions.

I remain a firm believer that when people have the right and complete information, most can weigh out the facts and make the right decision. So, often we must eat the meat and throw away the bones, taking what is most important or vital and applying it to our daily lives.

I have been directly affected by this subject matter. A Chiropractor injured my wife several years ago. Our lives will never be the same. Yes….we are that “rare” stroke that shouldn’t and needn’t have happened. My young wife was a complete picture of health until she visited a local Chiropractor and he preformed this useless and dangerous rapid upper neck manipulation on her. Today she requires 24 hour care.

When I read about Kaiser stopping coverage for the Rapid Neck Twisting Adjustment, I was delighted. So was my wife. Truly ANYTHING that stops the Chiropractors from acting in this ridiculous manner and ends up saving lives or preventing serious needless injury is a GOOD thing!

I’m curious Troy, how do you feel about the DOs and their form of neck twisting? I would love to hear from the chiropractor you acuse of your wifes injuries. I’m sure their would be a different story.

Patience my little Grasshopper…patience.

I find it interesting Mr. “M.D.” that you ignore Troy’s post regarding the landmark decsion by Kaiser to exclude chiro neck twisting but instead resort to the standard chiro industry tactic of attacking the stroke victim. Very impressive indeed. So what should we make of this move by Kaiser? Do you think we should check the stock portfolio’s of the Kaiser board of directors members? Please do share your thoughts on this issue, and I would love to hear from tim as well.

Hi Doctor Kinsinger. Always a great inspiration to read your insightful posts!

Intellectual Sparing;
When faced with cold hard facts, diversion and deflection tactics such as this are common place amongst the majority of Chiropractic students like tim and M.D. Don’t worry Doc…I am getting used to it.LOL

Well… maybe we should not call this sparing. Sometimes ( but not often) I actually feel sorry for these youngsters. But like all of us they are entitled to their non scientific opinion. When they lose in the public debate forum , such as this site,it just makes me wonder why their teachers haven’t reined them in. I digress.

Let’s all agree that attacking the victim does nothing to validate ones “cause”. If anything it just paints the Chiropractors in a very bad light. The optics are horrible.

Yes, Kaiser is a HUGE Company ( #1 in The United States) and has a tremendous history of growth in the health care service. They would be an authority on assessing any issue regarding the safety or relevance of any health related issue surrounding this topic. They have unique and accurate benefit of reviewing records dating back many years of which they have obviously based their decision.

As for me I will stick to the facts. M.D. ( obviously a wanna be MD ) and Timmy ….well they can remain in their make believe world as long as they wish. It’s a free Country.

Once again, my heartfelt praise goes out to Kaiser Permanente for moving in a swift and direct manner. You have restored my faith in our Health Care System.There is hope after all!

I think we all need to be aware of the significance of this decision by Kaiser.

Kaiser has the distinct advantage of being able to review historical data from within their massive In-House resources! Clearly, after what must have been much investigation and diligent review, they have made a landmark decision which will forever change the way Chiropractic neck manipulation is viewed.

Being #1 in the Nation, within their respective health care field, gives them the unprecedented voice of reason and power. They have some of the brightest and the best Doctors in the world. ( They employ THOUSANDS!) Their growth is unsurpassed and their record impeccable.

They have once again raised the bar and I would submit that
it is because of these types of well thought out and researched decisions that they continue to experience tremndous growth!

Again, MANY THANKS for recognizing the ridiculousness of Upper Neck Manipulations and forbidding this barbaric and useless practice. Maybe now Chiropractors will start getting the message.

Take good care and thank you for listening.

I had a friend text me and said you were at it again “billy”
You are probably the most disrespectful person I have ever come in contact with. Troy, you are not worth responding to.
First: billy, dont call my office and whine. I’m to busy actually taking care of people.
2nd: I still think it’s funny that you won’t respond to mds entry. What about the DOs. It probably has something to do with the fact that you work for them so you have to watch yourself.
#rd; Kaiser is ran by medics who realize they are losing money to the Chiropractors. It is always money driven when it has anything to do with medicine. This will also be overturned. I assure you.
I found a bilat pars defec on a 13 year old that 3 mds missed. The Neuro I refered him to said I probably saved him from very serious injury. All three mds cleared him for footbsll. So much for your superior education.
Speaking of your superior education. What is the number 1 cause of death in this country? Medical error.
Chiropractors have never caused death or any other serious injury to anyone. Give me 1 name of any Chiropractor who has. You can’t.
But my practice, which is referral based only, is up 27% already this year over last year. Last year was a record year. I would love to see how well you do billy if you had to depend on patient refferals for your income. It might get a little tough with your sparkling personality.
You might want to spend a little time reviewing the Wilks case instead of blowing nonsense on here.
Linda, I’m sorry for you lack of true knowledge. I wish you could tell the 15,000 patients I have treated or at least the 200 I treated today that what I do is “useless” I assure you they would set you straight. Continue taking your meds and hopefully you will wake up before it’s too late

Good Morning Mr. Tim,
Sorry but I am afraid I must disagree with you.
If you were to invest a little time and do a little research you will find a number of Coroner Reports where DEATH is indeed attributed to a Chiropractic Manipulation. In fact Canada has three alone that confirmed Chiropractic involvement specifically. These were HUGE investigations that soaked up major financial resources. Their results were made public so it’s really not that hard to locate. I guess you just have never heard of these Coroner Reports. That’s ok….I think I am beginning to understand why you have taken this attack position. Remember Mr. Tim….KNOWLEGE IS POWER!

I mean no disrespect but whenever anyone spouts off at the mouth BEFORE having taken the time or investigating the FACTS, I simply lose confidence in them. Sadly my confidence in anything you have to say know is significantly marred.

Hence, if you have an instructor or perhaps someone who has been in the trade a little longer than yourself, I would love to converse.

And no Timmy, the decision by Kaiser will not be reversed. You can put that one in the Bank. This company, unlike you, have done the research and determined that Chiropractic has no health benefit of signifigence. They have decided to invest in more proven procedures. There is as much chance of this happening as it would be for the Canadian Government to reverse its decision to toss out and yank the subsidized funding they used to provide to the chiropractors.
So Sorry.

I know it hurts when one is proven wrong. But the first step in growth is accepting when you are wrong. It’s time to take those blinders of and remove the ear plugs. To continue attacking the likes of accomplished Doctors and the medical community does NOTHING to enhance support for your “cause”.

Please try and stick to facts and we will all benefit. I have done the research on this subject matter and have first hand experience dealing with the after effects of a Neck Manipulation gone horribly wrong. I am a caregiver for a Chiropractor Stroke Victim.

So…a piece of kind advice my friend; when one finds themselves in a hole the first thing you must do is STOP DIGGING! In other words, put the shovel down and climb out. There is plenty of great information on bogs like this and in the Medical Journals if you take the time to follow the bouncing ball.

WOWSA! I am thrilled to hear that your “business” has increased by 27% Timmy! This is wonderful news!

I was very worried that with all the bad publicity lately what all with the media exposing the true dangers of chiropractic neck manipulations causing catastrophic injuries, that you guys would not be able to afford your new expected hiked rates for obtaining proper Mal- Practice “Medical” Insurance!

Oh yes, and Linda, you raise some fabulous and well articulated points. It is indeed no secret that these chiropractors carry the bare minimum “insurance” at best.

With the large growing number of chiropractic victims currently being reported, the spotlight is now on high beam! Gone are the old days when people were not connecting the dots. And because of the excellent media attention to this problem the occurrence rate is being reported like never before!

I am happy to report that the public now have a better understanding of what has been causing their stroke and people are informing their MD’s of recent chiropractic visits when problems first arise. They are describing their symptoms following immediate neck adjustments and aware of the exact time frames that follow. They are now clear that sometimes a stroke does not manifest itself until hours, days, even weeks later! People were just not making the connection!

In a day and age when people are living longer than ever, thanks to REAL Doctors, I am elated that we are finaly moving ahead with chiropractic reform! This news can only equate to SAVING MORE lives from untold heartache and injury.

Again, I applaud the Kaiser Group for their insight and dedication to making this world a safer and healthier place for all.

Thanks again for the terrific news Tim and keep up the good work.

Be well everyone and have a great day. I know mine just got better!!!!!

Sorry to disappoint you gang but the truth is that despite what the Chiropractors claim on this site, their neck twisting business is suffering ten fold.

I have MANY contacts who have emailed me personaly to state the parking lots of Chiropractors are empty.One Chiropractor has asked his staff to use of the stalls directly in front of his office window. Gone are the days of leaving these stalls for their “patients”.

The only good thing about this fact is that many local small malls and shoping centres can now boast additional parking spaces available for THEIR buying consumers.

I feel the chiropractic trade has suffered serious damage in their quest for legitimacy. Frankly it was only a matter of time….just for the life of me can’t figure out what took everyone so long! this will go down in my opinion as the biggest hoax in medical history.I guess desperate folks will grasp for anything in their time of need. It hurts though to think so many people have been ripped off into believing junk science. Upper neck manipulation will go the way of a false belief system.

For some the placebo effect will remain beneficial in their minds but now that the true odds of the different 24 types of strokes occuring from upper neck twisting are known, I suspect this too will diminish into the abyss.

Be well friends and enjoy life. And remember: Just say NO to Rapid Neck Twisting! Choose life!

Had an interesting email by a famous Doctor. He suggested that we encourage all chiropractor Victims to write, email and phone Kaiser Permanente expressing their gratitude for Kaisers decision to CANCEL coverage for upper cervical neck manipulations!

After much thought I couldn’t agree more! Yes….by showing support in this manner, the message of support will be cemented. Especially when they hear from the victims themselves as nothing speaks with more sincerity or authority and it puts the power back into the end consumer’s hands.
Those who have been affected most. The VICTIMS OF NECK TWISTING GONE BAD. Remember folks, statistics mean Zippo when YOU are the victim of a careless of needless upper neck manipulation! And of course we all agree that where there is no clear benefit to an action and possible harm or catastrophic injury, risk can not be measured. Put simply…it makes no sense to do the crazy procedure in the first place!

I am so glad the victims of chiropractic are being listened to. Kudos to Kaiser Permenante and all the other preceding smaller Insurance Companies who had already abolished coverage for this barbaric neck cranking procedure.

It’s great to be finally moving into reality and the 21 Century of modern medicine. I think I’ll go out and celebrate this major victory for mankind! Here’s to common sense prevailing once again. Kinda makes you feel all nice and warm inside.

Somebody throw the Emperor a blanket for goodness sakes.

Tim I knew you were out there listening, glad to have you back. It is amazing that you have the time to chime in with 200 patients/day, looks like you have made the most out of those practice building seminars that pass for “continuing education” in the chiro industry. As far as the Kaiser decision exlcuding neck twisting being reversed, don’t hold your breath, my guess is that this will be the first of many such wise decsions. Don’t take it so hard, you still have that thriving practice saving the lives of tiny newborns in NICU’s all across OKC that you told me about. Remind me though, what exactly is it that you are curing when you twist the neck of a 3 pound newborn?

One more thing timmy, it is “Wilk” without an s.

LOL….once again you nailed it Doc!
This Tim fellow is hilarious! But just think about something for a second;

Hmm…Let’s take this comedian at face value (his word) and assume he is telling the “truth” for a change. Oh come on….work with me here!
For Timothy to treat 200 patients a day as he claims, based on an average working day of 8 hours that would equate to about 2 MINUTES PER PATIENT!! Oh wait…lets be generous and just forget about the time it takes this “patient” to fill out any forms or taking off their shoes and coat.

It’s no wonder they don’t diagnose what the ailment might be! This leaves only about enough time to rush the poor hapless victim to the drop table and quickly crank their necks. And that’s about it. And perhaps a smile and a handshake. Maybe he has a special 9501264NCM (neck cranking machine)where it’s automatic or something. You just have your potential victim stick his or her head into this contraption and throw the switch or something.

Wait….maybe he has a Merry Go Round spinning in the center of his office and as they whip past. All he would have to do is just kind of grab each neck as it speeds by.
Man, 200 people a day! This guy must be worn out from all that twisting…day after day after day! Surely this should qualify as some sort of Guinness World Record.

Respect and credibility is EARNED my friend. Look it up in the dictionary Timmy. Then we will entertain your bizarre and lame rhetoric.

Be well everyone!

This is great. I can work up the simple minded easily. Actually I see 200 in 6 hours. I have seen 300 in 6 before. I know you can’t understand. That would take more thought than you have the capacity for. Sorry Billy. I put an s by accident. I’m sure you spend alot more time at the keyboard than I do. I would still review the case. It might come in handy someday.
Still no response about DOs.
I want all of you experts to look in the mirror and ask yourself this question. When was the last time I stopped thinking about myself long enough to help someone else? If your truthful you should stay off here and do something worth while

LOL…you can put the shovel down any time Tim.

Have a great weekend folks!

For those interested:
Chiropractor in
New York – 500 per day
Indinana – 1000 per day
Tulsa – 250 in 3 1/2 hrs
Chicago – 200 per day
Orange county – 2500 per week
I could go on but hopefully you get the point.
Why do people flock to these quacks year after year?
Why would mothers take their defenseless babies by the thousands to these killers?
Why do anesthesiologist catch people on fire?

Actually I’m just kidding. I see about 10 patients a day. I make them wait up to 2 hours before I see them. Then I run a couple of thousand dollars worth of useless test. I make them wait for 2 more weeks before I give them the test results. But I normally can’t help them so I refer to a specialist who will do the same thing. After about 6 months I finally decide it must all be in their head and prescribe Prozac. Even if it’s a child. Prozac cures everything.

Hey Billy the masses are starting to listen to your voice. So much so, how did your AMA approved seminar bashing chiropractic go? Oh wait it didn’t. [text removed by blog creator] You hate us we hate you. Get on with your life. No one has ever saved a life…. News flash everyone dies. I promise you that chiropractic care improves quality of life for 92% of those who choose to use it. [text removed by blog creator] You should really focus on your love of anesthesiology and stop your daily hating. Keep makeing your claims and they will keep falling on mostly def ears….heck even the devil has followers.

OK tim I don’t want you to wonder any longer.

Regarding the “DO’s”, I work with lots of osteopathic physicians in multiple specialities and none of them utilize manipulative therapy in their respective practices. I realize that SMT still is taught in DO schools but over the years it has been reduced to a very minor part of their training and while I suspect some of the older practitioners still utilize it to some degree the newer grads, most of whom now undergo extensive post-grad residency training, have pretty much abandoned it. For those who do utilize SMT, most use it in a safe and scientific manner in the treatment of legitimate musculoskeletal ailments in a similar manner to few “scientifically based” chiropractors out there like Sam Homola, Chuck DuVall, and others who lean towards NACM. This is opposed to quacks like you and your buddies who still follow the Palmer vision of a mystical practice that allows you to locate and remove the illusive vertebral subluxation complex thereby allowing the bodies “innate intelligence” to heal all ailments, everything from PMS to infantile colic.

Regarding the Wilk case, I am actually very familiar with it and you may not be aware that the judge who issued the final ruling, Susan Getzandaner(sp?), specifically pointed out that her ruling was in no way an endorsement of chiropractic but rather a reflection of the fact that the AMA violated the Sherman Act. So if your reference to Wilk is some sort of a threat to me I gladly await the day when you and your buddies try to take me to court for speaking out about chiroquackery as loudly and as often as possible. I am not at all afraid tim, all I am doing is speaking the truth.

One bit of advice my friend, while you obviously are quite proud of your chiro prowess, you might want to back down on the bragging a bit. To some, the fact that you “treat” hundreds of patients daily makes them wonder about the quality of “care” which you are delivering. Just a thought.

And lastly, regarding the implication that my willingness to devote significant amounts of my valuable time to this endeavor is an indication of my lack of concern for the welfare of the general population, I would suggest to you that if I stop one patient from suffering a completely unnecessary stroke and the lifetime of disability that would follow then it will have all been worthwhile.

Have a good weekend Tim, maybe we can talk again next week.

Wes, you must be really proud of yourself with your recent “victory”. Great strategy, I must give credit where credit is due. What is it exactly that you and your buddies are so afraid of? If I am not speaking the truth, you should pursue legal action against me, and as I told Tim I welcome that day. Otherwise, it looks like you just are not comfortable with the facts reaching the general public. Either way, it wont’ stop me. You may have been successful in silencing a politically correct organization like AMA but you won’t stop me and more importantly you will never stop the victims, or their families in the case of the dead ones. Ten years ago most of the victims really were not aware that it was you and your colleagues who had caused their stroke, but they are now and they are not ever going to back down. This weeks monumental move at Kaiser was the first of many. I assure you the victims are now organizing to take this strategy all across North America. So pat yourself on the back for shutting me down for a couple of hours, but don’t gloat too long or you might wake up and find yourself looking for a new job.

Good Morning Dr. Kinsinger!

Our family enjoys and appreciates reading your responses!
In fact we look forward to viewing this blog whenever we can! Our lives are very full just looking after the basics these days but when we do get the time to stop and study and read it’s contents we are comforted that the general public is being educated.

Your dedication to resolving this matter is reassuring to say the least. on behalf of all Chiropractor Victims…WE THANK YOU!

We find it particularly revealing when you use their own words against them and expose their folly.A perfect example is this last charade of statements from Timmy, where he boasts of treating hundreds of patients per day. Once again you pin point the irony and ridiculousness of his comments.

My guess is Tim and Wes are both students of Chiropractic and their parents are leaning hard on them to drop out and demand a full refund.

Word has it that many parents , given the recent media coverage , are perplexed and distraught over this turn in events. And yes, when Institutions like Kaiser drive the last spike, others PAY CLOSE attention! ( I just talked to an RN who worked for Kaiser for many years….it was VERY insightful!)

I have gone back and read “between the lines” and have made several assessments. One is that most Chiropractors are bitter and angry about what is happening as of late. They resent the fact that the general public has access to this type of informative information. And sadly, they take out their feelings of frustrations upon those of us who have dedicated some of our time to enlighten folks of the true dangers of upper neck manipulation.

It’s time they stopped shooting the messengers and just focused on what is best for the public. Change is NOT a bad thing. I have no grudge with chiropractors in general but I do find it rather disturbing that the Chiropractic Colleges are still teaching barbaric and un-scientific procedures such as neck twisting. Good grief!

Most of my days and nights are spent caring for such a victim. My wonderful wife.
For my young wife,who suffered catastrophic injury from a neck twisting session gone horribly wrong, change will never happen soon enough. We are however elated at the recent decision by Kaiser and will continue to spread the word.

Yes Dr. Kinsinger, our lives have been ruined in so many ways. To think that we paid to have this happen just makes it all the harder to accept.

We shudder to think of all the past young healthy people who also fell into the trap of believing Chiropractic Neck Manipulation would be the way to maintain good health. For those before us there is little hope but we do see a light FINALLY at the end of the tunnel.
With Canada tossing out coverage for Chiropractic treatment and now the Kaiser decision to halt coverage, the road ahead seems much more manageable. We know, because of these affirmative actions , lives will ultimately be saved from needless ruin.

Dr. Kinsinger, you are right. I apologize for wasting your time. What started out as a little fun turned ugly. You are right, I only see about 10 -15 patients per day. I know there are alot of chiros out there seeing 100s per day. I guess I just got caught up in the moment. I have promised myself this will be the last post or time I will visit this site. I see this is dedicated to all the victems and I shouldn’t interfere.You are more than welcome to join me on facebook. I would love to share your wisdom with a couple of thousand others.That goes for you Troy or anyone else that would like to share their opinions on a larger level.There is no point responding to me here. I won’t read it.
God bless all of you

Dear Tim,
I am glad you have seen the error of your ways and decided to come clean. There is a valuable lesson here for other Chiropractic students and Chiropractors who deliver anything less than the truth.

We now live in the day and age of smart change. Of computers that can deliver warnings and messages at the speed of light. What we are entering into here is the introduction to a mandate for change. Smart healthcare systems are helping to lower the cost of therapy by as much as 90%.

The transformation is just beginning. You are not alone Tim!

The benefits of Chiropractors ceasing to do these dangerous neck manipulations is just one more important step.Imagine how a smarter planet can change our lives for the better.We need to seize this moment of clarity and continue to educate the less informed.As we look to embrace common sense, we must share this information with others.

With singularity of purpose. That is the unshakable force you are experiencing right now. That is the path of medical science. Medical science is in a state of constant forward motion mapping out a better and safer world for all of us.

Science is the business of solving problems my friend. Sometimes we must give in to logic. This would be one of those times.

Remember folks: Just say NO to rapid upper neck manipulations! Enjoy life.

It was very big of you Tim to admit you were wrong. And that you have the courage to admit you lied to everyone.Thanks you!

Our observations on this and many other blogs have resulted in similar admissions. You are not alone however few chiropractors admit when they tell lies.

Perhaps now, folks on this blog will be encouraged to speak the truth and stick to scientific facts. It’s like a constant check list. There is a lot of well informed eyes overseeing what is written on this blog. All good!

I always knew that there was hope that you would review the facts on this blog and admit that Dr. Kinsinger was right all along.

Many thanks to all the studious people on this blog who have taken time out of their busy lives to educate and inform others of the serious dangers surrounding upper neck manipulations.

Many thanks to Dr. Bill Kinsinger for his excellent undercover work. By exposing the tactics and ridiculousness of various chiropractors in action, you have single handedly brought their house of cards to the ground.

I would also like to commend Dr. Murray Katz and Jan Bellamy for their tireless work. I am always amazed when I see the generosity of others. These folks love life and have such a burning desire to help mankind. It restores my faith in the human race.

Be well everyone and have a good week!

Amazing! [text removed by blog creator] Tim actually sees many more than he claims. He has practiced for over 15 years. I have practiced for 9 years. If it is so prominent than we have been doing it for years, why not more media coverage on this horrible act? I’m not debating you as your views are obviously unwavering. Wouldn’t be correct for you to say stroke is caused by anyone but us. This great science you speak of is what has put all your deadly drugs on the market as well. Great science. Science doesn’t prove a god exists but he does.
Billy did I say my group or I shut you down? Look internally, and at an attorney not willing to back you up on the fight. Have fun guys. People reading look at the trail here. They promised that the CT rulings would ruin us, it didn’t. Than dr Billy tried to educate Oklahoma doctors on the dangers of chiropractic and he was shut down internally (and by his own group the AMA), now kaiser will be the death of us? Have fun in lala land guys. I know thousands of chiros who treat hundreds a day…..in 9 years of practice, I have never ever heard of one adjustment causing stroke!!!!

Wes,
I’m sorry but you Wesley, just as Tim, have developed a habit of telling outright lies.This does NOTHING to project a trustworthy converstaion and certainly taints our view towards chiropractors in general. By constantly quoting mis truths you do more harm to your trade than ANYTHING we could ever post.
You know very well of strokes being caused from Chiropractic upper neck manipulation. Coroner reports , victims on this and other sites, past family members representing lost ones…YOU have seen and been exposed to much of the evidence. So PLEASE do not insult our intelligence with your silly comments about stroke not being caused by chiropractic adjustment. Read your own studies for crying out loud. Sheesh!
But why am I wasting my time….believe what you will.

I think it’s time you followed in Tims footsteps and apologized for misleading the public. Deception has a way of revealing it’s ugly head. And here, once again folks , is the sure tell signs of such desperation in action.

It would apppear that a number of the chiropractors on this and other sites are in a state of denial and sheer desperation. Their livelyhoods are on the brink of collapse. The Government and the health care system are moving ahead with a complete boycot of any and all services provided by these characters. It’s only a matter of time.

Sad thing is it didn’t have to end this way. Had the chiropractors adopted a more scientific standard and quit with the rapid neck manipulation, I think they may have been able to play some sort of small role if the general publics health. But for me , my view is that its all but over for this group.

Probably go down as the biggest hoax in Medical history. I think the reason it lasted as long as it did was that we live in an instant gratification society. We are alwasy looking for the “quick fix”.Some miracle.

This neck twisting thing would be tolerated as some sort of pacebo credit if it were not for the fact that it’s just getting too expensive for the various hospital wards to care for the Chiropractic injuries.

So,sorry Wes that you insist on speaking babble. Perhaps once you research the facts ( just take your time ) and admit to what is happening, I will be persuaded to enlighten you. If you insist on living in your fantasy world of make believe, try the “jokes on line” section.

Take care everyone and remember: JUST SAY NO TO UPPER NECK MANIPULATION!

Wes,
I’m sorry, but you Wesley, just as Tim, have developed a habit of telling outright lies.This does NOTHING to project a trustworthy converstaion and certainly taints our view towards chiropractors in general. By constantly quoting mis- truths you do more harm to your trade than ANYTHING we could ever post.

You know very well of strokes being caused from Chiropractic upper neck manipulation. Coroner reports , victims TESTIMONIALS on this and other sites, past family members representing lost ones…YOU have seen and been exposed to much of the evidence. So PLEASE do not insult our intelligence with your silly comments about stroke not being caused by chiropractic adjustment. Read your own studies for crying out loud. Sheesh!

But why am I wasting my time….believe what you will.

I think it’s time you followed in Tims footsteps and apologized for misleading the public. Deception has a way of revealing it’s ugly head. And here, once again folks , is the sure tell signs of such desperation in action.

It would apppear that a number of the chiropractors on this and other sites are in a state of denial and sheer desperation. Their livelyhoods are on the brink of collapse. The Government and the health care system are moving ahead with a complete boycot of any and all services provided by these characters. It’s only a matter of time.

Sad thing is it didn’t have to end this way. Had the chiropractors adopted a more scientific standard and quit with the rapid neck manipulation, I think they may have been able to play some sort of small role if the general publics health. But for me , my view is that its all but over for this group.

Probably go down as the biggest hoax in Medical history. I think the reason it lasted as long as it did was that we live in an instant gratification society. We are alwasy looking for the “quick fix”.Some miracle.

This neck twisting thing would be tolerated as some sort of pacebo credit if it were not for the fact that it’s just getting too expensive for the various hospital wards to care for the Chiropractic injuries.

So,sorry Wes that you insist on speaking babble. Perhaps once you research the facts ( just take your time ) and admit to what is happening, I will be persuaded to enlighten you. If you insist on living in your fantasy world of make believe, try the “jokes on line” section.

Take care everyone and remember: JUST SAY NO TO UPPER NECK MANIPULATION!

Just a little advice;
Perhaps Wes it is best if you try and refrain from using Tim as a statistical example. Tim has already succeeded in showing us that his word means nothing.

Credibility for the Chiropractors is now effectively at an all time low in my opinion.

What does our belief in God ( and we do!) have anything to do with your definition of what science proves?

To try and compare rapid upper neck manipulation to ones belief in God is a bit of a stretch. Even for you Wes.

You make me laugh.

You people are hilarious. Have fun on your planet. I too am tired of your holier than though attitudes. Friend Timmy on facebook and I will be looking for your conversations. Btw it’s westley, not Wesley but good attempt. Keep up the name calling and hoaxing to gain support for your cause that even the AMA stears clear of. You all don’t need god, in your eyes you all are gods. I say again even the devil has a following. Have a great one as this will be my last post here as well. I look for you all on facebook (a bigger audience for your cause). Billy with friends like the AMA shutting you down, who needs enemies:)

Good morning Wes aka/Tim,
I am pleased that you have FINALLY recognized that your weak “debating skills” have no place on scientific forums such as this. Go along and play in another sand box. Maybe just post on Chiropractic web sites where you are of cult like mindedness. You have not swayed my opinion of the nonsense you continue to do one single iota. Chiropractic is a scam and a hoax. It’s just too bad it is also so stinking dangerous.

I do not profess to be holier than thou, but I must say I take great offence when you keep referring to God with a small g. Perhaps this is significant to the way you view your relationship with Him. Small.

I would encourage you to reach out and dig deep. Take a good long look in the mirror. Ask yourself: Self…can I continue to buck all the evidence including the recent study just published confirming the number of “known” deaths as a cause of Chiropractic upper neck manipulations? Can I, with good conscience AND THE RISKS DOCUMENTED, continue to put otherwise healthy young people at needless risk of catastrophic harm? Can I continue to call myself a “Doctor”?

There is a reason that the Canadian Government kicked you fellows out of the Health Care System. There is a reason Insurance companies are refusing to cover neck manipulations. There is a reason the law suits are multiplying. There is a reason that Doctors and victims have dedicated so much time to alert and passionately educate the general public, ALL at no charge or compensation. There is a reason that Kaiser Permanente has dropped chiropractic upper neck manipulation.

GET WITH THE PROGRAM CHIROQUACKERS BEFORE IT’S too late AND YOU ALL FIND YOURSELVES IN THE SOUP LINE.
Thanks and have a great day.

From International Journal of Clinical Practice
Deaths after Chiropractic: A Review of Published Cases
E. Ernst
Authors and Disclosures
Posted: 08/30/2010; Int J Clin Pract. 2010;64(10):1162-1165. © 2010 Blackwell Publishing

Objective: The aim of this study was to summarise all cases in which chiropractic spinal manipulation was followed by death.
Design: This study is a systematic review of case reports.
Methods: Literature searches in four electronic databases with no restrictions of time or language.
Main outcome measure: Death.
Results: Twenty six fatalities were published in the medical literature and many more might have remained unpublished. The alleged pathology usually was a vascular accident involving the dissection of a vertebral artery.
Conclusion: Numerous deaths have occurred after chiropractic manipulations. The risks of this treatment by far outweigh its benefit.
Introduction
Vascular accidents after upper spinal manipulation are a well-recognised problem (e.g.[1,2]). Dissection of a vertebral artery, caused by extension and rotation of the neck beyond the physiological range of motion, is thought to be the underlying mechanism.[2] Several deaths have been reported as a consequence. Some proponents of chiropractic seem to believe that the critical evaluation of this evidence amounts to a ‘scare story’ (Chairman of the UK General Chiropractic Council)[3] or to ‘puffing up (the evidence) out of all proportion’ (President of the British Chiropractic Association).[4] A responsible approach to serious therapeutic risks, however, requires an open discussion of the facts.
In this review, I aimed to provide the basis for such a discussion by summarising all fatalities which occurred after chiropractic spinal manipulation and were published in the medical literature.

Methods
Electronic searches were conducted in the following electronic databases: Medline, Embase, AMED, Cochrane Library (September 2009). No restrictions of time or language were applied. Search terms were chiropractic, spinal manipulation, vascular accidents, stroke, death and fatality. In addition, our own departmental files and the bibliographies of the articles thus located were searched. Several experts were also contacted for further data. Case reports were included if they provided information on human patients who had died after receiving one or more treatments from a chiropractor. Data were extracted from the included articles according to predefined criteria (Table 1).

Results
Twenty-six fatalities were published since 1934 in 23 articles (Table 1).[5–27]
Most of the victims were relatively young; 14 were below the age of 40. There was a slight majority of female patients. The type of complication associated with death frequently related to a vascular accident leading to thrombosis and cerebral infarction. The time between treatment and death ranged from 1 h to 58 days; in 10 cases, it was 1 day or less. Unfortunately, the published information was often incomplete.
Many other fatalities seem to have remained unpublished. For instance, the testimony of the chiropractor Preston Long for a court in Connecticut recently listed the family names of nine victims: Mathiason, Solsbury, Mc Cornick, Venegas, Bedenbaugh, Lewis, Fawcett, Parisien, Standt. Long also states that ‘many others [are] unknown hidden behind legal agreements of silence’.[28] A website names further North American fatalities: Linda Epping (California), G. Fowden (Utah), Ronald Grainger (Alberta), John Hoffman (Maryland), Renate Dora Labonte (Ontario), Jose Lopez (California), Donald Pereyra (Connecticut), Elizabeth A. Roth (Ontario) and Kimberly Lee Strohecker (Pennsylvania).[29]
Discussion
This systematic review demonstrates that numerous deaths have been associated with chiropractic. Usually high-velocity, short-lever thrusts of the upper spine with rotation are implicated. They are believed to cause vertebral arterial dissection in predisposed individuals which, in turn, can lead to a chain of events including stroke and death.[1,2,26,30]
Many chiropractors claim that, because arterial dissection can also occur spontaneously, causality between the chiropractic intervention and arterial dissection is not proven. However, when carefully evaluating the known facts, one does arrive at the conclusion that causality is at least likely (e.g.[30,31]). Even if it were merely a remote possibility, the precautionary principle in healthcare would mean that neck manipulations should be considered unsafe until proven otherwise. Moreover, there is no good evidence for assuming that neck manipulation is an effective therapy for any medical condition.[32] Thus, the risk-benefit balance for chiropractic neck manipulation fails to be positive.
Reliable estimates of the frequency of vascular accidents are prevented by the fact that under-reporting is known to be substantial. In a survey of UK neurologists, for instance, under-reporting of serious complications was 100%.[33] Those cases which are published often turn out to be incomplete. Of 40 case reports of serious adverse effects associated with spinal manipulation, nine failed to provide any information about the clinical outcome.[34] Incomplete reporting of outcomes might therefore further increase the true number of fatalities. Obviously, the present article is not aimed at providing incidence figures; this would require a different methodology entirely. To date, no reliable incidence data are available.
This review is focussed on deaths after chiropractic, yet neck manipulations are, of course, used by other healthcare professionals as well. The reason for this focus is simple: chiropractors are more frequently associated with serious manipulation-related adverse effects than osteopaths, physiotherapists, doctors or other professionals. Of the 40 cases of serious adverse effects mentioned above, 28 can be traced back to a chiropractor and none to an osteopath.[34] A review of complications after spinal manipulations by any type of healthcare professional included three deaths related to osteopaths, nine to medical practitioners, none to a physiotherapist, one to a naturopath and 17 to chiropractors.[35] This article also summarised a total of 265 vascular accidents of which 142 were linked to chiropractors. Another review of complications after neck manipulations published by 1997 included 177 vascular accidents, 32 of which were fatal. The vast majority of these cases were associated with chiropractic and none with physiotherapy.[36] The most obvious explanation for the dominance of chiropractic is that chiropractors routinely employ high-velocity, short-lever thrusts on the upper spine with a rotational element, while the other healthcare professionals use them much more sparingly.[37,38]
In conclusion, numerous deaths have been associated with chiropractic neck manipulations. There are reasons to suspect that under-reporting is substantial and reliable incidence figures do not exist. The risks of chiropractic neck manipulations by far outweigh their benefits. Healthcare professionals should advise the public accordingly.

Wake up Chiropractors…WAKE UP!

Good Morning Doctor Kinsinger,
Question;
Do you think there will be a ripple effect now that Kaiser has tossed Chiropractic Neck Twisting out on it’s ear?

And what media sources would you recommend to further this message besides the Internet?

Many thanks for your excellant investigative research into this serious matter. It’s so refreshing to hear the voice of reason.
Regrds,
Your Fan!

PS:
If there was an award of excellence for exposing Chiropractic for the fraud that it is…it would surely be on YOUR mantle. The video you took while undercover is something we play over to all we meet. It’s better than watching Americas Funniest Videos!!!!

Thanks for the laughs!

Brian,
Just want to express my grattitude and thank you for providing this site!
Your choice in naming this bog ” Smoke & Mirrors ” is so appropriate indeed!

It is sites like this folks, that makes our world a safer, healthier and ultimately happier place in which to live.

Be well.

I can not begin to express how delighted and happy I am at reading the news regarding Kaiser Permanente giving Chiropractors the BOOT!

Kudos to their managers for recognizing this medical hoax for what it is! We need to focus on REAL healthcare. On REAL solutions to the many problems facing our Medicare system. Not some nut jobs idea of innate intelligence and removal of so called fictitious subluxation!!! The day of neck twisting infants are hopefully going to become a thing of the past. Yes….we will be ridiculed for letting this stupidity go on for so long. But at least the powers that be are finally acting!

Toss these numbskulls out of the arena. Banish them from ever twisting another poor should neck. Let’s put away the notion once and for all that Chiroquacker can cure ANYTHING people. Wake up and smell the coffee….it’s brewed.

So much for statistics.
I sit here in my wheelchair picking away at computer keys. Gone are the days when I could type in excess of 100 words per minute. I use one hand now. Limited but at least it works.

I can brush my teeth now. As long as someone puts the toothpaste on the toothbrush and brings it to me.

I can only sit for so long. I get so uncomfortable by days end. My husband loves me. He helps me. The caregivers help me. I have given up on ever enjoying that little thing called privacy or independence. In my world these will never exist again.

I am a chiropractor victim. My voice can only be really heard by what I type. Yes…I have a voice machine but is so laborious. I never signed any Consent form. I was never once told of the dangers or any risks. I mistakenly trusted my Chiropractor, thinking he was a real Doctor. Big mistake.

My lack of knowledge regarding what could result from a Chiropractic neck manipulation caused my whole world to crumble. Intimacy to fade away. The thought of a stroll down the beach gone forever. Even restaurants pose a challenge for me these days but at least now, after several years, I can swallow a little.Washroom access …..well that’s another story!

I used to enjoy going into show homes. Now we drive by and I can only dream abut what is inside.

My world now rotates around the schedule of others. My ability to earn an income gone. My career shattered. I will never work again.

I wish I could turn back the hands of time. I would have NEVER agreed to let a Chiropractor twist my neck. So much for maintaining health!

IF ONLY I could find the right words to persuade Chiropractors to stop doing this upper neck manipulation. It is so hard when I hear of other young healthy people getting injured from this needless practice. I cry. It breaks my heart. I can not express the pain I feel.

I am encouraged by the recent Kaiser decision. For me it is too late. For others there is hope.

Hey Troy, good to hear from you. Yes, I do believe the Kaiser decision is just the beginning. Our health care system here in the USA is in real jeopardy and costs have to be controlled. The insurance companies have known for years that chiro treatment was essentially useless and a total waste of valuable resources but they have been forced by “consumer demand” and state insurance mandates to provide these “benefits”. However, the growing awareness of the dangers of neck manipulation has given them the opportunity to draw a line in the sand so to speak and while they will continue to provide chiro coverage at least they are going to restrict the types of “treatment” specifically prohibiting the most dangerous activity, upper neck manipulation.

As far as spreading the message, I would encourage you to work with the various victims organizations and continue to contact all local and national media outlets demanding that they shine the light on this significant public health issue. Certainly providing the major insurance carriers with the evidence is not a bad idea as well. While upper neck manipulation and stroke are of great concern to us all, don’t forget to point out that the prevalent anti-vaccination philosophy in the chiro industry is yet another public health concern. The current Whooping cough epidemic is certainly a result of a growing number of naive and scared young parents choosing to avoid standard childhood immunization, many after being “counseled” by chiropractic “doctors” who caution these parents and instead urge regular chiro “treatments” for their infants and children as a “natural” means of offering immunity to childhood illnesses that had been nearly eradicated from our continent. Our system of childhood vaccinations is arguably the most significant public health measure in the last 100 years and these clowns, who have never been near a medical school, are openly and confidently scaring parents away from this inexpensive, effective and safe means of immunization.

We aim to please. Thanks–but I was hoping for a more lively discussion.

LOL! Now don’t get me going Bryan!

Statement of Concern
STATEMENT OF CONCERN TO THE CANADIAN PUBLIC FROM CANADIAN NEUROLOGISTS REGARDING THE DEBILITATING AND FATAL DAMAGE MANIPULATION OF THE NECK MAY CAUSE TO THE NERVOUS SYSTEM.

We Canadian neurologists hereby express our strong concern and thereby issue this warning to Canadians. The public must be made aware that the neurological damage that can result subsequent to upper neck manipulation can be debilitating and fatal.

We make the following recommendations for the attention of the Canadian public, the practitioners of manipulation, the medical community, the provincial Ministries of Health and the health care professional regulatory bodies.

Our concerns are significant. Stroke and death due to neck manipulation has been reported in the scientific literature for over 50 years. (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10). New deaths, in the past few years, have been reported to the Canadian Stroke Consortium. (11). The Canadian Stroke Consortium recently published a major prospective study. (12) The latest data from the Stroke Consortium indicates that “more than 100 cases of dissection per year are associated with neck manipulation” (13). The resulting stroke and debilitation from such a large number is very significant.

A recent study by the Institute of Clinical Evaluative Sciences (ICES Ontario) indicates that patients with posterior circulation strokes under the age of 45 are 5 times more likely than controls to have visited a chiropractor within one week of the event (14).

CONCERN NUMBER ONE
PHYSICIANS NEED GREATER DIAGNOSTIC AWARENESS OF THE NEUROLOGICAL COMPLICATIONS THAT MAY RESULT FROM NECK MANIPULATION

Many physicians are not aware of the risks associated with neck manipulation and thus fail to undertake the appropriate investigations (15.) A history of neck manipulation or severe neck pain accompanied by signs or symptoms of stroke should prompt an immediate referral to a neurologist for examination and appropriate investigation.

Multiple neurological complications can result subsequent to neck manipulation. The most dramatic is arterial dissection leading to stroke and death. Cervical manipulation most commonly causes stroke occurring in the back part of the brain. This can be particularly disabling as it can affect such basic functions as swallowing, speaking and walking.

We recommend that the neurology community undertake an educational program for primary care and emergency room physicians to increase diagnostic awareness of the dangers of neck manipulation and its multiple neurological complications.

CONCERN NUMBER TWO
THERE IS AN URGENT NEED FOR THE PUBLIC TO BE FULLY AND PROPERLY INFORMED OF THE DANGERS OF NECK MANIPULATION.

Members of the public are largely unaware of the complications of neck manipulation. Well-documented complications include damage to the nerves in the neck, compression of the spinal cord by unstable discs, tearing of the arteries in the neck, stroke and death.

The most significant complication of manipulation is stroke secondary to torn arteries in the neck. The first symptom may be sudden neck pain following neck manipulation (12). Patients often ignore this pain, as it may have been neck pain that prompted the visit in the first place.

Other important symptoms suggestive of stroke include visual disturbances, nausea, dizziness, poor co-ordination, and weakness or numbness on one side of the body. The onset of these symptoms should prompt an immediate medical assessment. Under no circumstances should an individual allow their necks to be manipulated if any of these symptoms are present.

We recommend that the medical community undertake an information campaign to increase public awareness of the risks of neck manipulation. Special attention should be paid to increasing awareness of the symptoms of stroke following manipulation.

CONCERN NUMBER THREE
THE INDIVIDUAL PATIENT NEEDS TO BE FULLY AND DIRECTLY AWARE THAT SERIOUS RISKS DO EXIST.

We endorse the major recommendations of the 1998 inquest into the manipulation-induced death of Laurie Jean Mathiason of Saskatoon, Saskatchewan. This Inquest recommended that the “risk of stroke and other inherent risks associated with chiropractic treatment be visible and available in the reception area of every chiropractic facility”. (16)

We further recommend that other practitioners of manipulation therapy, including physiotherapists, should have a warning posted in their offices about the risks of neck manipulation.

Qualified epidemiologists, medical scientists and legal experts should develop a patient information form that it truly reflective of the risks. This should be presented to every patient. This should include up to date scientific information on the risks per individual patient rather than dated, non-scientific claims that significantly underestimate the risk to the individual patient.

CONCERN NUMBER FOUR
WE ARE CONCERNED THAT CURRENT AUTOPSY PROCEDURES FAIL TO DIAGNOSE ALL CASES.

In the course of a routine autopsy, the vertebral arteries in the neck are almost never removed and examined. Cases of death due to neck manipulation have been missed. (17). It is important to know the true incidence.

As there may be a significant time delay between manipulation and stroke, any person dying of stroke within three months of a neck manipulation should have their carotid and/or vertebral arteries examined by a pathologist. This is especially important in those patients under the age of 45 in whom a clear cause for stroke cannot be identified. (14).

Suspicious cases should be reported to the office of the regional Coroner. This will allow a better estimate of the true incidence of stroke and death secondary to cervical manipulation.

CONCERN NUMBER FIVE
PROVINCIAL MINISTRIES OF HEALTH SHOULD ACKOWLEDGE AND ACT UPON THE STRONG CONCERNS AND RECOMMENDATIONS OF THE SCIENTIFIC PEDIATRIC COMMUNITY REGARDING SO-CALLED “PEDIATRIC CHIROPRACTIC”

Chiropractors in Canada perform cervical manipulation in children for the “treatment” of infantile colic, inner ear infections, bedwetting and a myriad of other paediatric illnesses. Chiropractic authorities claim that parents should bring their new-born baby to a chiropractor “as soon as possible after birth” (18.) Such claims and recommendations have no scientific basis and only expose infants and children to unwarranted neck manipulation.

Strong concerns have been expressed by the Chiefs of Paediatrics of our Canadian Hospitals (19) and by the Canadian Paediatric Society regarding chiropractic manipulation on the spines of infants and children (20).

Paralysis and other complications in infants and children following cervical neck manipulation have occurred. (21) Death has also been reported. (23)

We strongly recommend that each provincial Ministry of Health order the immediate banning of all spinal manipulation of infants and children.

CONCERN NUMBER SIX
WE EXPRESS OUR STRONG CONCERN ABOUT THE MANY NON-SCIENTIFIC CLAIMS MADE AS TO THE CONDITIONS THAT PURPORTEDLY MAY BENEFIT FROM NECK MANIPULALTION.

There are endless non-scientific claims being made as to the uses of neck manipulation. The public must be made aware that the very great majority of these claims have little or no evidence to support them.

We call upon the responsible governmental health authorities to conduct a full inquiry into the dubious claims being made. Representatives of all concerned parties should be brought together in such an inquiry. This should include an examination of the information being taught at all schools and courses dealing with manipulation therapy.

Heard you got shut down Bill LOL!!!

There is no scientific evidence to show that chiropractic adjustments can cause stroke… NONE! Here is some literature for your reading pleasure:

‘The Stroke Issue: Paucity of Valid Data, Plethora of Unsubstantiated Conjecture’

‘Haldeman et al. Risk Factors and Precipitating Neck Movements Causing VBA Dissection After Cervical Trauma and Spinal Manipulation. Spine 1999; 24 (8): 785-794′
———————————————————–
‘Rothwell et al. Chiropractic Manipulation and Stroke: Stroke 2001; 32: 1054-1060′

–> This reads like a magazine, not a peer-reviewed journal and the study was not very well designed. At least the author acknowledges their own methodological shortcomings. This study, like all others before it, does not provide any valid information regarding the potential risk from chiropractic adjustment. The study does not contain one dissection! This study appears to blame chiropractic for stenosis and occlusion. The fact is, there is no plausible explanation for how a chiropractic adjustment can result in occlusion or stenosis (reduced blood flow to the brain) for a long enough period to cause stroke. How many of these people had neck pain because of a stroke and then went to a chiropractor for the neck pain???
–> Since no other variables are controlled for in this or any other study you have provided, the study design is useless and NEVER provide ANY scientifically valid information regarding a CAUSAL relationship between manipulation and stroke.
———————————————————–
‘Symons, Herzog et al. JMPT 2002′
–> An adjustment represents LESS force to the vertebral artery than many activities of daily living including normal neck range of motion.
———————————————————–
‘Moira K. Kapral, Susan J. Bondy, Cervical manipulation and risk of stroke CMAJ 2001; 165 (7): 907-8′
–> “The estimated level of risk is smaller than that associated with many commonly used diagnostic tests or prescription drugs.” The author discusses risk but there is NO VALID DATA because the risk is inaccurately estimated. ALL ESTIMATES ARE BASED ON INVALID INFORMATION SO ANY RISK ESTIMATE IS INVALID.
———————————————————–

Bill, what you are doing is known in the legal system as SLANDER!

If that is the case Brandon then why don’t you and your chiro buddies take me to court? What’s wrong, concerned that the truth might somehow get out?

Hmmm… me thinks you said it all Doc!
And the room grew earthly still.

And that folks is the beauty of our court system! It only deals in FACTS!

Elephants will roost in trees before these chiropractors ever take you to Court Dr. Kinsinger! It would be the final nail in their coffin so to speak.

The court room hath no place for make-believe. Make no mistake folks, it is STILL the domain of fact and sound reasoning. There is NO ear for a belief system or non sensical standards. In short, fantasy ideals and concepts have no place before our Judges.

Our legal parameters have enacted very strict trial guidelines for proof and the highest of scientific standards. Fallacy and ones beliefs have no place in this forum. Essentially it would be no contest.

The days of upper neck manipulation and twisting for miracle cures are gone. Medical science and modern medicine have exposed Chiropractic for what it is; namely, a false belief system who’s days have long passed. I will agree that there has perhaps always been some placebo “benefit” to the chiropractic trade, but the serious risks far exceed any “value”. The Canadian Government realized this and turfed funding for the Chiropractors long ago. They deemed chiropractic of no real significant value , hence after much investigation and research they gave it the boot. Had they seen ANY value or purpose it would still be in existence. Especially in these hard economic times when we are striving to find alternative methods to stretching our health care dollars.

Sorry Brandon but Elvis left the building long ago.

Chiropractic manipulation treatment risky says University of Sydney academic.
The vigorous spinal manipulations used by many chiropractors are an unnecessarily dangerous way to treat neck pain, an Australian researcher says.

Dr Andrew Leaver, from the University of Sydney, said the practice should be reviewed after a study showed how a much milder therapy was just as effective at alleviating neck pain.

“Neck manipulation is a highly controversial treatment as there are published studies that demonstrate an increased risk of stroke,” Dr Leaver, an Associate Lecturer in Physiotherapy, said on Wednesday.

“It makes us question why patients, or practitioners, would favour a treatment which possibly carries (the) risk of catastrophic outcome.”

Dr Leaver said vigorous manipulations were commonly used by chiropractors, osteopaths, physiotherapists and other medical practitioners to treat neck pain.

It involved applying a short thrust of pressure to the spine which usually resulted in an audible click.

Dr Leaver said there were cases where this had caused damage to blood vessels in the neck, and patients were thought to have a heightened risk of stroke that continued for several days.

The frequently quoted estimate of serious injury following neck manipulation was one in a million, he said, though this was conservative and it could be as much as one in 15,000.

“Whilst this appears to be a rare occurrence … patients have a right to make an informed choice,” Dr Leaver said.

“We should also consider the severity of the risk and remember that the condition which people are initially seeking treatment for is a non life-threatening and mostly self-limiting condition.”

Dr Leaver’s research took in 180 people who had sought treatment for neck pain, and the results were “almost identical” irrespective of whether they received a vigorous or mild treatment that used only massage on the back of the neck.

The research was carried out in collaboration with the University of Queensland, and the results are published in the journal Archives of Physical Medicine and Rehabilitation.

This is almost getting painful.

Perhaps I should consider opening up a counceling service, specificaly geared to the Chiropractic community.

I’ll let you know when I open the door Bill. Perhaps you could send a few my way?

I suspect business would be quite good.

Sounds like a plan Troy. Maybe you can offer them some career counseling as well.

They would need a little academic upgrading but we have openings in our local Sanitation Department.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xkZQlrQMJ-k&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LdVMjnaY6L4&NR=1

If this does not say it all..NOTHING does!
Hillarious!

Why I Quit Chiropractic
Allen J. Botnick, D.C.
Although I have a chiropractic degree from Life University in Marietta, Georgia, I do not encourage students to enter the profession. It took me a long time to learn the extent to which chiropractic is riddled with problems. Students and prospective students may not realize this because the schools and many practitioners paint an overly optimistic picture of what awaits new chiropractic graduates in the real world.

At the time I attended, Life encouraged its alumni to recruit prospective students from their practices. Successful alumni were given rewards such as a white distinctive blazer with the school’s crest. My own chiropractor was one of these supporters. She told me that chiropractic was based on legitimate scientific principles and that I would receive the best chiropractic education at Life. Admissions materials from the school described it as providing a thorough education in the diagnosis and care of patients so that their health would be improved by removing nerve interference. These assertions were all false.

My Chiropractic School Experience
During my college years, the only negative information I encountered about chiropractic was Ralph Lee Smith’s book At Your Own Risk: The Case Against Chiropractic in the local library. But my chiropractor advised me to disregard it because it was inspired by a “witch hunt” against chiropractic by the American Medical Association. She also said that a recent verdict in an antitrust suit against the AMA had proved this was true. Years later, I learned that this was completely untrue and that the judge had actually remarked that the AMA had had legitimate grounds to attack improper chiropractic practices.

Career almanacs and handbooks favorably describe chiropractic as a promising career and do not mention any negative information. Because I encountered almost no negative information and trusted the fact that the college was accredited, I did not think to question the validity of chiropractic theory. Later I learned that most of the information in these career guides originates from chiropractic organizations themselves and portrays the profession in an unrealistically positive light.

Students at Life University (and many other chiropractic schools and postgraduate programs) get an intense indoctrination into the chiropractic belief system. They are exposed to contradictory chiropractic systems and are encouraged to find one that they can support even if they disbelieve the others. My instructors taught that all the techniques were effective and encouraged us to use whatever method we liked, based on personal preference and patient responses measured with chiropractic assessments. Whether or not methods were evidence-based was irrelevant.

Accreditation standards say that one objective of chiropractic education is to acquire the ability to critically evaluate research. However, I have observed just the opposite. For example, after taking several postgraduate seminars, I realized that several commonly used chiropractic analysis procedures had been proven unreliable. But when I tried to share this information with my classmates, they immediately discounted all negative research as fraudulent. Instructors at the college actually taught them how to do this in chiropractic philosophy indoctrination classes. Before long, my well-intentioned discussions resulted in excommunication as a heretic by many of my classmates.

My program at Life program seemed like that of any other school and I had no major problems until about halfway into the curriculum. During the eighth quarter of the 14-quarter system, the program became much more adversarial as we entered the outpatient clinic. This was our internship, where we were supposed to gain our clinical experience by treating the public. In earlier quarters, the school had taken extra effort to make us feel welcome. We were treated to free lunches, guided tours of the campus by friendly enthusiastic students, and free lodging when touring the campus. The clinic atmosphere was different. The instructors made it very clear that unless a long list of rules was followed, we would face suspension from the clinic and possible failure of that quarter’s clinical internship. Infractions were outlined in a student handbook. Violations would result in either a warning or a suspension—known as a “pink slip.” This system was unbelievably harsh. Students could find themselves suspended from clinic for such minor mistakes as forgetting to empty a cup of urine, not filling out a form completely, missing an appointment because of a miscommunication with a patient about the appointment date, or even wearing casual slacks rather than dress slacks.

In addition to this harsh system of rules, students were kept constantly busy by the demands of the clinic, academic classes, and national boards. My typical day would be to arise at 6 am, arrive early in the clinic in order to secure a place on a walk-in list for new patients. After doing this I would sit on a stool at one of four telephone stations where I and up to three other students would take turns answering the clinic’s one telephone with the hope of finding new patients to treat.

Students who were not recruiting enough patients to pass the course became desperate. A large wooden sign hung in the hallway with carved letters that read “Whatever It Takes.” Instructors advised us to use direct solicitation. They encouraged us to visit drugstores and to target people in pain. This approach was often difficult, because many local residents had been solicited so often that Life students were regarded as desperate and fanatical. Successful students targeted faculty and families with young children who could receive care at discounted rates. Many students paid their patients’ clinic fees out of desperation.

In retrospect, this system of strict rules and harsh punishments resembles descriptions of how cults operate. Since students were kept busy, they had little time to question the teachings of the group; and the Draconian punishments encouraged conformity. Up to 30% of students failed this class and had to pay to retake it.

Like many other students, I was unable to find enough patients to pass that first clinic and was very frustrated. This problem, combined with the school president’s prohibition against many common treatment methods that I wanted to learn, led me to consider transferring to the Los Angeles College of Chiropractic. I found, however, that despite having excellent grades, I would lose an entire year of school if I did that. Wishing to keep expenses to a minimum, I decided to finish the program.

As I reached my final terms, I wondered why, despite being in the upper part of my class, I found the diagnosis sections of the National Boards difficult. Ten months after graduation I was shocked when—despite graduating Magna Cum Laude and spending eight months studying—I failed Part IV of final national board exams, a requirement for practice in most states. After completing a review course, I retook and passed the test and began seeking employment, expecting to work with chiropractors skilled in rehabilitation and gain valuable clinical experience to compensate for the limited training I had received in school. Unfortunately, this proved incorrect, because the chiropractors who hired me misrepresented themselves.

My Work Experience
The first chiropractor I worked for —also a Life graduate—used me and other new graduates as a front to bilk insurance companies out of millions of dollars. He never told me that the guidelines he had us follow for treating auto accident patients were illegal. It must have been a lucrative scam for him, because the state board investigators told me that he caused the licenses of two associates to be revoked for fraudulent billing. Luckily, I stayed in close contact with the board and his license ended up being revoked, not mine.

I subsequently worked for two other chiropractors. One was a Scientologist who tried to get me to join Scientology in Los Angeles. This man told patients that chiropractic adjustments could cure multiple sclerosis, acne, and heart disease. The board revoked his license after learning that he had tried to conceal a license revocation in another state. The other chiropractor, who ran a clinic for patients with chronic back pain, ordered me to overutilize expensive nerve-conduction tests to boost the clinic income. When I balked at ordering unnecessary tests, I was fired. The Kentucky chiropractic licensing board was not interested in prosecuting him.

I once believed that I could teach myself differential diagnosis and follow scientific treatment guidelines. Later I learned that this was not possible without exposure to expert faculty and actual patients. Refusing to be a quack or a thief, I had serious doubts about whether to remain a chiropractor. In 2003, I gave it one more try by accepting a position with a graduate of National University of Health Sciences (one of the better chiropractic schools) who was certified in “chiropractic sports medicine.” But I soon learned that:

He routinely used scare tactics, such as warnings about “subluxations” and “nerve interference,” to promote lifetime maintenance care, even for small children.
Everything he said to patients was carefully scripted to induce compliance.
He falsely coded patient records so he could be paid for treatment that insurance companies considered unnecessary.
His x-ray films were of poor quality.
His office manager told me that the chiropractor had failed to identify the cause of her mother’s back pain, which turned out to be a cancer that caused her death. I suspect that better-quality x-rays might have revealed that the pain had been caused by metastatic tumor. So, despite this chiropractor’s training at a more academically inclined school, he performed no better than the rest. Disgusted with his unethical conduct, my own lack of training in differential diagnosis, and the anti-science orientation of the field, I resigned and quit the profession for good.

Further Observations and Beliefs
While reflecting on my experiences, I remembered the glowing claims from the admissions materials that Life had initially sent me and decided to revisit them. I now believe that the school was training unknowing students to engage in practices that were unethical and dangerous. Life University has been teaching that chiropractors should not perform differential diagnosis (listing possible medical conditions and doing what is necessary to determine whether they are present)—a policy that places patients at considerable risk. Concerned about this problem, I encouraged students to seek corrective action. One article I posted on Chirobase encouraged graduates to challenge these problems with a class-action lawsuit. This caused quite a commotion at the college and encouraged faculty and students to speak out against policies of Sid E. Williams, D.C., the school’s president. Life’s heavy-handed response triggered complaints to the school’s accreditor, the Council on Chiropractic Education (CCE), which performed a site visit and revoked Life’s accreditation status. Unfortunately, in 2002, Life claimed unfair treatment and sued the accreditor for $100 million dollars. The suit ended in a confidential settlement where Life’s accreditation was restored and the accreditation agency claimed that all of the problems had been corrected for later classes.

At the time of Life’s 2002 accreditation troubles, I submitted my own complaints which illustrated how the same problems existed as early as 1992 when I began classes. I estimated that 8,000 Life graduates were inadequately trained in diagnosis, posing a serious threat to their patients because they might not refer patients to medical practitioners in a timely manner. As students, these chiropractors were also taught to take unnecessary x-rays of pain-free areas (to find “subluxations”) and to advise patients to discontinue prescription medications.

The handling of my complaints provides a lesson in how ineffective the current regulatory system is. My initial complaint to Life went unaddressed. A follow-up complaint to the CCE regarding Life’s lack of action was stonewalled for months. My subsequent complaint to the U.S. Department of Education (DOE) regarding CCE’s excessive stonewalling, which violated DOE’s guidelines, forced CCE to verify that my complaints against Life were valid and produced a statement that they had corrected the problems in the present. Alarmed that past graduates were not warned that they would be held personally liable for malpractice, I asked DOE to have CCE retroactively strip the accreditation of the program for the affected students and offer some kind of remediation. DOE responded that they do not require accreditation agencies to do such things. The end result is that the CCE and the DOE have covered up the fact that thousands of Life graduates have entered practice without even a rudimentary knowledge of how to diagnose properly.

The Bottom Line
Having personally observed the activities of scores of chiropractors and their organizations, I am convinced that:

Chiropractic’s legitimate scope of practice is too limited and its adherence to pseudoscience is too entrenched to promote optimal physical medicine
Many chiropractic institutions encourage (or fail to discourage) unethical practices.
Despite years of education, most chiropractors lack the knowledge and ability to provide quality care and many have enormous student loan debts. (Chiropractic graduates have the highest student loan default rate among the health professions, with Life’s graduates having the highest number of defaulters and the highest total amount.)

For these reasons—and more—students who are interested in manual medicine would be much wiser to pursue physiatry, osteopathy, or physical therapy as as career.

Sometimes we need to hear things right from the source in order to understand just how warped certain beliefs are.

Thank goodness for Common Sense and Scientific Standards. And of course the wilingness for those brave souls who have the courage and fortitude to speak out.

Thanks to everyone for spreading the word about these needless practices. Welcome to the 21st Century.

Just say NO to upper neck manipulations.

Good point Troy. Allen is not the only former chiropractor to walk away in disbelief, but he is clearly one of the brave ones for he is unafraid to speak out and has done to willingly for years. For many, even when they realize what a bad situation they have found themselves in they have accumulated so much debt that it is very difficult for them to walk. Because the only way to make any money in chiro is to have as high a volume practice as possible (any thoughts here Tim) they attend the practice building seminars etc.

Early on in my journey of educating myself about the chiro industry I assumed that most chiros were pure con men. I learned over the years that for many this is not the case at all. Because of the cult-like atmosphere so prevalent at most of the chiro schools and the reality that the average chiro student is not particularly bright, many of these guys actually believe that what they are doing has merit. They actually believe that these illusive subluxations are the cause of all human ills and that they possess in their hands the only cure. Because they are isolated away from mainstream academic institutions they can easily be convinced that eveything we in conventional medicine know regarding human biology is actually false and instead the works of the Palmers contain the true secrets to health and “wellness”. A great example of this is the strong anti-immunization sentiment in the chiro industry. Ask any public health official what is the single most important public health measure in history and they will tell you that it is our system of childhood vaccinations. Yet a visit to most chiro’s by a young anxious mother will result in a lecture about the evils and dangers of vaccination and a contract for lifetime chiro tx for the whole family sold as a “natural” alternative to vaccination.

Hi Doc! Thanks!
I suspect you are right on all counts.

Even the Chiropractor I used to see would promote staying away from vaccinations. SCARY! It does indeed seem to be something that the majority of them prescribe to.

The chiropractors have so many ridiculous theories and weird ideas that it’s frightening. It would be hilarious were it not so sad.

By the way Doctor Kinsinger, how many years have you been researching this subject? And do you restrict exposing the fallacies and dangers of Chiropractic Upper NEck Manipulation to seminars to Universities and hospitals?

Many thanks for all your posts!

Great to hear from you Troy. In answer to your question, I have been working on this “project” since 1989 and still learning more every day. And I will gladly bring my presentation to any group that is interested in hearing the truth about chiropractic. Be well.

As a Nation, Canada has steered clear and all but banished chiropractic funding altogether. The last Province to abolish any subsidy funding for this trade was Alberta.

My understanding is that the only Province remaining in the entire Country that still provides a little Chiro subsidy is Manitoba. I did hear that they were in Parliamentary discussions and the word is out that Manitoba officials will also soon follow suit, making Canada a COMPLETE NO – ZONE for chiropractic funded health care. Gonzo monzo!

My understanding was that the powers that be explored the legitimacy of any benefit and frankly found none of value. Added to this was the ever growing number of chiropractic victims and the writing was on the wall my friends.

My question is WHY did it take these scientists and Doctors so long to turf chiropractic? Surely something could have been done sooner. It’s a real shame that it takes so long to cut through all the red tape and bull before proper safety measures were implemented.

I wholly support Kaiser in their decision to cancel upper neck manipulations from their roster. I support t sites like this where FACT will always triumph over fantasy and where truth rules.

Be well folks and take good care! And remember; just say NO to upper neck cranking!

Thanks for sharing this information about chiropractic. Great information and the more we share the better. People need to know about this stuff!

Dr. Michael Horowitz
Vancouver Chiropractor

No problem! Appreciate your praise! ( Just hope you are not the Michael Horowitz DC who was convicted of Insurance Fraud and fined $750,000.00 )

That said most Chiropractors that understand the dangers of upper neck manipulation have abandoned their false belief system. We will most certainly continue to press onward and upward.So again, thanks for the endorsement.

Educating the ones ( we call them Dinosaurs) who cling to the Vertebral Subluxation theory, are the fellows we focus on these days.LOL…nerve interference my foot! YEs, sadly some of the chiropractors out there still preach this ridiculous nonsense! LOL

Welcome to the 21Century and thanks again for your support Mike.

Remember folks: With the growing numbers of chiropractors agreeing with what we are saying regarding the true dangers and risks of upper neck twisting, it’s time to write and phone your respective Government Health officials. The time is NOW for the government officials to stand up and put these changes into law.Protecting the public from scams like chiropractic should be a priority. It sure was for the Canadian Government.

be a good neighbour and whenever you hear of someone attending a chiropractor for “treatment” find out what they are being told!Your caring could very well save a life.

Be well friends!

Hi Doctor Kinsinger,
Wow! You have been researching Chiropractic scams since 1989! Over twenty years! This would explain how your posts always seem to hit the exact mark! You have almost single handedly exposed this cult like organization for what it is. In my opinion a complete joke! Just wish it wasn’t injuring so many innocent young men and women. So sad really.

I LOVE reading your cutting comments that strike at the heart of the matter. You never seem to let these characters get the upper hand or lead you down any rabbit trails. Now I understand why you speak with such authority on this subject matter.

If you ever make it up to Canada please drop a line. I would love to invite a crowd and would be honoured to listen to one of your lectures live!!!

CLARIFICATION;
Pleads guilty to fraud
Michael Horowitz, a chiropractor whose Wall St. Chiropractic was located at 80 Wall St., pleaded guilty in Manhattan Federal Court on Fri., Aug. 21 to defrauding various insurance companies of more than $750,000 by billing for medical services that were not performed.

Horowitz had joined another chiropractor, Christopher Green, in February 2002 at the Wall St. location and from 2003 to Dec. 2006 they billed insurance companies including Empire Blue Cross Blue Shield, AETNA and CIGNA for providing treatments that were in fact not provided. Green pleaded guilty previously to the charges, according to the office of Preet Bharara, U.S. Attorney in Manhattan.

Horowitz is subject to a maximum prison sentence of 20 years, a fine of twice the amount he realized from the offense and forfeiture of all proceeds from the crime. He is to be sentenced Dec. 3.

Guess that would make the fine 1.5 Million Dollars!

Watched Nancy Grace tonight. The main story was about some Chiropractor who was just arrested. She tried to hire a hit man to knock off her husband. The would be hit man connected with the USA’s finest and got wired for sound. The rest as they say is history.

She apparently paid the would be killer $125.00 for a handgun and promised him a nice shiny Harley when the deed was done.

Hmm…wouldn’t it have just been simpler and less suspect if she were to have given her hubby a quick neck manipulation?

Have a great day!

Can any tell me what this decision by Kaiser to drop Chiropractic, will cost the bone twisters in actual cold hard cash?

Also: Can anyone confirm what actions, if any, are being taken by Chiropractor students and their respective parents, to file lawsuits against the Colleges that have been promoting this as a legit business?

Last question: Is it possible for the Chiropractors to recover from all the negative exposer over the last five years?

i do not personally think it’s possible for the Chiropractors to recover. There’s just too much in the way of overwhelming evidence against them.

Their silly ways have been exposed and I have yet to see anything of substance posted in support of upper neck manipulations.

There are a number of lawsuits bottle necking and we can all expect a significant amount of new and relevant information forth coming.

Be sure and watch your local papers for developing articles. Once these cases hit the courts it’s an open book.

Be well everyone and have a great weekend!

Pseudoscience Definition; Chiropractic “Treatments”.

Kind of sums it up.

Chiropractic is safe, gentle and effective. I have MD’s that refer to me and MD’s as patients. I also see a MD and refer patients to MD’s, when chiropractic care is not appropriate.

Effective for what? If you are talking about the treatment of low back pain you may be confusing chiropractic with spinal manipulative therapy. Or are you talking about the treatment of “subluxations”?

News flash : Kaiser reverses cervical adjustment restrictions. Couldn’t resist!!!!! Sorry to bust your bubble

Hey Tim, glad to know you are still out there listening. But I thought you were too busy (200 patients/day) to mess with this blog. Speaking of news flash, did you see the recent case report in the journal Clinical Neuroradiology about the 33 year old who suffered vertebral artery dissection and massive stroke following a chiro neck twisting? I know this type of story is nothing new but the fascinating thing about this particular incident is that this poor woman had undergone cervical MRI which demonstrated perfectly normal vasculature immediately prior to her “treatment”. The walls are closing in on you guys. Better do all you can while you can.

After doing a little Google search on Chiropractic I came across this very interesting blog. I was intrigued enough after the first couple of entries that I kept reading…and reading…and reading, to the very last entry. And when I say intrigued, it was not in a “wow this is thought provoking debate” kind of way, but more like getting sucked into a soap opera hoping for some type of redeeming quality in the end that never delivers kind of way. And like a soap opera there are a few (very few) good points in an otherwise waste of good space. And although there are many things I would like to comment on, I understand that doing so would just draw me into that thing which I am commenting about.

However, I can’t help but share a few observations. Much like a political debate, as soon as someone begins with the personal attacks and chases a bunch of rabbits that has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand, then that person immediately looses credibility. And to even bring into the discussions a person’s spelling (in an informal blog entry no less) and equating it with their intelligence has nothing to do with the topic but everything to do with the fact the person bringing it up has run out of anything relevant to bring to the table. And not just spelling, any type of personal attacks only weakens ones argument, not the other way around…and this goes for BOTH sides of the discussion.

On a second note, to anyone that has lost someone, is caring for someone, or an individual that has suffered a stroke my heart goes out to you all. This is something that we all will agree is tragic and it is understandable that there is anger. Anytime there is tragedy those involved are not only angry and upset but they are looking for someone to blame. And again, this is understandable. One needs only look at the Autism debate to see a prime example of this. At times the blame is justified and others it is not. Where does the blame lie in these cases, I am not sure, but what I do know is that neither side has shown to me, an outsider looking in, substantial proof of either. What I do see is a lot of speculation, circumstantial evidence, assumptions, generalizations and a bunch of nonsensical argumentative banter.

Proof? Where is it? On one hand we have Kaiser making a decision about ‘neck manipulations’ and ‘Troy’ one-upping ‘Tim’ saying it will “not be reversed” and “you can put that in the bank” commenting on how Kaiser, unlike ‘Tim’ “has done the research and determined that Chiropractic has no health benefit or significance”. Then “oops” ‘Tim’ was able to one-up ‘Troy’ after Kaiser reverses their decision. What does this mean? What does it say about Chiropractic? What does it say about Troy and Tim’s points of view?

Unfortunately I have gone on way longer than I had wanted. To sum it up I would just pose this question, “What is trying to be accomplished with this blog?” Is it to bash Chiropractic or bash Allopathic/Osteopathic medicine? Is it to stop cervical manipulation or ALL Chiropractic manipulation (is it manipulation or an adjustment…what is the difference)? Is it all cervical manipulations/adjustments or the one’s described as “twisting” that are so bad? Or……is this just a bunch of arguing for arguments sake?

Let me see if I can help Brad. First of all most of us who are considered as “chiropractic critics” have multiple issues with the chiropractic industry.

Of primary concern is the sad reality that a certain percentage of patients who undergo chiropractic upper neck manipulation will suffer cervical arterial dissection and stroke. Many of these strokes are fairly “minor” but others are profound and leave the patient either dead or with permanent severe neurologic disability. There are dozens of high quality articles in the peer reviewed medical literature that point to a clear cause and effect relationship between chiro neck manipulation and stroke. Also, there have been literally hundreds of case reports in the medical literature of these types of strokes following chiropractic treatment dating back to the original case report in JAMA in 1934. Despite this reality, the chiropractic industry has done everything possible to avoid taking any responsibility for these tragedies. In the last decade they had just begun to start to acknowledge the issue but then along came the infamous “Cassidy study” and now they completey deny any association between neck twisting and stroke. The study in question is seriously flawed and concludes that neck manipulation is no more likely to cause stroke than a visit to the family doctor. Even if the conclusion of this study were accurate, and it is not, it is not at all appropriate to ignore decades of evidence in order to put all your faith in a single study.

In conventional medicine, we put safety as our first priority. I could point to dozens of very beneficial medications and treatment protocols which have been abandoned in recent years because there were questions of safety, in many cases the evidence was very flimsy but when it comes to safety we just dont take any chances. One of the more recent and highly publicized cases was that of the drug Vioxx. The chiropractic industry on the other hand has spent countless hours and untold dollars trying to convince the public that their practice is “safe” in the face of glaring evidence that it is anything but safe. There is more, stick with me Brad.

Here is where it really gets disturbing. Chiropractic neck manipulation has never been shown to be of much value in the treatment of neck pain but that point could certainly be argued and I am not willing to say that it is completely “useless” for treatment of neck pain. There are some patients who have undergone a reasonable trial of more conservative treatment such as mobilization who may benefit from the more aggressive and potentially dangerous manipulation. The really scary part is that most chiropractors use neck manipulation not to treat neck pain but rather as a literal “panacea”. They will twist as many necks as possible regardless of the patients presenting complaint or even in the absence of any complaint at all. Yes Brad, you heard me right, chiros twist necks in an effort to treat virtually all human ailments and even in an effort to “preserve health” in patients who have no complaints at all. I suspect it wont surprise you to hear me say that twisting someones neck in an effort to treat childhood asthma, or low back pain, or to offer immunization against swine flu has exactly ZERO chance of doing any good.

So to summarize we have a “treatment” of very questionable value and which is clearly linked to a devastating complication and an entire sector of the “health care industry” which is doing their best to ignore or bury the evidence. So I guess I would say that the purpose of this site is to raise awareness of the very real dangers associated with chiropractic treatment particularly neck manipulation.

As to your question of what is the difference between manipulation and adjustment, I will try to give you a shorter answer. Manipulative therapy is a legitimate form of therapy which can aid in the treatment of musculoskeletal ailments. Many practitioners utilize this type of therapy including, physical therapists, osteopathic physicians, chiropractors, and to a lesser degree medical doctors. There are dozens if not hundreds of “techniques” of manipulation. Chiropractors claim that their techniques are more “specific and precise” than the more “crude” techniques utilized by the other practitioners. It is my opinion that this is totally false and that the term “adjustment” is nothing more than a marketing term intended to allow the chiropractors to appear to be offering something more advanced and sophisticated that that offered by the other practitioners of manipulative therapy.

Brad, next time we talk I will enlighten you to the issues surrounding the very prominent anti-vaccination philosphy in the chiropractic world.

Hope this helps.

Brad,
You are right. This blog is really useless. I use it as a means of entertainment. kinsinger and his tiny little following are just a part of a bigger push from the MD and pharm groups who have been doing this for over 100 years. The problem is everything he spouts is 100% false. Ask Kinsinger to show you one study that proves mercury is safe when injected into the bloodstream of a newborn. On second thought,don’t. I wouldn’t visit this blog again. It’s toxic. Much like his attitude and true agenda.

Tim, you have indicated previously your plans to cease participation on this blog yet you keep coming back for more. We are happy to have you join us in discussion but it would be nice if you would make up your mind. Just when we think we are without your wisdom and insight you pop back in. By the way, I was able to give my presentation at IBMC a few weeks ago after an unfortunate delay and I included you as part of the presentation. Those in attendance seemed to be surprised to learn that a local chiropractor was “saving lives” in neonatal intensive care units around the OKC area. I elected not to give them your name but if you would like me to include it in future presentations just let me know.

Lady says to pharmacist: “Why does my prescription medication have 40 side effects?”
Pharmacist replies: “Cause that’s all we’ve documented so far.” Prescription drugs, surgery, pain killers, etc, just numb your pain and don’t do anything to fix the problem, yet they are responsible for 106,000 deaths per year.

Records form insurance and court cases have constantly shown that
chiropractic is the safest portal of entry health care available to the
public today. Although no healthcare procedures are 100% safe, chiropractic
stands on its record of safety and effectiveness unmatched in
healthcare.

Hello Seattle. Can you comment on the growing number of case reports of healthy young women who have suffered life altering (or life ending) strokes following chiro neck manipulation?

Hi Dr. Kinsinger,
Always wonderful to read your insights and experience on this serious subject.

Your ability to address the heart of the matter and get right to the bones never fails to amaze me.

There is a sifting taking place and the bad seeds are falling by the roadside. Every time a chiropractor tries to refute or offer up some weak unscientific rebutle …..shazam!… Dr. kinsinger hits another home run!

Thank you for donating so much of your valuable time and enlightening the public on the dangers of neck twisting. I was glad to hear that the Theapist do not practice this form of “treatment”.

Take good care!
Troy

Hi Gang,
Great reading. Looks like we managed to get the Chiropractors attention once again…lol

The recent responses from the bone twisters are …yawn….so typical. I guess it’s all they have left.

Anyway, there is a lot happening these days around the world on this hot topic. Not only are the Chiropractors feeling the heat in the Courtrooms of America but the general public are demanding accountability on all levels.

The good thing here of course is that all this limelight is helping to save countless lives from certain injury and even albeit rare…death.

If one life and even one family is saved the heartache and pain that ours has had to endure all these years it will be worth it. Yes the chiropractors like to attack and call names and such but it’s all worth it if we can impart positive change within our various health care systems.

So… eat the meat and throw away the bones as they say. Rejoice that this has been a very good year.

Be safe everyone and take the time to partake in good quality family time this Christmas. And remember LIFE IS SHORT! Never take your health for granted. Stay away from neck manipulations and keep spreading the word. The life you save may be your own.

Love, Peace, Joy

So I have a question for the chiro proponents out there. It will be interesting to see if any one of you will step up to the plate and answer it. Allow me to set it up.
Those of us on the “other side” of the issue have a number of complaints but I think that we can all agree that our primary concern is the sad reality that a certain percentage of unsuspecting patients who undergo neck manipulation will suffer a stroke, often with devastating results including potential death. And we are not talking about elderly folks with atherosclerotic peripheral vascular disease who suffer the most common kind of stroke, those in which plaque which has built up in the carotid arteries breaks off and blocks blood flow to the brain. We are instead talking about young healthy people, primarily women, who have no evidence whatsoever of arterial plaque buildup. These stroke victims are found on radiographic study to have suffered arterial dissections, more or less “tears” in the arteries leading to the brain. The chiro industry argues that our concerns over chiro caused strokes are not warranted or at best that we exaggerate the situation. Their entire defense rests currently with a single report published a couple of years ago known as the “Cassidy study”. We could argue for hours about the value, or lack thereof, of the study in question but I believe that any honest person will agree that the primary talking point being pushed is as follows. The proponents of chiro neck twisting claim that the “Cassidy study” demonstrates that strokes which occur immediately following a chiro visit are accompanied by an equal number of strokes which occur immediately following a visit to a primary care physician, otherwise known as a “real doctor”. So they don’t actually deny that chiro strokes occur, rather they claim that just as many strokes occur following a trip to the family doc. So far so good?
Now I must pause here and point out that of the many complaints that we have regarding the validity of the “Cassidy study” one of the most obvious concerns is that the authors did not examine any actual patients or medical charts. Rather, they came to their conclusions by analyzing billing data. Not quite the type of information that we usually rely on to come to medical conclusions. This in and of itself does not allow us to say that the study is useless, but it does need to be considered when evaluating the conclusions of the study.
So now we are getting closer to the question, stick with me. Those of us who are speaking out in opposition to neck twisting can quickly provide citations for a handful or more of case reports in peer reviewed medical literature recounting the tales of young healthy individuals who suffered strokes within hours or days of a visit to a chiropractor which involved a neck manipulation. In each of these case reports the radiographic evidence is conclusive of arterial dissection as the cause of the stroke. For those of you without a medical background, a case report is a published “story” which usually recounts the events of a single patient including their medical history as well as the events leading up to an “event”, the evaluation and treatment for their “condition”, and the ultimate outcome followed by commentary regarding the case. Case reports are generally only published if they are considered “unusual” or have some particular “teaching value”. Case reports are only published if the submitted data is verified and authentic.
Again, we will gladly point you to easily accessible medical case reports of young healthy people who suffered arterial dissection and stroke immediately following a chiropractic neck manipulation. Deny this at your own peril.
So here is the question for those of you who ignore our concerns about the dangers of neck manipulations and who routinely tout the highly acclaimed “Cassidy study”. Can you point to a single case report detailing a documented case of an arterial dissection and stroke which followed a visit to an allopathic or osteopathic physician? Cassidy says medical doctors cause these strokes as often as chiros do, or so his disciples claim. So show us just one case, just one. Can you do it? I patiently await your response.

I’m not about to get into this debate but I do have a question. I saw several post about kaiser booting out chiropractors, I’m confused, I’m assuming this is kaiser per. The insurance company well the confusing part is that I am a kaiser patient and they still provide me with chiropractic coverage. My chiropractor did say that they considered not paying for neck work but I called them (KP) and they said that was just one office and that they where not permitted to make change and it’s been fixed. So was that just some anti chiropractic comment or does someone have some inside info? Also my chiropractor does not “twist” my neck and he said they do not really teach that anymore at most schools so can these none twisting moves cause stroke? Also what kind of doctor is the one that writes most of the stuff on here? Is he a neurologist or something? By the way interesting stuff here, real funny too. Why is the Troy guy mean to people like that I mean I can understand he is against chiropractors but why attack the people can’t he just talk about what they do? I’m sure the chiropractors at least think they are helping. Also someone getting arrested for trying kill her husband is that important to what is being talked about here? Cause if it is then I read a story about a md that got arrested for rape.

Sorry English is not my first language so Troy please don’t make fun

Dr. Kinsinger,
I was wondering if, to the best of your knowledge, there was any evidence based research on the effectiveness of spinal manipulation (at any spinal level) that has been conducted by chiropractors? I am fully aware that there is a body of research out there supporting spinal manipulation (albeit primarily for LBP, and only in individuals who fit a certain criteria), I was just curious if any research has come from the chiropractic community.

Good question Chris. And yes you are correct, there is good evidence in legitimate peer reviewed journals that spinal manipulative therapy (SMT) can provide clear benefit of low back pain if a certain selection criteria are utilized. This is known as the “clinical prediction rule” and all the work in this area has been done exclusively by physical therapists, not chiropractors. So certainly chiros could use this for the benefit of their patients but this seems unlikely as they continue to focus on the treatment of an imaginary condition, vertebral subluxations, as opposed to the legitimate treatment of musculoskeltal ailments.

For Tony. Yes KP did recently exclude chiro neck twisting in a certain region of the USA but later reinstated it after a massive PR and grassroots campaign by the chiro industry. And as for the chiros not teaching neck twisting, nothing could be further from the truth. My guess is your chiro uses a gimic called an “activator”, a spring loaded device that does not require the chiro to twist your neck and therefore is not likely to cause a stroke but neither is it going to provide you any benefit. Regarding my area of expertise, I am an obstetric anesthesiologist which means I perform invasive procedures on the spines of women in labor to relieve their pain. I feel comfortable saying that I am an expert when it comes to the human spinal column.

Dr. Kinsinger,
I appreciate your response, and I am fairly familiar with the clinical prediction rule for the success of SMT for individuals with LBP (or at least the one developed by Timothy Flynn and colleagues). My main area of curiosity is whether or not the chiropractic community has produced any of their own research, any at all, or do they just sort of ride the coat tails of research that others conduct. I would be very interested in reading some of these studies if any have been published in peer reviewed journals. It seems as though the chiropractic community would be aggressively trying to validate their methods of practice through RCT’s doesn’t it? Especially to show some benefit for all of the cervical spine manipulations that keep proving to be hazardous. That is how the medical community justifies the continuation of risky procedures right? By proving that there is a tremendous benefit that outweighs the risk and that the procedure in question is the most viable solution? If there are any chiropractic proponents monitoring this blog that may have some research articles in mind, I’d like to hear from them as well. I’m not just trying to fan the flames here, I’d sincerely like to read some of the research conducted by the chiropractic community.
One other thing I was wondering, the chiropractors seem to constantly be struggling when asked to define this subluxation that they are always treating. Joint subluxations do occur in the body and are treated by medical professionals. Why don’t the chiropractors just use the same definition of joint subluxations and say that it is occurring in the zygapophyseal joints in the spine and that is what they’re treating? Is it because that type of subluxation can be ruled out radiologically and then they wouldn’t be able to treat as many people?

Chris you sound like a very knowledgeable guy, are you a physical therapist? I will try to do a better job of answering your question. Most of the legitimate research related to the benefits of SMT in the treatment of musculoskeletal ailments has historically been done by physical therapists. Chiropractors have always pointed to this research but have contributed very little to it and when it comes to the clinical prediction rule they have not had any contributions at all. You seem surprised that they are not busy trying to provide good evidence in the form of RCT’s particularly in the area of neck manipulation. Chris the problem is that these guys are really not all that interested in scientific evidence; instead they rely on patient testimonial and other non-scientific “evidence” to justify manipulating everyone who will sit still for a few seconds. Keep in mind that these guys are not scholars. Their education is a complete joke when it is compared to other health care professionals like physicians and physical therapists.

Your comments regarding risk/benefit ratio are right on target. Most medical procedures are inherently dangerous and if looked at only in terms of the potential risk could easily be discarded however when we weigh the potential benefits we are willing to accept a known risk in certain situations. Chiropractic has very little potential benefit so in most cases the risk of stroke or death cannot be justified.

Regarding your question about subluxations you are again on the correct trail. Subluxations, partial joint dislocations, are well described conditions that can be easily documented. Chiropractic “subluxations” on the other hand are an entirely fictional entity and that is actually by design. Since there is no real criteria to determine when a chiropractic subluxation occurs, as far as mainstream chiro is concerned everyone has multiple subluxations at all times. The bottom line is that since these subluxations are ubiquitous, the practitioners have free reign to manipulate anybody and everybody who walks in their office as often as possible.

Chiropractic is a well orchestrated scam Chris. I know that this seems unlikely since it is a licensed “profession” in all fifty states and receives funding from the federal government. Many well educated and intelligent persons are strong advocates of chiropractic. The legitimacy that the chiro industry enjoys was “earned” entirely thru the political process. They do a great job of marketing and PR. They use smoke and mirrors to convince unknowing patients that they are working their magic in “aligning” their otherwise crooked spines and at the end of the day they are selling a very expensive and potentially dangerous placebo. Hope this helps, let me know if you have any further questions.

Also, I have met Tim Flynn personally and he is an outstanding physical therapist and researcher as are John Childs, Dave Johnson, and other dedicated practitioners who are working to advance the legitimate science of spinal manipulative therapy. Remember, SMT should not be confused with chiropractic.

Dr. Kinsinger,
Thank you for your help with clarifying some of my questions. This is an area that I am very interested in for the following reason. Although I am not a physical therapist, I am a DPT candidate at a college in Washington state. For those who may be following this blog and not understand the implication of being a PT student in WA, we are currently one of the only two remaining states where physical therapists are not legally allowed to perform SMT (I think that the only other state may be Alabama). We still have to take all of the classes that teach us the criteria for which patients to use SMT on, what all of the red flags are, and the proper techniques to use. I think the most important facts to take under consideration are that a) physical therapists in WA aren’t lobbying to be able to use SMT on the cervical spine, and b) we spend a considerable amount of time learning who NOT to perform SMT on. It is a very troubling concept to know that I am going through school to learn how to provide the best possible care for my patients, only to graduate and be told that for some patients I may not be allowed to do so. Needless to say, when the APTA lobbies the law makers in Washington to change the laws regarding physical therapists and SMT, the chiropractors are always the main opposing force. As it so happens, I attended a college for my undergraduate studies that had a very strong emphasis on research so I graduated with a fairly thorough understanding of the importance of research to any scientific discipline. Perhaps this is why I have such a hard time accepting the fact that the primary opposing force to physical therapists on this issue is the chiropractic community, and nobody can point to any legitimate research they have done to even validate their own profession let alone oppose the progress of another profession.
So Dr. Kinsinger, where do I go from here? I am very interested in, and fairly passionate about, this issue that seems to be a sticking point in my home state. Is there anything within reason that you can think of that I can do to make a difference here? I understand that you are not a politician or anything, but you seem to have a lot of time invested in the general topic of chiropractors and their legal wrangling.

Chris,the concerns you voice are very legitimate. I think it would make more sense for you and I to speak one on one. I believe you could locate my contact info fairly easily, if nothing else you could ask someone at APTA to put us in touch. I would be glad to help you with this issue.

BIG NEWS: On The Immunization Front!!!!!!
It’s all over the National News folks!
The “fellow” responsible for saying that certain immunization shots cause Autism in children has been found out to be a complete fraudster. His so called “scientific” reporting and findings were falsified. He is in SERIOUS trouble gang!

Once again we see that immunizing children is the smart thing to do! Just wish Chiros would stop with the silly talk.

Anyway…this guy should be thrown in jail for life. I’ll toss the key! He has cost people their children’s lives.

Anyway, that’s what I like about Science and Modern Medicine. Given enough time, quacks get found out. Just like with upper neck twisting, I always knew folks would make the right choice and ban this stupid practice of neck cranking from their maintenance routines.

So KUDOS are in order, for all the men and women of our Science & Medical community, for exposing the importance of having your children immunized.

Thanks for pointing this out Troy. Chiropractors have no medical training whatsoever and therefore have no business even discussing childhood vaccinations with anxious young parents. So glad to see that this guy (not a chiropractor) was exposed as a complete charlatan. Let’s hope the negative exposure will at least cause parents to take a second look when they are told by their local chiropractor that it would be safer to immunize their children by having their little necks twisted than by scheduling vaccinations at the office of their pediatrician. The only sad part about this story is that I doubt it will have any impact on chiropractic practice as these guys (chiros) had their anti-vax attitudes long before this zealot published his “research”. Remember folks, chiropractic more closely resembles a religion or cult than it does a health care profession. It is not now and has never been based in science but rather the ranting’s of an uneducated Canadian immigrant who worked as a grocer and fishmonger.

So what exactly is this blog trying to prove? Pick a point. Are you trying to stop the strokes caused by cervical manipulation? Are you trying to do away with the chiropractic profession as a whole? Are you trying to discredit that even a single person has ever been helped by a chiro.? Are you trying to say you know better how to practice “MEDICINE” then we do? Are you trying to say all vaccines are extremely safe and effective? You have lost focus yourself. You jump on any train that comes into the station that is anti chiro. You are an anasthesiologist, your education is no more then mine. As you were schooled in YOUR profession, I was schooled in MINE. I would never cross the boundries. I dont do surgeries, I have some very good friends who do whom I would recommend to anyone though. Stop trying to be something your not. You are not a chiropractor, stop trying to act like you know what we do…you dont! I dont know exactly what it is you do as an anasthesiologist. I am as schooled in your profession as you are in mine.

btw….the gentlemen responsible for the vaccine craze and all of the early vaccines was not a doctor either:) He had no formal schooling. Early doctors didnt have any schooling either, they just carried with them the secrets passed down through generations. Times change. Chiropractic is not medicine, never has been.

Might want to look into this scientific research method you all keep talking about because it has cost Pfizer billions in law suits due to its failure. How many lawsuits have they lost from drugs that they put through this very scientific method?

As for me…my choice is to continue on with the great healthcare professionals out there. M.D., D.C., P.T. doesnt matter, as long as the goal is to help as many as we can.

I appreciate your comments. I don’t think there is anything inconsistent about having more than one concern or issue. Our primary concern is to stop the senseless injuries, primarily strokes, that occur all too often following chiropractic neck twisting. However, we are also concerned with the rampant anti-vaccination zealotry running thru the chiro industry. And to be quite honest I also consider it one of my objectives to point out to all who are willing to listen that chiropractic more closely resembles a cult than a health care profession and has no basis in science. As far as my not being knowledgeable about your chosen profession I would tell you that I have spent much of the past 22 years researching chiropractic and if nothing else at least I can spell it which is more than you can say sir.

Oh, hi Bill. Nice to see you over here.

From what I understand, there are some members of the medical and osteo industries teaching highest neck-twisting to the physio trade at the University of Oklahoma. Are they qualified? Has anyone contacted them to get them to stop?

What’s frightening is that they teach a weekend course once a year to technicians who are not doctors of any kind? Is this safe? I would be very skeptical of letting members of the medico/pharma/physio trades twist necks without the proper training such as that of a chiropractic university or with the doctorate degree.

Perhaps someone reading this can contact them about the neck-twisting activities that’s going on there and ask them to stop it if they are not qualified.

I am also skeptical about their qualifications. There is a PT who teaches highest neck-twisting to other PT’s when this is usually a physician-based procedure in most state’s law’s.

http://www.ah.ouhsc.edu/rehab/documents/Spinal%20Manipulation%20OU-Tulsa%20March%202010%20brochure.pdf

Has anyone contacted any of the instructors about their teaching upper neck twisting to the physio trade?

Thanks

Oh dear…..Vann is at it again.
Are you out on a weekend pass?

This is a very serious matter Vann and these so called “issues” you continually raise on websites throughout bloggerland are wearing thin.

All have been addressed and in my opinion these questions have all been dealt with on Rick Greens site.

Either you lack the ability to comprehend logic or you are deliberatley trying to spread false statements and continue perpetuating the fraud of what chiropractors do when it comes to neck twisting. For Pete SAkes buddy…..LIVES ARE AT STAKE HERE! This is no joking matter.

I enjoy a good debate like most but feel you have been given enough rope.

There’s an old wise saying Van….when in a hole the first thing you must do in order to get out…IS PUT DOWN THE SHOVEL AND STOP DIGGING.

Hi Tory,
You seem to get around pretty well yourself in your official ‘position’ as Dr. Bill’s thong — protector of his private parts! LOLOLOL!

All I am saying is that those at the University of Oklahoma should be held accountable for teaching highest neck manipulation to the less-qualified physio trade. They are not doctors of any kind and are being taught by those in the medical/pharma/osteo industry. So that is why I am skeptical.

There is a Mr. Dave Johnson who is a P.T. and a PhD., but no medical/chiropractic doctorate degree, who is teaching highest neck manipulation at a weekend seminar to technicians. This to me would seem a bit risky, don’t you think?

If Bill Kingslinger wants to ban all neck-twisting, why doesn’t he just start with his own University of Oklahoma and their visiting osteopaths from down under with their elusive ‘osteopathic lesion’? Wouldn’t that just be the logical place to start? It just makes perfect sense.

http://www.ah.ouhsc.edu/rehab/documents/Spinal%20Manipulation%20OU-Tulsa%20March%202010%20brochure.pdf

Vann, Vann, Vann, how many times are you going to make me embarrass you? Let’s go thru this one more time.
Physical Therapists have provided the vast majority of high quality research into the legitimate use (as opposed to the chiropractic use) of SMT. With regard to the “Clinical Prediction Rule” PT’s have provided 100% of the research. PT’s follow scientific guidelines and only use SMT in the treatment of legitimate musculoskeletal ailments and never as part of a philosophical belief system. Chiropractors would like for the general public to believe that they are the true “experts” in the use of manipulative therapy but nothing could be further from the truth. While chiro’s do manipulate everyone that walks thru the door, their use of this type of therapy is frequently inappropriate and does not follow scientific guidelines. In other words, chiro’s do not engage in “evidence based practice”.
With regard to neck manipulation, PT’s are well aware of the significant hazards that this type of treatment entails and only undertake it when more conservative treatments have failed. Of equal importance, PT’s don’t ever use neck manipulation to treat asthma or other non-musculoskeletal ailments. Chiros on the other hand twist every neck they can get their hands on and completely ignore the reality that this treatment does all too often result in stroke or death.
The chiro industry as a whole is scared to death of the physical therapy profession. PT’s are required to undergo extensive post graduate training in well respected universities all around the world. Most PT programs are now actually doctoral level programs. Of note, PT’s actually earn undergraduate degrees before beginning their professional training. They are well respected in the world of conventional healthcare; they practice alongside physicians (MD’s and DO’s) and have privileges in hospitals as a matter of routine.
Chiropractors earn their “doctoral” degrees at mom and pop “institutions” none of which are associated with legitimate colleges or universities. None of the chiro colleges in North America require an undergrad degree as a prerequisite for admission, only recently have they required any college coursework at all. Most kids who graduate high school with a “C” average and who spend a couple of semesters at a community college could easily gain admission to one of the chiro “universities”. Chiro’s live in the world of “alternative medicine” which loosely means, “that which is neither proven to be safe nor effective”. In other words, chiropractic is nothing more than state sanctioned quackery.

For those of you who still are not sure simply consider the following question. If chiropractic is a legitimate healing are, why is there not a program in chiro at a single university in the USA?

Ouch!
Thanks once again Doctor Kinsinger for setting the record straight.

Fortunately most have come to understand Vanns reasonings/ for what they are; namely another feable attempt to disarm the truth, manipulate and deceive those not yet informed.

Kudos to you Doc for your continued diligence and desire to expose chiropractic for the circus it is.

On behalf of the many victims of chiropractic neck abuse, we THANK YOU with ALL of Our Hearts! Your message is reaching around the world and you are helping to save lives!

Hi Gang,
Well…our City has had its fair share of snow, Enough already!

In the past the weather didn’t affect our day to day activity choices but ever since my wife’s chiropractic neck injury she is restricted by the cold and the amount of snowfall. Pushing the wheelchair in this crap is ridiculous. Her legs chill and go numb quickly in the seated position despite the footwear.

Sadly she is a tetraplegic now and like many other people who find themselves confined to a wheelchair she must be extra careful to avoid any chest colds. Despite some body movement advances and some other improvement this will remain her biggest challenge. Breathing.

She has a number of operations coming up where the expert surgeons hope to do things that will improve her quality of life. It still boggles my mind that none of this should have happened to her.

Her deep caring and heartfelt compassion toward others astounds me. She talks almost daily of the other unfortunate Chiropractor victims. And of course she wants to make sure the message of the dangers surrounding neck manipulation get out there!

As a caregiver it’s difficult at times to accept that we have done everything possible for her. She refuses to accept this horrible and sudden needless fate. She continues to do everything she herself can to improve the ugly hand she has been dealt. She pushes forward with everything she has. But the nights can be very long. I still find myself making sure she is still breathing as this position is difficult for her.

We are grateful she can swallow a bit now. I rarely use the blender as most food can be chopped up into tiny enough bits that she can manage. And we no longer go into panic mode when she chokes!

We don’t have to look around long to see others suffering for everyone has something to deal with in life. As for us, well we have no more time to look back and dwell in the negatives. The what “ifs”. We have surrounded ourselves with wonderful family and supportive friends. When we are weak…they hold us up. We still find time to laugh. To let ourselves cry. And of course we continue to try and make some sense out of what has happened.

Can we make a difference…we sincerely hope so.

Many people know what chiropractic is but they don’t understand how it originated. If many more people would read this article, they would learn the important history of chiropractic and many more.

Troy, you would like us to believe you, but as everyone knows, on the Internet anyone can say anything they want. So unless you provide us with some proof of your ‘travails’, we must conclude that your remarks are nothing more than baloney designed to frighten and inflame.

That is why we are skeptical of your so-called ‘claims’.

There is none so blind as he who will not see.

Like I said — no proof.

Hey Shep. Friendly warning. Be careful what you ask for.

Really? Why?

A while back I decided to take my injured wife to a movie. She was delighted to get out of the house and have a little one on one time with me. We let the caregivers go home early and headed out. It had been such a long time.

We parked in an underground garage downtown. The series of elevators and marble hallways made for relative easy access.

I was proud of our “speed” and thought we just might make this movie on time. I was wrong.

When we finally got to the third elevator, the one that heads right up to the theatre ….it was out of order. We headed back home.

This simple thing, going to a movie, would prove to be challenging. The next time we went I phoned ahead just to make sure it was working. BUT ….you guessed it, another no-go.
We did make it to the upper street level from the garage but only to step off the elevator and hear the immediate sound of Alarms going off. Quickly I whipped the wheelchair around and pushed Sandy back into the Elevator. No use…the power is synchronized to the elevator to not allow access when an alarm is sounding.

So I rush Sandy to the pedway…only to have another loud buzzer sound and see the enormous steel door come down from the ceiling and block our retreat.

A voice came over the PA system advising everyone to exit the building via the ESCALATORS IMMEDIATELY> this was not a drill.

As people scurried, shops closed their drop doors and people fled hurriedly past us I panicked. I found one security guard and he directed Sandy and I to an empty hallway beside a freight elevator. It never did come.

So here’s the irony in all this. As we stood in the now vacant hallway with only the odd person fleeing past us, now virtually resembling anything but a busy mall, there is front of us, only a few feet away from where we stood looking for someone to direct us or help is , yup….A CHIROPRACTOR CLINIC!!!!! The owners, also no where to be seen.
To bad really because we could have had quite the chat with these Chiropractors while we waited for the EMS. Maybe they could have helped me carry her wheelchair down the stairs. Then again I’m not sure if they were even open that day. Just as well…the conversation would not have been pleasant.

Eventually we just positioned ourselves close to the escalator stairs and contemplated the worst. I would try and carry Sandy down these steps to the main front doors or flag down a fireman to help us if smoke appeared. We even started thinking maybe it was a bomb scare or gas problem. The mind races when you’re in a situation like this.
Some people stopped to ask us if we are ok but most just looked at us with concerned eyes and ran by. Some looked away recognizing our dilema. Unfortunately no firemen or rescue personel appeared in our closed off section and the Security Guard did not return as promised. We were trapped. Even the McDonalds closed their doors and fled the scene. It was the longest 55 minutes of our lives!

Keeping our minds busy helped control the deep fear. Obviously this Building has some “tweaking” to do with their emergency procedures. But the sight of that dam Chiropractor office right in front of us made us feel even worse.
You see if it wasn’t for a chiropractors stupid belief system we wouldn’t even be in this position in the first place. It kept running through our minds. The mere sight of another “clinic” promoting Chiropractic as a Healthy Choice …was the final insult. We felt so vulnerable and once again realized how much this ridiculous neck manipulation has changed both our lives.

Looking back what we should have done is called the media and had them take a picture of us in front of this Clinic. No, it was NOT this Chiropractor in the mall who did this to my wife BUT most Chiros as we know do continue to promote neck adjustments.

So much of our every day life has changed. Even just a simple trip to see a movie takes on a whole new set of challenges.All because of a barbaric and senseless procedure called Neck Manipulation.

Oh how I wish we knew then, what we know now. There is no way in Heaven that my wife would EVER had let him twist her neck. What a disaster.

Troy,
You mentioned that your wife is Sandy. Are you David Nette?

Not just another victim;Update
I am told that the jaw operations will be a long way down the road. In fact we just found out that the waiting list is into next year! As disappointing as this news is, we have heard that the Surgeon is one of the best. The wait will be worth it!

Then once things heal up from this operation she will begin the next phase. Her paralyzed throat will be re-built by a well known plastic surgeon. This will not help with the swallowing but we should get a little more volume coming out. It’s amazing what modern medicine can do and we are so grateful for these skilled hands!! She is not looking forward to more hospital time but will do whatever it takes to get back some of her previous self.

Her legs have issues that other surgeons will address soon as well. When you lay in bed recovering for so long the body does some strange things. It’s quite the journey and as one Doctor so well said….not a sprint but a marathon.

Thankfully she is strong and has led an extremely healthy lifestyle. Although she is limited in her ability to communicate she is even writing her name again! And she can type with one hand! These improvements may seem minor to some of you but for my wife THIS IS WONDERFUL! She has been through a living hell and her nightmare is not over.

My days and many nights are exhausting as well but I am not complaining for I wouldn’t want to be in my wife’s shoes. Despite the loss, the pain and the unbelievable sorrow, she is still the most positive loving person I know. Her forgiveness knows no boundaries.

We continue to pray for change. For common sense to prevail. For the abolishment of upper neck manipulations by anyone who still thinks this is a good idea.

If what has happened to us, happened to you or someone you love, it would affect you the same way. If you care about helping people and doing the right thing…well I know whoever is reading this will relate to what I’m saying. We just now know of way too many otherwise healthy young people who have had similar outcomes following a neck manipulation. We share a common bond and voice the same concerns. In fact when my wife was in the hospital yet another gal ended up on the same ward with the same fate.

Our hope today is that Chiropractors everywhere will begin to question what they have been taught. And of course we respect and endorse any who refrain from this practice of upper neck adjustments.

Can anyone update me on the Quebec, Canada Chiro Lawsuit?

Has it even started??? And if so when will we the general public have access to the proceedings?

Even a Court Doc number or filing date would help.
Thanks!

We understand that there is to be yet another up to date in-depth documentary on Sandra Nette, BEING HOSTED by a well known TV personality.
When can we expect this to air and on which TV stations? And can you devulge WHO this mystery correspondent is? PLEASE!

Oh ya and Vann/aka Skep…how many allias do you use? I mean besides these two? lol

We got out of town over the weekend. Nice to get away once in a while now.

My wife managed ok but we had a real serious choking spell in a Boston Pizza. It did have its funny moments though. Especially when the waitress offered to assist. “Allow me” …were her final words as she proceeded to flip my pizza completely upside down. Sandy laughed for so long and so hard she choked on her soft ravioli. Even after I had cut it up into tiny pieces! She just couldn’t contain herself. You just had to be there to appreciate the humour but the folks sitting around us were very alarmed by the sounds coming out of Sandy’s throat. Ice cream was on the house!

There were many people at the party we attended. It was difficult for my wife to be heard (make that impossible) and I felt sorry for her sitting there in her wheelchair. Throughout the night though, those closest to us who knew our situation, made every attempt to get close to her enough so she could be heard. She really misses the easy communication but refuses to use her speaking board. Maybe this will improve after her operations.

Still it was a wonderful evening and we stayed in a hotel that had wheelchair accommodation. Gone are the days of a return trip. Sandy just gets too sore.

We stopped at a washroom on the way home. What a friggin nightmare. There is NO WAY a person with her disabilities could EVER use it on their own. Couldn’t even turn the chair around. I had to crawl over the toilet to help her. This is a common problem but one that we must deal with now.

Yes folks, the basic everyday simplest of things we took for granted are gone. The best we can do now is continue to spread the word about the dangers of needless and senseless chiropractic neck manipulations.
Have a great week.

Well, Tory, what you offer is far from the proof that we have been asking, but you do write stories very well. For every malpractice case involving a chiropractic doctor, there are probably 1000 involving the medical industry. Maybe even more!

I understand the Nette case was thrown out by the high courts in Alberta. Not enough class for a class-action, eh? Apparently it was, and still is, hate-driven that is fueled by the same old bigoted MD’s to carry out their vision of medical apartheid towards chiropractic and other natural, non-drug approaches to health care. That’s what caused their Zeppelin to implode in Connecticut. BOOM! Lol!! More on this later.

Bill, I think I can help you out here. You seem to be confused about the neck-twisting that is sanctioned by the University of Oklahoma and the PT trade in general.

The neck-twisting course is taught by osteopaths from Australia to members of the PT and osteopathic trades in a weekend course once a year at the University of Oklahoma. This upper neck-twisting of the highest neck is, IMO, crude and not precise or specific, as these trade groups don’t get the thousands of hours of training that chiropractic doctors get in a four-year, post-graduate doctoral-level course at chiropractic universities throughout the U.S., Canada, and other countries. Also, the point you don’t get, and reveals your ignorance, when you mention about the P.T. trade becoming doctors is that 99% of the physio trade is NOT doctors, while 100% of the chiropractic profession IS made up of doctors with doctoral-level degrees.

Now don’t get me wrong, osteopaths are fantastic with drugs and even surgery, better than most allopaths, even though they couldn’t get into real medical school. I mean, if they wanted to be medical doctors, why didn’t they just go to medical school? Who would say, ‘I want to be a medical doctor so I’ll go to osteopathic school!’ Right?

And the P.T. trade does fantastic work with rehab, amputees, post-trauma, muscle stretching, respiratory therapy, recovery from surgical errors, brain injury from anesthesiologists and other horrific medical malpractice, etc.. I give them lots of credit. They are a very caring profession. However, they are very hesitant about spinal manipulation largely due to training that is inferior to the thousands of hours that chiropractic doctors train to do this.

So, these courses like the one in upper-cervical neck-twisting that is sanctioned by the University of Oklahoma and apparently is endorsed by Bill Kinsinger who is an instructor for this class is meant to be a stop-gap measure, but severely lacking in hours and experience as it is only on a weekend, given once a year. Too risky to try out on the unsuspecting public when they get back to the office Monday morning, if you ask me!

So your endorsement of upper neck-twisting by your association with the course at the University of Oklahoma is likely the reason that Kaiser rebuked your intense lobbying efforts and restored it’s coverage of spinal manipulation. You see, your argument that ‘if chiropractic doctors do spinal manipulation they should be shot, but osteos or physios, well then, no problem… twist away!’ is why you are viewed as a bigoted, flat-earther who is blowing a lot of gas.

This will, of course, be a ball and chain around your ankle and that of the anti-chiropractic groups in every ‘lawsuit’ and legislative action that they bring up, that you are involved with, and, of course, lose (think Murray Katz – More later).

I am confident that the odor of the ‘approved’ course in neck-twisting at the University of Oklahoma will permeate the room.

See, according to you and yours, it is OK for ill-trained physio and osteo trades members to ‘practice’ highest neck twisting on the unsuspecting public, but you turn beet red if you hear about a highly trained chiropractic doctor with 4 years of post-graduate level study at a chiropractic university helping people with this well-respected form of health care. I believe that the term “medical apartheid” is very apropos and accurately describes your mental-case hatred.

So, Bill, there you have it. I hope this helps. Enjoy!

BTW, have you heard that the State of Connecticut, Board of Examiners has made it official? They endorsed wording now permanently in the record that the testimony of your bum-buddy and mentor, Murray Katz, the Canadian surgeon who’s specialty is cutting off the tips of little boy’s peni, is now officially recognized as “not credible”.

Yes, amazing that they would put this in the official record, endorsed by all the board members, even the non-doctor member who has ties to one of the chiropractic ladies. Even the assistant attorney general was there. Incredible!

Personally I find your language distasteful and not fit to read. To say you are offensive would be an understatement.

Obviously you are not capable of understanding the seriousness of the issue at hand. Dr. Kinsinger and others have tried to explain in simple english yet you respond in less than civil manners. Sadly you do not do your “profession” any justice and only confirm what I already believe.

Enough said.

Well thank you, Tory. Coming from you, I take that as a very high compliment!! LOLOLOL!!

AS YOUR BLOG ADMINISTRATOR, I HAVE DELETED A PARAGRAPH FROM VANNSKY’S LAST ENTRY. THE REASON FOR THE DELETION IS FOR LANGUAGE AND PERSONAL INSULTS THAT I PERCEIVE AS STEPPING OVER THE BOUNDARY FOR A BLOG SUCH AS THIS.

BRYAN FARHA

Thank you Professor Bryan Farha.

My apologies, professor. I meant only to indicate that Tory has also exhibited many instances that clearly exhibited his skilled ability of being prone to hyperbole, or at worst, creating posts that are, IMO, complete fabrication.

Obviously the truth hurts.
Deal with it.

Vannsky,
Good stuff! Everyone check out the link. Its eye opening and its real. This is and always will be personal to Dr. Billy. He has failed at this for 22 years now. Why? Because his claims are all based on lies! Heres to 22 more years of failure for you my friend:)

Chiropractic is famous for RESULTS! What results has Dr. Billy had in 22 years of fighting the good fight?

Can you say “Florida State”, Dr. Hill????

Regarding the plight of the Chiropractor overseers;
The local internal mechanisms for conflict resolution have been badly damaged.

Clearly it is time for this organization to revamp their old ways of doing things.

Until their mal practice insurance coverage rises to appropriate and acceptable industry standards, many sole Chiro operators will simply be wiped out.

Their “Captain of this ship” must cease with the divide and rule policies. The bottom of the bag is dripping wet and its members are furious with the continued nonsense.

Gone are the days of mystical reasoning and snake oil treatments. (Thanks in part to the internet and sites like this one; the masses are becoming educated on the risks of upper neck manipulation.)

Their position has not just been weakened…it’s been destroyed.

We anxiously await the next iteration of dedicated officials.
Toss the existing board is my recommendation. It can not happen fast enough.

Embrace change. Don’t run from it.

“The sure conviction that we could if we wanted to is the reason so many good minds are idle.”
Georg Lichtenberg

Once again we must send Kudos to Dr. Bill Kinsinger for his tremendous efforts on exposing the dangers up neck manipulation.

Over the years you have indeed fought the good fight and accomplished great things. There is an awareness that prevails and continues to grow with much momentum.

Your experience and wisdom is appreciated by people world-wide.

Once again, many heartfelt thanks or all you do in bring closure to this barabaric and senseless practice. You are making a difference and a better and safer world for all of us.

Perhaps it’s time for me to use the other computer….LOL
These darn keys are way too sensitive.

Either that or it’s time to use spell-check!

Have a great week everyone!!!
T & C

Hi Dr. Kinsinger
There is much talk about the chiropractors hurting for business these days.

I have my own reasons for why I think this is happpening but would be intetested in knowing if you can enlighten us on why this is so prevelant?

Hey Troy. I don’t have any current statistics but the last numbers I saw did indicate that a smaller percentage of the general public here in North America was utilizing chiropractic care. I would like to think that the decline is at least partly due to the increased awareness of the potential for stroke, especially when viewed in light of the virtual absence of evidence for tangible benefit. As conventional medicine continues to make great strides and advancements, the chiropractic industry remains hopelessly mired in the fairy tale world of a nineteenth century grocer and magnetic healer. At the end of the day consumers want “health care” that is scientifically based, effective, and safe; chiropractic does not and can not meet any of these standards.

Thanks Dr. Kinsinger!

As always you hit the mark!

The amazing Activator that Chiros supposedly use to find subluxations…hehehehe ( The real joke is there are STILL chiros who use this useless piece of scrap iron.

A few years ago during an airing of Scientific American Frontiers, several VERY interesting things were noted;
Dr. Robert Baratz of the “National Council against Health Fraud” explained in detail how it is perfectly normal for one leg to be longer than the other.
And I quote the article,” The length of the leg is NOT determined by the spine or the back, it’s determined by the bones of the leg.” He went on to state, ” …and by manipulating the spine or the back, you’re not going to change that, because those bones aren’t going to change their length BY ANY FORM OF MANIPULATION, unless you break them.”

Ok….so now you know how useless this leg pulling and Activator thingy is. Now let’s get a little lesson in some of the gizmos these chiropractors use. I’ll take you all on a journey over the next few weeks. It’ll be fun.

I like to start with the rubber tipped plunger ( Activator ) because this is a popular tool that they like to impress the uneducated with. Yes gang, that’s pretty much what chiropractic is all about. Appearance. The things they will do to look important. LOLOLOLOLOL We’ll you know…to look like uh like real Doctors.

Stay tuned for many more articles on the zany world of shiny contraptions that will mystify all logic. Get ready for wing ding devices than you ever thought possible! If the authorities were on the ball , the majority of these contraptions would be confiscated.

The next piece of crap we will look into that the chiros use is called the Interro machine. But I’m warning you folks…..when I tell you what this bogus gadget does your going to cry. With laughter!

Stay tuned…

The Interro Machine ( LOL)
This puppy is used by the chiros to diagnose allergies. They call this vibrational medicine. You hold a brass rod in one hand which is attached to this Interro gizmo. The Interro machine was connected to a desktop computer. The subject is apparently told there is an acupuncture point on the tip of your finger…..which is connected to your LARGE INTESTINE!!!!

They call it a biofeedback machine.

Dr. Stephen Barrett didn’t mince words about the junk this one is. ” It can’t do what it’s said to be able to do,” he explained. Adding ” there’s no mechanism by which it’s possible.”

Apparently the chiropractor was trying to convince people that this thing could measure frequency wavelength, put it in a computer and get fed back to an individual. MEasuring molecular vibrations frequency much like an electron microscope.

Similar devices that are much like this one are the Galvanopsychometer, the RX-Micro – tabulometer, the Psychgalvanometer , the Ellis Micromdyameter, the mickeymouseodomometer, etc.

And these cowboys dare to call themselves “Doctors!”

Sorry guys….my stomach hurts from laughing too hard. I’ll bring more later. I need to re-group. lolol

Hope everyone had a GREAT weekend!

I’m very familiar with Stephen Barrett. He’s co-founder of the National Council Against Health Fraud, a retired psychiatrist, and operates Quackwatch.org in which I have published an article on alleged psychic Sylvia Browne. If interested, the article is found at http://www.quackwatch.com/11Ind/browne.html

Bryan Farha

From what I have found on the internet, this Steve Barrett is the retired psychiatrist who revealed under testimony that he failed his psychiatry specialty boards, so he was never board certified, so I am skeptical about his ability to judge others and their methods.

He has also lost several costly lawsuits. In one in particular he, along with another MD, owes over $400,000. He has lost other lawsuits to several chiropractic doctors that he initiated.

As for questionable methods, they prescribe Prozac to children and babies. They never met a drug they didn’t like. And of course, there is the very famous and dubious, electro-shock “treatment” that many consider the gold-standard of quackery.

This is why I am extremely skeptical about holding up a psychiatrist as the arbiter of good and bad.

Whether you like this post or not, Bryan, it is all completely factual and documented. Of course you will likely be required by Bill to remove it.

“Vannsky” –
It’s possible that your remarks are factual–I haven’t checked them out. I didn’t make a value judgement about Barrett–only that he:

1. was co-founder of the National Council Against Health Fraud.
2. is a retired psychiatrist.
3. operates Quackwatch.org (or “com”).
4. published my article on his website.

[now I've said it for a second time]

Yes, it is all true and documented.

Bryan, I can understand Bill’s anti-chiropractic extremism, because the AMA and those like him, are famous for mental-case medical apartheid hatred against all that is not in their paradigm of accepting gifts from pretty pharmaceutical reps and drug-based experimentation on American citizens.

But why are you involved in this fatwah? (fatwa?)

Thanks.

Be careful of your language here–I deleted one of your comments because of language and you’re bordering on it again. My intention was to supply the avenue to exchange comments, but not to get involved myself in the exchanges. But recently, I’ve broken that intention. Why am I “involved”? The best way to answer this if for me to simply paste the “ABOUT” link found in the upper-left corner of each page of this blog, which reads:

“SMOKE & MIRRORS” is a NewsOK.com blog whose purpose is to critically examine extraordinary claims–often in the “paranormal” arena–sometimes revealing deception, fakery, and faulty beliefs that lead us to draw erroneous conclusions regarding unexplained phenomena. We will also include a more fun and entertaining component–visual and optical illusions. Science tells us that we should not blindly accept unorthodox claims–such as levitation–without skeptically examining the evidence. This blog will guide the reader to logical explanations, research, and relevant web sites and articles that will assist in drawing rational conclusions about anomalous wonder.

Bryan Farha, Ed.D. is a professor at Oklahoma City University where he coordinates the graduate programs in applied behavioral studies and counseling. Editor of Paranormal Claims: A Critical Analysis, he serves as a technical consultant to the Committee for Skeptical Inquiry. He has approximately 30 publications-many of which appear in critical thinking periodicals such as Skeptic and Skeptical Inquirer. His work in educating the public regarding paranormal claims and pseudoscientific deception has been recognized by TIME.com, CNN, the National Geographic Channel, and A&E. He has given over 80 interviews for television, radio, newspapers, and books.

Thank you Professor Farha. I appreciate your analytical approach and your scientific viewpoints.

But what about the deception that Bill Kinsinger is perpetrating? He thinks that ‘neck twisting’ causes hundreds of strokes but has yet to provide any verifiable data. At the Connecticut hearings, he and the others had their chance to prove their point, yet provided no experts on strokes, neurology, dain bramage, safety or anything other than bigotry and medical apartheid which led to their failure. They provided no ‘sheer numbers’ of so-called ‘victims’. The people that were there produced no medical records. Bill didn’t even show up to represent the medical industry.

It became shockingly clear to all that it was not about strokes or informed consent or even safety. It was led by Murray Katz who has spent his adult in the full-time hatred of the chiropractic health care profession…even before the stroke issue was invented. The board ruled that his testimony was “not credible” and put it in the offical documents of the hearings. New Zealand said he engaged in a “deliberate course of lies and deceit.” Yet they still parade him in as their cheerless leader who will save the day for their Hindenberg.

So if it is about safety, then why isn’t Bill, or you, concerned with the 800,000 – one million Americans who are killed EACH YEAR from medical quackery, goof-ups and bloopers according to the scientific literature. And these are just the preventable ones.

http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2004/mar2004_awsi_death_01.htm

I understand they see a sicker population, but the above numbers are from preventable medical errors. This makes medicine the number one killer of Americans, ahead of heart attacks, cancer and strokes.

No blogs about this Bryan?

Another thing that fails the smell test, is that Bill is OK with neck-twisting if physio technicians are taught it in weekend sessions at the University of Oklahoma. Well then it’s not dangerous because they are not thinking of the word ‘subluxation’ when they do it. Right, Bill. They are just thinking of ‘structural misalignment’. Oh, and the osteopathic trade is just thinking of ‘osteopathic lesion’, so that’s OK.

Don’t you get it, Bryan? Your credentials and reputation are being used by a band of a few medical bigots who can’t stand anything that goes against their drugs-for-all philosophy of the medical/pharma industry. As long as everyone is herded into the medical corral, we will all get along just fine!

Ed Barisa, executive director of the Canadian Chiropractic Association said it best. ” Yes,it’s worrying,” he says of the chiropractic fringe. “The association’s position is that chiropractic needs to be evidence based.”

Vannsky–I don’t answer questions that are better directed to Dr. Kinsinger. But to address your general concern, perhaps “burden” is of importance here. I dedicated my book to the late scientist Carl Sagan, who wrote an interesting article called “The Burden of Skepticism”–which I am in agreement with. If interested, you can read this article at http://www.e-reading.org.ua/bookreader.php/148580/Sagan_-_The_Burden_of_Skepticism.pdf. But the general message of the article is that the burden of proof for any person or organization making an extraordinary claim is on that person or organization. I suspect Bill–and many other health care professionals–would consider many claims of many in the chiropractic profession to be “extraordinary.” As such, the burden of proof is on chiropractic to scientifically demonstrate the efficacy of any claim under controlled, experimental conditions–and that any positive results be replicable as well. This is something science demands–as it should. And it’s something that chiropractors with integrity will demand. I have seen chiropractic literature where the claims seemed extraordinary–if not outlandish, frankly. I’m not sure I’ve seen convincing studies in reputable medical periodicals to support such claims, however. So back to Sagan’s point. The burden is not on medicine to disprove chiropractic claims, but rather is on chiropractic to present indisputable research to support the claims.

This is my last post in dialoging with you since it was not my intention to participate in this way. The chiropractors and M.D.’s can continue the discussion, if desired.

Bryan Farha

Well thank you, Bryan, I appreciate your concern. I am all for proof. Proof that anything works. Drugs, natural, whatever.

But how did you get off the stroke topic? What question were you answering? IOW the stroke thing, as has been proven here, Connecticut, Canada is all ‘Smoke and Mirrors’ like I said.

so where’s the proof? Why didn’t you demand the proof of the claims from Bill xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ? [EDITED BY BLOG CREATOR FOR LANGUAGE]

See, it has nothing to do with stroke or safety.

As I thought, Prof. Farha.

For all interested. There are literally dozens of case reports in highly reputable peer reviewed medical journals detailing cervical arterial dissections and strokes immediately following chiropractic neck manipulation dating back to the original report in JAMA in 1934. In addition there have been multiple peer reviewed articles in quality journals such as Neurology and Stroke in the last 15 years by such renowned researchers as Rothwell and Lee pointing to a direct link between neck manipulation and stroke. Regarding the use of neck manipulation by PT’s, I have said consistently that there is risk of injury regardless of the credentials of the practitioner. However, PT’s with there scientifically based education look at neck manipulation in a whole different light than chiros. They tend to use it sparingly if at all and certainly not in the treatment of non-musculoskeletal ailments or to “immunize” a child. There is no hypocrisy here, only a few chiros unwilling to let go of their faith in a philosophical belief system with no basis in science.

Thanks to Dr. Farha for keeping this forum alive and putting up with the childlike behavior of Vann and his pals.

People like YOU Vannsky, are the reason why people like ME, need MEDICATION.

Hey Vann/shep. Since you are apparently incapable of performing a literature search I thought I would help you out a bit. Enjoy.

Smith WS, et al. Spinal manipulative therapy is an independent risk factor for vertebral artery dissection. Neurology. 2003;60:1424-1428
Williams LS, Biller J. Vertebrobasilar dissection and cervical spine manipulation. Neurology. 2003; 60:1408-1409
Rothwell DM, et al. Chiropractic Manipulation and Stroke A Population Based Case-Control Study. Stroke. 2001;32:1054-1060
Ernst E. Chiropractic Care: Attempting a Risk-Benefit Analysis. American Journal of Public Health. 2002;92:1603-1604
Lee PK, et al. Neurologic complications following chiropractic manipulation: A survey of California neurologists. Neurology 1995;45:1213-1215
Miley ML, et al. Does Cervical Manipulative Therapy Cause Vertebral Artery Dissection and Stroke? The Neurologist 2008;14: 66-73
Homola S. Chiropractic, Cervical Spine Manipulation, and Stroke. The Scientific Review of Alternative Medicine. 2007;11

Is it true that the number of Chiropractor “graduates”, are rapidly falling in both the United States and Canada? Or are these numbers just reflective of Canadian chiropractors?

And I realize that the chiropractors are not allowed to practice in many Countries but over-all what is happening in the rest of the world?

Is the pulse fading? Will this finaly spell the end of chirquackery as we know it?

These articles are RIGHT ON Dr. Kinsinger. For crying out loud ….what is wrong with us???? Why is it taking so long for others to wake up and see how dangerous this is and why on earth are not more people brave enough to stand up to these chiropractors? Just how many back pockets are these chiros in anyways?

It’s been proven over and over again that chiropractors do not carry adequate mal practice insurance. What else is new? As a family we carry more insurance and I am a private citizen. What Chiros carry for insurance overage is a complete and utter joke. Most Lawyers I have spoken with describe their “negotiation skills” and immoral unethical tactics verging on deceptive.

Three Canadian Inquests and the proof is in. Years of evidence. Mounting reviews and reports of chiropractors blunders. Hundreds of Chiro victims and all we hear is excuse after excuse from these quacks. Young people from all walks of life, needlessly collapsing on the chiropractors tables and they say….OOPS ….it must be a pre-existing condition…or oh my, what a co-incidence , someone else collapsed on my table just last year! What are the odds!

LISTEN Up you GENIUSES, Chiropractic neck twisting is NOT a good thing to be doing. DUH! Deaths have been caused. People have been injured….many left with crippled bodies. All because of a neck manipulation that was in most if not all cases…. UNNECESSARY! That’s the real horror of this whole stupid thing. Needless. Completely needless.

Coroners reports have been verified. So why pray-tell are we still discussing this crap. IF THE CCPA CAN NOT FULLFILL IT’S MANDATED RESPONSIBILITIES….THEN WHY ARE OUR GOVERNMENTS NOT TAKING CONTROL OF THE REINS? And the States are no better. Enough already people….enough.

Should not then the whole remaining body of chiropractors step up to the plate & thereby pitch in their own personal funds to properly cover and aid those who have been injured by their fellow practitioners? ( In your dreams!) Just who’s responsibility is it to make sure these nut jobs carry proper amounts of coverage anyways? I feel sorry for the victims who get left in the dust. Bankruptcy seems like such a slimy low way of wiping their dirty hands and simply walking away. What a despicable bunch of shysters in my opinion. I blame the colleges and teachers who insist on perpetuating these lies.
My guess is the Governments who assist in Licensing these nuts will eventually have no choice but insist the chiroquackery carry enough insurance. How many times must WE the TAX-PAYERS , pay for these tragedies? Enough already!

QUESTION: Does anyone know if any Government has ever been successful in retrieving compensation towards the hospital victim expenses incurred from any past chiropractor legal case? I’ve heard that some chiropractor victims financial medical bills run into the MILLIONS!!!!!

Seems to me that these Chiro characters have had an easy road for way too long. They want to be called doctors but are not willing to do the schooling , nor are they accepted by any University affiliation, nor do the want to pay the premiums that real Doctors who see Real Injuries and with Real life trauma.Oh,but they do want to be portrayed as some vital piece of the health care system.
Is it just me ….or does something smell rotten here???? Can you say ” double standard?”

It’s high time we focused on evidence based scientific medical standards and crushed the fable filled world of mystical chiropractic snake oil treatment practices such as upper neck twisting and it’s so called miraculous “merrits”. ( As I chicken peck this email out , steching forward from my wheelchair.)

I am thankful for sites like this that expose the shrines odf deception and shameful shams for what they are. I appreciate the Farhas and the Kinsingers of the world who will not bow to anything that resembles a hoax and are brave enough to take a stand for truth and honesty.

Chiropractors……what a Circus. It must end and soon is not soon enough.

For me it is too late. A Chiropractor twisted my neck and destroyed my life. INSTANTLY EVERYTHING and I mean EVERYTHING changed. My prime years that were at my doorstep are now closed. My financial opportunities vanished before my eyes. I am now dependant on others for my care. I will never be able to experience freedom in the the way I once envisioned.
Nothing is right about what happened to me but I must accept what is, move forward and optimistically hope for the best.

I receive emails almost daily from other’s who just like me thought they were doing something good and helpful for their health. What a HUGE mistake and one I will personal regret for the rest of my now wheelchair life.

I get sick when I read chiropractors boasting of what they can do for people. I get sick when I even see a chiropractor sign hanging in the mall. I get sick when I hear of victim after victim still not getting the message that Upper Neck Manipulation MUST BE STOPPED and still attend and some even ask for these services!

Insane is too soft a term to be used. For me…well I consider what they do criminal. Period. If all they took from me was my money that would be one thing. But for me the loss is immeasurable. I took my health very serious and was in the prime of my life.

I am left just wondering when things will actually change for good. I do sincerely hope it is in my lifetime because I will not be able to relax and move forward with any amount of calm until I know for sure that another person will not have to go through the same senseless and needless injury of what I am now enduring.

Upper neck manipulation will end.
It’s only a matter of time.

Unfortunately the wheels of justice move very slow, but they do grind ever so fine.

The following advice, my advice, just might help everyone here from making a costly mistake with their precious lives;

Always see a REAL QULAIFIED Medical Doctor ( MD ) FIRST! Don’t try and self medicate when your body is telling you that something is wrong…no matter how minor. Get in touch with your health.

Follow the advice of your Doctor.
For me…If I’m a littel sore or stiff I just wait it out. 95% of the time it resolves itself in about 3 days to two weeks.With no treatments from anyone.

I take simple over the counter relief if things are too stiff. Usually any discomfort disappears all on its own. Heat and cold packs have brought me many a good nights sleep also! Gentle massage, hot bubble bath ,a few candles ….you get the idea.

I now take the money I would have spent on the Chiropractors and have joined a nice gym. I think that by simply strengthening more of my core stomach muscles, I have eliminated any future serious back pain. Even my joints feel better!

But of course your qualifies medical Doctor will be able to do the proper diagnosis, and make the right recommendations for YOU!

Never trust a Chiropractor to twist your neck. If things go wrong you will never see the inside of a gym again.

Lastly, with all the money we are now saving by NOT seeing the Chiropractor (they always pushed me to come way too often!) I am able to take the family out to dinner and enjoy life more.

Common sense amongst chiropractors is not so common.

This has to be one of the best sights on the web.
And I should know! I’ve checked too many to count.

When you want the truth and aren’t afraid of the answers…this is the place to come.

Satisfying inquiring minds and answering the tough questions.

It’s nie to see the chirosourasses corrected on so many levels.

I havae NEVER in my life seen such a stubborn bunch who refuse to engage common sense. Even when confronted with mounting medical evidence and an abundance of real victim examples, they insist on looking foolish.

Actualy I retract my original stance on perhaps accepting some of their methods as legit. This is snake oil sales at it’s best.

Come on people…WAKE UP….next these guys will be proclaiming they can levitate while working on your back. And provide eternal youth.

Geesh. Wonder what’s taken us so long to can this scam?

I spoke with a gentleman the other day who conveyed that his chiropractor friend was not happy. Apparently business has really dropped off the last couple of years.

I think this familiar and growing trend amongst chiropractors speaks volumes and shows more than just a bad economy.

Today, they is no room for make believe. Claims MUST be backed up be solid verifiable scientific standards. Especially when it comes to healthcare.

While I am thrilled to see the word getting out there,I still wonder about the role our Governments should be playing. Just how long, how many more people must be needlessly injured, before they step in and halt this practice of upper neck manipulation?

I check in from time to time for a good laugh but this time I can’t resist.I’m curious Troy, this gowing trend you speak of, how many Chiropractors do you personally know? I have a feeling not many if any. Inlcuding myself I know about ten that make 7 figures per year. Now you can argue and run your mouth, I’m quite sure you will, buth those are facts. And for your solid verifiable standards. Where is the science behind the number one cause of death in our country? I still to this day have yet to see one Chiropractor who has been proven to have caused death or stroke. You or your hero can’t produce one name.
As for the rest of you Chiropractic bashers. I was just in california where there were over 2000 doctors attending and 16 of the top researchers presenting the latest research. Quit watching the ads on tv for your information and actually read. I know it’s more fun to find something to hate but it’s getting you no where. 80’000 chiropracors avg 100 visits per week. do the math. All without tv ads or hospital priv. The public demands us and we will always be here. But keep ranting, it gives us something to laugh about.

There is none so blind as those who can see yet choose not to.

I would respectfuly suggest that this chiropractor has not done his due diligence.

This subject does not revolve around hate. Rather this forum and many others like it, promote science based facts.

Chiropractic has failed to demonstrate any real value to the health care system other than some mild and temporary placebo effects. There will always be the faithful blind sheep who are willing to risk their lives. But once properly informed I still support the view that most would come to understand the folly and unscientific belief system that chiropractic relies upon.

So, do your research my friend! The names of the victims are out there. The Coroner reports are in. The Emperor indeed has no clothes. Sorry….sometimes the truth is a hard pill to swallow.

The good news is there are many other real jobs out there if you just look. Unfortunately, the people I have spoken with would agree with most of the bloggers here that the trade is seriously hurting. And things are only going to get worse because people don’t like being played for a fool.

I think the Insurance Companies and private citizens should insist on getting refunds. After all…the evidence points us to now understand that chiropractic is a scam.
Thank you.

And by the way…no one should be laughing. The victims sure aren’t.

It seems you are practicing for you creative writing class with you eloquent style. There are thousands of research paper in 100s of journals. You and the few, very few, that speak without actually reading only prove your own ignorance. The private citizens are the reason Chiropractic is so strong. They are tired of being lied to by the mds and pharm co. As for the sheep. Ill let the pediatrician who brought her kids to me last week know that she is just a blind sheep. Ill also let the cororner I treat know that he is in danger. He probably will also laugh because of all the dead kids he has seen do to vaccines. But wait, they are scientifically proven.
I have done my research. Its what I do. You “stats” are wrong. Very wrong. I have read the post on thid blog and I know i will get so many intelligent comments in respose but all of you ask yourself this. If Chiropractic is so dangerous and it’s nothing more than a placebo effect then why are we still here and why do we see so many people. I guess we have a world full of blind sheep.

Dear Chiropractor; on your once again blatant lie …”All without TV ads or hospital priv.”

Well you are right on one thing; chiropractors don’t, nor will they EVER have hospital privileges. This privilege is reserved indeed for real medical Doctors.(MD’s)You know buddy…the ones whose standards of care measure up under the strictest of scrutiny and are based on proven fact. Not fantasy make believe treatments conjured up in la la land.

As for your statement that “chiropractors do not advertise” I’m sorry but you will have to find another site to blow this smoke! LOL
In fact the chiropractors have stepped up their commitment to advertising on our local TV stations AND on radio. Between the new ad campaigns that they are parading on the backs of City transit buses AND the recent paid infomercial heard just a few weeks ago on 630 CHED I’m just about ready to gag. I find them embarrassing to the intelligence of mankind.

The worst of these poorly constructed ads is the obnoxious cartoon characters that display a stick man biker trying to get off his Hog and enter the Chiro Wellness clinic. The end line they use if: “LIFE SHOULDN’T have to Hurt”.
Ya right…..try telling that to us victims.

They have backed off showing this particular juvenile ad but with all the successful recent lawsuits tromping the bejeezers out of the last two chiropractors in Alberta, I suspect they will start placing more ads shortly. Guess they figure it’s their only hope. Anyway this is just my observations from a City of One Million people. I can only imagine how many more cities are getting hammered with this type of ploy for customers.

So I hope this clears things up a little for you Mr. chiropractor. Perhaps next time just do your research FIRST silly and be more careful what you write. Everything posted on this site is being monitored very closely by many people a whole lot smarter than me. And you can be sure that if I can catch you in a deliberate lie just how many more untruths do you thing the pros on this site will spot?

I wish the chiropractors who “you claim” ( Not that I believe anything you say now ) to be making so much money would have spent less time in Marketing Classes and a little more time and effort learning real valuable medical procedures in an accredited University. But once again your words, not mine, reveal so very much.

Just fair warning my friend; RESEARCH first … then post.

There is no honour going down with the ship if you are the only one on board.

By the way, please send your victims….I mean blind sheep to this blog and let them decide for themselves who amongst us speaks the truth.

Right…it will never happen. You like sheep. You need sheep.

An educated person given the right information can easily make wise decisions regarding the pointless risks of needless neck manipulations for instance. This is for the chiro trade yet another lost business transaction. A loss in revenue. A loss in credibility.

Best keep these sheep in the dark and keep encouraging them to come back for regular maintenace clippings.Anything else for these struggling chiros would be suicidal to their ability to earn an income. And really folks lets get serious here….just follow the money!

Canadian. That explains why you are so angry. I would be to.
Explain this:
United states ranks 43 in the world for overall health.
We spend more money on healthcare than any other country.
The leading cause of death is avoidable medical errors.
We are the only country allowed to advertise drugs on tv.
“standard of care and proven fact” The only proven fact is that your beloved mds kill more people than cancer ,heart disease and diabetes combined. mds used to tell their patients to start smoking to help their asthma. The surgeon general once released a claim that smoking was good for your health.
Lets mention vioxx.
Heres what you dont get. If what we are doing has no benifit people would have quit coming years ago.
The conversation I had with the peditrician who brought her kids to me for esr infections explains alot. She said she keeps giving them antibiotics. I asked her what her own journals said about giving antibiotics for ear infections. She said that they dont work. Why do you keep giving them to your kids then? I dont know what else to do. At least shes honest.
Your turn!!!!

LOL….Chiropractor: You really should do your homework. You are not doing your fellow trade people any favours by spouting lies again.

Even in Canada you don’t have to watch TV long to see an ad promoting some type of drug. So what? You will also not that following the benefits they always list the possible adverse side effects. Something chiropractors know they should do…but don’t unfortuanately for many chiro victims.

I think most would agree that Doctors do everything they can to help heal and preserve quality of life. Many have experienced their incredible intervention. And modern medicine, unlike chiroquackery, learn and make changes as they go forward.

There will alwasy be risks associated with the field of medicine. But when something is proven to have no benifit and can cause life time disabilities ….well why take the risk having a neck twisted for example. DUH!

It must be tough for you these days. Would you like a glass of water? You seem to do a lot of choking on your foolish words.

There has not been a single documented entry of any beneficial treatment offered by Chiropractic in the last 100 years. Nothing new. Nothing to help further medical applications. Zippo.

Look up the New England Journal and check for yourself. This chiro organization boasts self proclaiming wonders yet has nothing new to offer under the sun.

The only reason people would see a Chiropractor on a regular basis ( 99% of the time ) would be if they are working an insurance angle. Chiros love car accident victims where they can bilk the system and of course it is alledged that the victims love seeing them because they can go as often as they wish….just show up! Then once the clients get their insurance pay out they are ….yup you guessed it; Miraculously Healed!

This really is just like shooting fish in a barrel.

Viox was pulled off the market due to safety concerns.

If the Chiropractic truly cared about safty issues, Upper Neck Maniulations would have been pulled 80 years ago.

[one word deleted for reasons of taste]

Sites like this are a wonderful way to spread the truth about some of the hair brained schemes that plague us today. You don’t have to look far to see one group or another trying to pull the wool over your face. I feel especially concerned about the elderly who are at times somewhat vulnerable to charlatans.

Years ago getting the message out and being able to warn others of possible harm would not have been possible.

So BIG THANKS for providing this site to the public. It means a lot.

Dear “Chiropractor”,

You say you are not aware of any chiro patients who have been hurt or killed by your “profession”? Here are a few for starters.

John Hoffman of Maryland. Died immediately following neck manipulation which was being utilized to treat his low back pain. He was 39 years old.

Kristi Bedenbaugh of South Carolina was being treated by a chiropractor for a “sinus infection” She died immediately after having her neck twisted. She was 24 years old and just about to get married. Her mother Roxanne buried her daughter in her wedding dress.

Thirty-five year old Californian Wendy Venegas also was treated with neck twisting for sinus headaches and died shortly thereafter leaving three small children without their mother.

Kimberly Strohecker of Pennsylvania was told by her chiropractor to stop taking her seizure medications because the “treatment” being provided by the chiro would “heal” her. When a friend called to tell the chiro that Kim was having constant seizures, the chiro responded by saying that it was just the evil “toxins” leaving her body. Kim died later that day from status epilecticus, a condition that would never have occurred had she not been convinced by a “doctor” to stop taking the medications prescribed by a qualified neurologist. By the way, the chiropractor in question, went to prison for this one.

When will you and your twisted colleagues pull your heads out of the sand. What you do is not only useless, it is dangerous. You can publish all the comic book “literature” you want and it does not change the reality that your “profession” is nothing more than a philosophical belief system based on the rantings of an uneducated grocer and magnetic healer. Are you still curing deafness these days?

I am friends with all the families of these above listed cases, so if you give me your phone number, I will have them call you personally. And by the way, we have death certificates for these and many more if you need more evidence.

Well, Bill, there you go again with your ‘secret information’! LOL!

Where were you when the Board of Examiners explored this issue in Connecticut at the request of the Chiropractic Health Care Profession? Since you are the chief chiro-hater representing the medical trade, and hair-apparent to Canadian circumcision expert Murray Katz, you could have at least provided him with something concrete to ramble about! At least he had the guts to appear, even though he sabotaged your diabolical plot. LOL!

Guess you didn’t know that it was entered into the official records of the State of Connecticut that the testimony of Murrrray Katzzz was deemed ‘not credible’. This was agreed upon and passed unanimously. Even Jean Rexford, the lay member who has clearly indicated that she was on your side, voted in favor of this. Nice one, Bill! LOL! The assistant attorney general also was there witnessing this whole thing!

Why didn’t you appear with your ‘secret files’ and clear up the whole thing for us, 007? It would have helped your team up there on the Hindenberg! LOL! But, alas, no Bill, no ‘secret information’. Oh, well.

That’s where the evidence was asked for, and you flunked.
Hindenberg…Boooommm!!

LOL!!

So, I guess you really don’t have any concern for the families who have lost these loved ones do you Vann/shep? How very sad, but not at all surprising. You should be really proud of yourself and your “profession”.

These comments by the likes of Chiropractor(s) /Vann / Shep, used to bother me Dr. Kinsinger. And if I were to be completely honest I guess they still do. But not to the same extent anymore as I now have a deeper understanding of the unfolding situation. My focus is on helping my wife recover for the most part. She was left struggling for life after a chiropractic neck adjustment.

I will say one thing. This type of mindless bantering and mocking tragic human loss by the chiros, only shows yet once again their true colors. And their extreme lack of compassion and basic respect is sickening.

So folks the next time you see a chiropractor and they warmly reach out their hand to greet you asking about your family…think about the above post. It speaks volumes.

It must be hard for them to accept what is rapidly happening to their chosen “profession”. Just like watching your ship in the middle of the storm sink swiftly beneath the waves of change. Relieved, you remember you have fabulous Insurance! There’s just one small problem….yup… NO life jackets on board.

Well put Troy, well put. Please know that many of us are wishing the best for you and your wife as you both continue the daily struggle of recovery from such a profound and completely senseless tragedy. That Shep/Vann and his other “doctor” friends find humor in cases such as yours and those listed previously is despicable at best. The time has come to put an end to their practice. At least you Canadians have pretty much shut them down by cutting off government reimbursement. Hopefully we will see some of these same successes her in the USA soon.

So Bill, is this your answer to why you failed to appear at the Connecticut hearings and why none of your ‘secret evidence’ was produced? They asked for it and the ‘huge’ list of so-called ‘victims’ never materialized and wasn’t entered into evidence? What were you waiting for? If you have one as you claim you have, why did you sit on it?

So your reply for being AWOL with your ‘secret list’ when it was needed the most by chiropractic ladies at the hearings is: ‘you chiros just don’t care’. Is that why you failed to produce any ‘evidence’ of this great “epidemic”?

In typical MD, ‘master debater’ fashion, you evaded the question like a squirrel crossing the road, except this time you got ssquished and let your team down.

So you couldn’t produce any ‘proof’ and the best reply you spit out is: ‘You guys don’t have any concern for the families?’

Hope you had a better explanation for the chiropractic ladies at the hearings and the ‘scores’ of so-called ‘victims’ why you let them down.

Is anybody else as baffled as I am about what is going on in this clowns obviously very small mind?

Why are you so concerned van about my non-appearance in Connecticut? Does the fact that I did not participate in those “hearings” somehow have any impact on the sad reality of the patients whose lives have been destroyed by you and your fellow witchdoctors? Are you willing to meet one on one with the mother of a dead young woman (we have many to choose from) and justify your continued belief in the BJ Hole in One Theory? Did you ever come up with a single published case report documenting a young person (under 45) suffering a vertebral artery dissection/stroke caused by anything other than a trip to a chiroquack?

Are you willing to debate me in an open forum as previously proposed by Dr. Farha?

In the 20s we were put in jail for practicing medicine without a license. Patients held protests and even demanded they were let in the cell to get treated. Then the Wilk case. Over the past 100 years the medical profession with all their money and support has tried everything they can to remove their biggest threat. We are still here. The govenor of Alanta just declared March as Chiropractic month.There are Chiropractors on staff for a large part of the Olympic traing camps.We are winning.
Bill, you and your little special interest group will do no good other than to fuel our fire to see more people.
You have a couple of supporter on here but compared to the millions of Chiropractic patients and supporters you are failing. Even your over dramatic stories won’t help. Your profession KILLS more people everyday than any other cause. Dont give me “some risk” Tell that to the 100s of thousands that bury there kids and family memebers due to avoidable mistakes.
I heard that you had a debate with a Chiropractor in the past. How did that work out for you?

Do you mean the non-practicing chiro that had to be flown in all the way from Oregon because nobody within 1500 miles would accept this challenge? Anyone who was there would tell you it went very well and nobody has been willing to step up to the plate since.

Bill, I think I can help you out here with your confusion.

You see, the Connecticut hearings was THE place for you to demonstrate your self-proclaimed skills as a master debater. You could have applied to appear, presented your evidence and helped your chiropractic ladies and your confused circumciser, Murky Katzzzz, since you have anointed yourself his hair-apparent.

So that is why I am skeptical of your life’s goal to debate a chiropractic doctor, yet you failed to show up when the game was on. You coulda’ been someone, Bill. You coulda’ been a contender. Epic failure, Bill, epic failure as they say today.

Even Kaiser soundly rebuked you and sent you packing, now wholeheartedly endorsing spinal manipulation and chiropractic health care for their members and even for their employees.

So now, in part thanks to your non-appearance in Connecticut, the Board of Examiners has duly noted and adopted into the official declaratory ruling for posterity (and future use by other governing boards) what everyone already knew, that your position is bogus and Murrray Katzzzz’ testimony is “not credible”.

Failure, Bill, epic failure.

I am just baffled by the lack of proof that all these people against chiropractic have. Show me the studies. Show me the proof. If you want the proof of the way the MD’s are killing people check out this link. Its from 2000, but it is what they say they are doing.
http://www.cancure.org/medical_errors.htm

Show me any proof of what you are saying chiropractors are doing. If the chiropractors are really as dangerous as you say, there must be studies to support it, or do you just make this stuff up. Most information I found also showed that many times the injuries due to “neck twisting” were done by MD’s and PT’s who aren’t trained properly to do it. So let see the proof. Quite spouting off all this bull and show some proof.

There are none so blind as though that can see….yet choose not to.

The chiropractors days are limited. In the meantime I guess we just have to accept that there are Dinosaurs still roaming our local Malls.

The AMAs first real leader, Morris Fishbein, never graduated from medical school and never practiced medicine a day in his life. His credintials were all political. His focus was simple: end medical freedom in the US. Any natural cure or holistic therapies that did not involve the sale of pharmaceuticals or the advancement of surgery were suppressed, maligned, and actively persecuted by Fishbeins attack dogs- the FDA and the FTC.
Today we have 911 neck, pateints first,and their Champion Bill Kinsinger. This isn’t about victims. Bill could care less about real patients. If he did he would have been a treating doctor not an anesthesiologist. This is all political and anyone without an agenda can see that.

Please help the audience understand my policial motives which you eluded to in your recent post. Am I trying to get rid of the competition? Could be as there has been an increase in pregnant women seeking chiropractic treatment for relief of pain during childbirth. Looks like I have been caught redhanded, perhaps I will give up and move on to another project. Good luck and congragulations on figuring out my ulterior motives You are indeed a wise individual, probably one of the chiros with a couple of years of junior college under your belt, likely a leader in the industry.

http://www.strokeawarenessandsupport.com

Congrats to SASA for this milestone achievement! ( See link above!!!)

And thanks you Dr. Kinsinger for continuing to be the voice of reason! Your efforts are not diminished by the few clowns on this blog who continue to dodge the tough questions. I think this is where the term “spin doctors” originated.

Please consider going under-cover again Doc and bring your video recorder along. They say a picture is worth a thousand words! I still laugh when I go back and listen to the chiropractors make fools of themselves on your previous caper.Truly sometimes life is stranger than fiction!

A team of medical doctors saved my wifes life. The nurses were wonderful!The care beyond anything we could have asked for.After spending multiple months in their care I can attest to the wonders of modern medicine.

It sure wasn’t the Chiropractor trying to save her…he caused the damage, then slid back under his rock. I do look forward to the day when such nonsense as upper neck manipulation stops once and for all.

It’s not enough for them to have pie in their face.They are used to being frowned upon. There needs to be real hard consequences for this type of mal- practice…BEFORE the next pointless injury. I know it’a coming but for us it will never happen fast enough. It breaks my wifes heart everytime she hears of another needless chiropractic injury.

Anyway, just thought it was time to say thanks again Doc!

We really do not beleive you have any political involvement. We are pretty sure your motives are strictly for money. We are not sure who’s funding you but it will eventually come out.
I see ABOUT 2-3 new patients per week who are still having back pain from the lovely epidurals. Keep stabbing!!!
I tell you what I am. I am the son of a man who has been on disability for over 15 years due to 3 surgeries to his neck and back. All totally unneccesay. At least the procedures were found harmful but strange enough the “MDS” were found not guilty. Save your sob stories for someone who might possibly beleive you invented dramas. I have seen so many injured and crippled people due to medical mistakes I couldn’t possibly list them all. I have been in practice over 17 years and I know at least 1000 chiropractors and I have yet to meet one of your “victims”

LOL….February 24,2011 Chiropractor states on this blog that he knows at least 10 Chiropractors.

Today, two weeks later he blurts out that he now knows 1,000!

Or are you saying that out of ONE THOUSAND chiropractors only ONE PERCENT of the Chiros you know make any decent money???

Either way… this is exactly why your word
means nothing.Your “facts” change faster than a new born babys diaper.

You are hillarious but like I tried to tell your fellow chiro compatriots, there is only room for the truth on this scientific based site.

Do you really think we will sit back and not challenge you?
Let this be a lesson learned.

PS: It’s a real shame you are not qualified or allowed to intern at any legitimate hospitals.

This would explain perhaps why you have not met any victims.

IT’S NO SURPRISE THAT I am not aware of ANY VICTIMS OF CHIROPRACTIC ABUSE EVER WANTING TO GO BACK FOR FURTHER ABUSE.

I KNOW THIS IS PERHAPS DIFFICULT FOR YOU TO GRASP BUT PLEASE CONTINUE TO READ AND LEARN FROM THE POSTS PROVIDED ABOVE.

I would also highly recommend you and your ten or one thousand buddies, whichever it is, read the book SPIN DOCTORS by Paul Benedetti and Wayne McPhail.Then, after you do a little more research come on back and we will try and enlighten your understanding on this very serious topic.

Be well!

Dear Mr. Chiropractor,

A week ago I provided you with the names of a few of the dead victims from my “secret list”. I offered to put you in touch with their families but you convieniently ignored my proposal but again today stated that you have never heard of an injury or death. Seems that you are suffering from selective reading, this is not surprising as most of your buddies have similar problems when confronted with the facts. If you change your mind, the offer stands. If you would prefer to speak with a living victim who did not die but suffers from profound and permanent neurologic injury we have many more of those and I am certain that they would be more than willing to speak to you if you have the guts to do it. Don’t be surprised if they are not as cordial as I am, most of them are a little on the angry side, Im sure you will understand. All you have to is give me a phone number where they can contact you and I will make it happen. Of course you could also do a quick literature search (if you know how) and find one of the dozens of case reports in the medical literature if you would prefer this type of “evidence”. Just type in CHIROPRACTOR and STROKE and you will be amazed at what pops up.

Regarding the large sums of cash that I am recieving for my work here, I don’t know exactly who is providing the funding but on a quarterly basis for the past 22 years I have been the recpient of massive deposits into a Swiss account that was opened for me in the name of “Mr. Big”. When you find the source let me know as my curiosity has grown over the years but I have not solved this mystery.

LMAO! Swiss Bank Account!
Thanks Mr. Big…I needed this!!!!!!

I see that I’m dealing with teenagers. Let’s review our notes. What I posted was that I personally knew at least 10 Chiropractors that make over 7 figures. How you confused that with I only knew 10 chiropractors is a mystery. Take your Adderall.
Bill you had your opportunity to produce these names and cases in a public fourum and you failed to produce as well as the others who actually attended. If these victims exist I’m sure you have shared this information with everyone who would listen. Why are you the only one making noise.
As far as your research. The same research journals show “scientific proof” that everything your profession does is safe. At least until people start dying. And they usually do. Have you ever acually read the New England Journal of medicine. Notice all the full page ads. Who do you think controls every paper in every journal. Your research is as tainted as your drugs but without them you wouldn’t have a job.
As for interning in a hospital. Why would I want to be part of the largest killing machine on the planet. Hospitals kill more people than any war in history.
I know it’s hard for some of of you lonely people to understand but I actually do know over 1000 chiropractors. Each one extemely passionate about helping as many people as they can understand tru health not the sick care that the mds are promoting.
Bill, you are the king of selective reading and side stepping anything you can’t defend. No one really believes you spend all your extra time chiro bashing becuse you truely care about saving people. Those who have listened to you speak say it is obvious there are ulterior motives.
Keep on. You are doing a wonderful job. Just ask Kaiser.
As the saying goes, “keep your friends close and your enemies closer” thats why I’m here. Please keep spouting. It gives me fuel for when I lecture.

Yes Mr. Chiropractor…go ahead…try your spin. You know what you said and now its accountability time. Sorry. So sorry….but nice try.
(Hey, why stop at a thousand…why not just say TEN THOUSAND!!!LOLOL) And I’ll bet you know ALL THE NAMES OF THEIR KIDS TOO ….right?

I think once again the chiropractor is trying to dodge is one simple word. It’s called NEEDLESS.
Let’s stop this spin in its tracks and get BACK ON TOPIC.

Yes folks, it is not fair to judge or compare what a real Doctor does when he accidentally injures a patient who he or she is treating for a REAL existing serious illness or life threatening injury. To compare such heroic and delicate procedures to a pointless and needless practice like neck twisting is just plain nuts. And most chiros use this rapid upper neck manipulation procedure to “treat” everything from ear infections to lower back pain.

What this says to me and to everyone reading this post is that chiropractors must be having a darn tough time economically. No wonder the numbers are dropping. I have seen several offices close up shop even where we live. This is common for chiros to stretch the truth about their incomes when surrounded by tons of negative press. Thanks to W5 and FOX NEWS, Global TV, The National Post, The Globe and Mail, Rabble, and just about every major newspaper publication I can think of, ETC, for some great coverage on the dangers of upper neck manipulations. And thanks for having some of the victims on National TV! To SASA and the folks at neck911.com the growing lists of organizations who are leading the charge, we are all deeply grateful. What brave and committed souls these people are!

Let us not forget the wonderful dedication and hours of free work that many real MD’s are doing around the world. To the 64 Neurologists who tried to warn the Government of Canada of the dangers of upper neck manipulation. (Kudos to the Canadian Government for realizing that Chiropractic is of little to no health benefit and for axing their subsidies.) They said they were sick and tired of seeing young people admitted to their stroke wards! I too have witnessed many Chiro victims and am sick that this ridiculous trade continues to profit from such a sham. They prey on the misinformed, the uninformed.

None of my friends see a Chiropractor anymore. But for them the decision was easy. All they have to do is look what has happened to our lives as a result of an Upper Neck Manipulation. Then the decision is easy.

And of course to every victim for standing up (if they can) and together making their voices unite against this barbaric and POINTLESS practice.

Over the last few years the internet has also helped to spread the word. I think people are tired of taking needless chances with their health. Stick to eating right and exercise. See you family certified MD on a regular bases. Don’t drink too much and if you do indulge try a little red wine instead of the hard stuff. And DO NOT SMOKE! Lastly. NEVER LET A CHIROPRACTOR TWIST YOUR NECK…NO MATTER WHAT HE CLAIMS THIS WILL MIRACULOUSLY HEAL.

For those who are sincere about learning the TRUTH about the joke that Chiropractic is just look up Edzard Ernst on the web. Or attend a lecture by Doctor Kinsinger or Dr. Murray Katz.

I think this Blog does an excellent job separating truth from fiction.

Dr. Kinsinger has provided names. They run.
Doctor Kinsinger has openly offered to debate …they hide.
Doctor Kinsinger provides hard science based facts…they spin.
Yup…pretty much sums things up.

If these entries by a chiropractor who actually does lecture ( and let’s get real here folks…does this sound like someone who might be capable of teaching???) and are signatory of someone with supposedly 17 years experience, then this speaks volumes as to the incompetence of the average chiropractor.

I mean no disrespect but if it walks like a duck….

A wise man once said “Even a fool is considered wise…if he keeps his mouth shut.”
Perhaps it’s time for Mr. Chiropractor to pause, unless of course he is prepared to show us scientific proof and cease from making such bizarre claims. I’m just too busy to entertain any more nonsense.

I prefer the cold hard facts and honesty to base my conclusions. And when I see someone deliberately skirting around the issues I grow very sceptical. I do believe we have given this chap enough rope although I had really hoped for more.

Maybe we can get someone “higher up the Chiro ladder” who teachers this stuff to pick up the challenge.

Still waiting…ZZZ.

Excellent summary Troy. And for you Mr. Chiropractor, if you are such an important lecturer, why are you afraid to let us in on your idenity? I am going to go out on a limb and guess that your initials are LTY.

Dear Dr. Bill Kinsinger,
I think it’s quite admirable that you post your name. Obviously you indeed have nothing to hide.

Courage to stand up for that which is right is a rare thing in any day and age. The fact that you are upfront and a no nonsense kind of Doctor speaks volumes. And of course this makes you a real gem of a person!

It also shows honesty and transparency. Something that the chiropractors so desperately lack.

Unfortunately I do not see Mr. chiropractor or many other chiros opting to reveal just who they really are. Most notably now that they have been shut down with scientific facts, etc.

Say Dr. Kinsinger why Bill in your opinion do you think that these chiros posting here are so afraid to square off with you in an open debate?

Seems they can’t even answer your questions without trying to switch topics.

I have come to the conclusion that they are simply desperate and apparently willing to sacrifice logic for wishfull thinking.

I think it may be because JUST like the Chiropractor Victims many are in tangled legal messes OF THEIR OWN that forbid them from disscussing things or saying who they are.

The chiropractors will remain in the dark shawdows hiding their identities however the nameless victims HERE will not stay silenced. MARK THIS DOWN FOLKS…IT IS ONLY A MATTER OF TIME.

i WOULD AGREE THAT WHENEVER I HEAR OF A SO CALLED chiro EXPERT spewing they are a SELF PROCLAIMED LEADER / LECTURER…well like most I PRETTY MUCH TUNE OUT WHEN THEY DON’T EVEN HAVE THE BACK BONE TO POST THEIR NAME.

Sorry but there are just too many posters out there who spout things out and never hand over the needed proof.

Conusumer reports : Chiropractic # 1 for back pain over all medical procedures.
Dr. Oz show : Chiropractor adjust a audience member to show the benefits and safety of Chiropractic.
Japan stops vaccinating children due to too many deaths.
You all are right. We are such a thing of the past.
Govenor Schwarzenegger just gave a speach and said everyone in the world should be under Chiropractic care and He and his entire family has been under Chiropractic care for years with great benefit.
ChiroVictim, Baffled, Troy ? It’s interesting that you all are so concerned who I am when the rest of you are hiding your identities. Bill I hear thru the grapevine that you are notorious for harrassing doctors at their homes and offices. Nice try though. And no. My initals are not lty. If you want full disclosure Troy give us your full name and your state you live in. Better yet give us the full name of the Chiropractor who supposedly harmed your wife.
Bill I’m sure there are many who would love your #. Please post it here. I will direct those who would love to speak to you to this link.
As for the debate. Bill was debated before. The exact words from someone who was there,He had his a– handed to him. But it didn’t change anything. He still spouts lies and fabricated “scientific proof”
Heres what it boils down to:
People only go to a medical doctor if they absolutley have to or think they do.
People go to Chiropractors because they want to. They drive hours and pay cash because they know the benifits of Chiropractic and they have learned first hand the dangers and uneffectiveness of the medical approach.
I’m not anti medical. My closest friend since grade school runs an ER here in orange county. He went into family medicine and hated it. He said all he was dealing with was people that the previous dr gave too many drugs to. They were all addicted. Now he does emergency medicine and rerfers to Chiropractors all the time.
Like I said before , keep it comming. I love the attitude.

usatoday.com children find a new way to adjust. I hope you all go to this site and read it. Bill I hope you don’t lose too much sleep.

Last stats I saw said less than 10% of general public utilized chiro care. Do you wish to argue with this fact? I would not consider that as overwhelming enthusiasm for your “profession”. And if I am such an easy target, why don’t you set up a debate between the two of us in your backyard in Orange County. I’ll even pay my own way.

Oh PLEASE say yes mr. chiropractor…please…pretty please!!!!!!!

OK…I think I get it.
What was I thinking! Chiropractors can’t even spell a simple word like BENEFIT let alone understand it’s meaning.

And this is someone who “teaches”? Sorry….but your words betray you my friend.

It’s about as clear as mud.

Let me know the next time the “Govenor” ( Think you mean Governor ) is giving a “SPEACH” (That would be speech for the rest of us I think) and I’ll be there to enlighten him. Perhaps we can let MR. Muscles polish my new wheelchair and give Arnold a real work out.

Hmm…I wonder how many years body builders have taken YEARS off their lives by doing hormone drugs and anobolic steroids? Yes…most that are at the competing level NEVER touch drugs…or do they?

Sorry…but if I want advice on obtaining great health I’ll ask a qualified Doctor. No juice monkeys for this guy.

Got to run…I’m reading an article which details the many dangers of rapid upper neck manipulation.

Statistics are a funny thing but one thing remains certain: YOU CAN NOT CALCULATE RISK WHEN THERE IS LITTLE TO NO BENEFIT. And to put your life in harms way when there are safe alternatives….well you do the math folks.

Have a SAFE and wonderful week friends!

Troy you must be a professional comedian. You are a master of insults. Great job. You must also be a typing teacher and an english major. How impressive. You are one of the reasons I keep checking in. Where else can we be entertained by such a multi talented indviduale.
Bill, lets say we have our debate. Then what? What do you wish to prove. No one is backing down. You have your medical/pharm research. We have patients we treat everyday. Patients and conditions we have been treating for years. It isn’t possible for you to convince one of us what we do is dangerous let alone non benificial. We live it everyday.
As far as the 10%. I agree. But if you take the number of Chiropractors and divide it into the number of people there are it is easy to see that even a 5% increase would overwhelme most offices. We need more Chiropractors. I’m doing my part. I now have 37 patients who are either practicing, in Chiropractic school or getting thier prerequisites. They can’t wait to be doctors of Chiropractic. From personal experience their lives have been changed. Because of how I conduct myself and the life I lead they want to do what I do.
Curious, how many kids do you have that want to be like you?

Chiropractor…I’m glad you find all this so amusing. I guess it’s true what they say after all about chiros.

Yes, when a “teacher” or any learned individual sends out emails and bogs like yours which are constantly full of spelling errors, it sends out some clear signals they say.
Clearly this amounts to yet again a complete disregard to even pretend to portray a professional image.

It also shows ignorance to things like “spell check”. Indicates a certain willingness to be lazy and general life disorder. And of course either limited education or an inability to comprehend Basic English.

That’s ok folks ….we can forgive the spelling mistakes. And I really like Arnold….his cousin sold me a beautiful denim jacket with a leather collar. (Arnold had a business interest in this clothing line). It has a LARGE GORILLA embroidered on the back holding a bended weight bar. Also gave me some terrific photos of a younger Arnold. This was back when Mr. Olympia was driving his big Army Hummer. Cigar and all!

When you come out of your dream world and want to MAN UP and debate a real Doctor, please let us know. ( YAWN)

I wouldn’t pass up an opportunity to watch Dr. Kinsinger in action. Like this Blog, he would destroy what little credibility you fellows have left.

The days of twisting people’s necks and trying to convince the sheep that this practice is in some way healthy for them are coming to an end…THANK GOODNESS!

Isn’t it time you just accepted medical science standards and folded your pup tents?
The parties over.

Arnold will always be Mr. Olympia in my books! Hence I always refer to him as Mr. Olympia. No one to date has ever accomplished a seven time title record as far as I am aware.
When I met up with some of his family connections he had already passed the Iron Pumping torch and was big into the movie push. He was commanding top dollars and eventually exercised his options to take a 15% part of the gate. Nice move!

My personal pictures span several decades of his achievements thanks to a lucky connection.

Still, knowing what I do know I would NOT ask him for advice about the value of Chiropractic. On the other hand if I wanted advice on how to improve my Bench Press form….well he would be the man!

Arnold has had heart issues and has been in several motorcycle accidents over the years. Thankfully the REAL MEDICAL DOCTORS were able to piece him back together again and again and again. He has admitted to past steroid use on record claiming these were legal at the time and I believe they were.

I think it’s interesting how chiropractors grasp to anything (Or name drop) or anyone of significance they have treated in the past. Anything that might help their fading reputation of validity.As if this proves anything LOLOL!!! But you have given me a great idea….stay tuned folks!

As for Arnold he is no longer a Governor. Look for him in another movie roll very soon. Yup…it’s back to acting for the Big Guy.

And it turned out to be a beautiful day after all.

Hey Doctor Kinsinger, if you do ever get one of these chiropractors to take you up on your challenge, perhaps we could join you? It takes us a lot longer for us to get around these days given the extent of the chiropractic injuries but we would make every effort to be there.

We have a number of additional surgeries coming up but I think the chiropractor has a good idea. By having several victims with you who were in previous perfect health, standing by your side and by letting us share with others the horror of our situations it would speak volumes.

Given the vast majority of these chiropractors injuries happen to young people, this is especially significant and draws immediate concern. The fact that the neck twisting is totally unscientific and can produce life time disabilities the optics are very unsettling. The fact that the neck twisting shouldn’t have been done and that there is no benefit just solidifies the ridiculousness of what some continue to do,

Of great importance would be for the young and upcoming chiropractors who are new to the trade to hear your guidance and knowledge on this important matter. They need to see first hand the results of what can happen when this needless and senseless barbaric practice goes wrong.

I think because of the low education requirements and the back yard style of entry, many feel chiropractic is a great way to get the title “Doctor”. (Next we will have Doctors of Slinky Repair). We even have Furniture Medics running around town in used ambulances. They will come and fix you broken chair. LOL Oh well, at least they aren’t out there ripping peoples Vertebral Arteries and causing STROKES!!

My advice to Mr. Chiropractor: Turn in your chiropractor badge, buy some good quality clamps, glue, wood screws and a used ambulance. We will all be a whole lot happier and sleep just a little better knowing you have done the right thing my friend. And you won’t have to look long for legitimate business as many us have wobbly chairs.+

Thanks for listening and have a great day!

Dear Mr. Chiropractor:

I cannot thank you enough for making my “job” so easy. Like your buddies Vann/Shep and others you hand “our side” all the ammo we need to make you look like fools.

For instance, the following quote from your most recent post is very telling:

“You have your medical/pharm research. We have patients we treat everyday. Patients and conditions we have been treating for years. It isn’t possible for you to convince one of us what we do is dangerous let alone non beneficial. We live it everyday.”

What you are saying here is that you, like most of your colleagues are not interested or impressed with the scientific evidence. Rather, you know in your heart that “chiropractic works” and you have no need for all that scientific nonsense. Since you don’t actually “treat” any specific disease process or ailment but rather rid the body of those pesky “subluxations” you are always successful. It is really a pretty good system if you think about it. Your predecessors identified a “condition” (vertebral subluxation) which in fact does not exist, then claimed that the only people who could locate these “subluxations” were chiropractors, and then built an entire industry around this concept. You certainly do deserve credit for your PR work, convincing ten percent of the population that their “health” depends on the magic that you do with your hands despite the fact that there is virtually zero evidence that you are helping anyone, pretty impressive.

The problem sir is that the whole thing is simply a sham, a con, nothing more than a fairy tale. Reminds me a lot of the story of the Emperor’s New Clothes. The chiropractic vertebral subluxation does not exist. It has never been seen with any type of imaging technology, it has never been identified during surgery, it has never been seen at autopsy. It is just not there. If ten chiropractors identified the same patient in succession, they would all find subluxations, but most likely not in the same location.

So keep telling yourself that what your doing is meaningful, all natural, and safe. But at the end of the day, the Emperor has no clothes, and the patients who have suffered life altering or life ending injuries will not stop to your industry is shut down for good.

Troy, if one of these clowns ever does step up to the plate I hope you and other victims/families will be able to attend. I certainly would welcome your attendance. Hope you and your wife are well. I cannot imgaine what the two of you have been thru following her devastating and senseless injury.

Some free advice;

You could just as easily ask “Why are the Chiropractors so sloppy with how they use language and spelling?”

If your browser is telling you that you are not spelling a word properly, by highlighting and underlining it in Red there is a reason. By being too lazy to fix it, you are clearly sending a blatant message about not giving a crap about things. Perhaps you are too lazy to spell a word properly because it is too long?

It’s not a matter of being anal retentive. It is a matter of expecting you to respect the people you are asking for help. You have no right to give anyone an attitude if they are taking their time to help you. The least you can do is show them enough respect (and show yourself enough respect) to spell things properly, use proper grammar, and take the time to phrase your question details with some thought. No one has to help you. No one has to answer your question. Would you prefer to be ignored? Would that be better?

Again Mr. Chiropractor in the future please show some respect for yourself and take the time to write things out properly.

And do some research before posting claims. By dodging Doctor Kinsingers questions and hurling insults truly this will get you nowhere.

Let’s all get this simple message out there!

Hello Doctor Kinsinger!
As usual you are on topic and have nailed the chiropractors on so many levels. THANK YOU!

Yes, you can be assured that once we are up to traveling we will gladly attend any such “debate”. We have read so much about you and would be honoured! Although it’s tough to say how much more my wife will regain we do know that she is VERY determined to get back some thing that resembles a quality of life existence. She is a fighter!

Most Doctors have commented that it because she was a non smoker and kept herself in superior physical condition that she has progressed this far! Let alone survived! Both vertebral arteries were damaged immediately following a neck adjustment and she spent a year in the Hospital. As you know a brain stem stroke is as bad as it gets as far as strokes go. (I was shocked to learn there are over TWENTY different types associated with chiropractic neck manipulation!)Fortunately all the numerous MRI, CT scans and x-rays and angio results clearly show what happened. Thank goodness for MODERN MEDICINE!

I have so many things that I want to share with everyone but for now these things must wait. Once the past events which have brought us to where we are today are shared. And become available for all to read, I am confident that we will indeed see the change needed. All in good time as they say.

Thank you Doctor Kinsinger for all you do in the name of safety and helping to spread the word on the dangers of Chiropractic Neck Manipulations. Your dedication to educating and enlightening the world is to be commended.

We appreciate reading your excellent answers to all who dare to step up to the plate on this Blog. And thanks again for the offer. Let’s hope that someday a chiropractor will have the gonads to put their money where their mouth is.

One of the most important studies showing the positive effect Chiropractic care can have on the immune system and general health was performed be Ronald Pero, Ph.D, cheif of cancer prevention research at New York’s Prevention Medicined Institute and Professor of medicine at New Yourk University. Dr. Pero measured the immune systems of people under Chiropractic care as compared to those in the gerneral population and those with cancer and other serious diseases. In his initial three year study of 107 individuales who had been under Chiropractic care for five years or more, the Chiropractic patients were found to have a 200% greater immune competence than people who had not received Chiropractic care, and a 400% greater immune competence than people with cancer or other serious diseases. The immune system superiority of those under Chiropractic care did not diminish with age.
Dr. Pero stated: “When applied in a clinical framework, I have never seen a group other than this Chiropractic group to experience a 200% increase over normal patients. This is why it is so dramatically important. We have never seen such a positive inprovement in a group.

A recent edition of the Concord Monitor included an ad from Dr. Stephanie Mills, chiropractor. In the ad she states, “Research shows that chiropractic can double your immune capacity naturally and without drugs.” She references her source as a Dr Ronald W. Pero. She, however, does not provide citation for her claim. The reason she does not do this: There is no proof.

The research does not exist. In fact, the Federal Trade Commission in 1995 ruled against Dr. Tedd Koren, a chiropractor, from using claims from Pero in his brochure.

Pero never published his work. He did try, however, in a chiropractic journal, but even they were skeptical of the claims.

Dr. John Triano, wrote, “The purported results of enhancement in immunological status through chiropractic has never been published by Dr. Pero in either the chiropractic or medical peer-reviewed and indexed literature.” He further goes on to say that “any of us who have research experience would be aggressively pursuing publication of our work that could effectively make such a claim” (Dynamic Chiropractic, Vol. 28, Number 17).

The importance of vaccinating your children cannot be overstated. Irresponsible and fraudulent claims by Mills should not be part of your decision-making process.

I will be contacting the state chiropractic board with this letter and ad. Mills can believe all she wants of the benefits of chiropractic care. She however cannot present as fact false information. I would hope the board will take appropriate action against Mills.

MIRNO PASQUALI

TIP FOR Mr.CHIROPRACTIC aka CIRCUS CLOWNS:
It’s always important to do your research BEFORE posting on this great site.

Or,if you wish to continue being corrected I will try and find the time. I would appreciate a bigger challenge though if at all possible.

Seriously folks is this all the chiros have? Is this as good as it gets? This guy lectures???

The more this guy posts the better we look.
Just seems too easy.

Nice work Troy. Ouch!!!!

Troy, this was published and it is credible.

[majority of this comment deleted for taste concerns by blog creator]

This is a reminder that personal attacks will not be allowed–it detracts from the purpose of this blog. I will delete them as they come in or I will edit them.

Bryan Farha

Bryan, you only delete the ones by the pro chiropractic. I dont see you deleting any of Troys

EXECUTIVE PRIVILEGE

I have read through this blog from start to present and must say it has valid points on both sides of the fence. I am now semi-retired and I have been in practice (as a chiropractic physician) for over 16yrs having owned/operated several multidisciplinary clinics (MD/DC/PT/LMT) with much success. I also spent time working as a DC (alongside DOs and MDs)in an ER with my scope limited to musculoskeletal injuries (typically work-related). I would not argue that risk does in fact exist with upper cervical manipulation and that opting to use such treatment is not without risk. i would however ask for clarification as to when the reference to this risk is cited, is it refering specifically to CMT or to cervical manipulation in general. there are obvious differences b/t CMT, OMT, and the rudimentary joint mobilization done by others such as LMTs and PTs. if referring to cervical manipulation in general then it is difficult to single out CMT. with regard to the documented cases of serious injury/death, post cervical manipulation, how many were in fact from CMT alone? I am not educated in this matter and to be honest have not researched the studies so I am merely asking the question for clarification as it is not accurate to group CMT with OMT, PT joint mob, or any other type of “cervical manipulation”. if that be the case, then does this infer that my son is performing cervical manipulation when he stretches his neck and tries to “pop” it? where is the distinction between the various methods so as to properly look at CMT? I for one agree (as previously stated) there can be a risk and yes i do make it known to patients and yes when apropriate, CMT to the cervical region is a treatment option.

for the record, i do not claim to cure anything and i help alot of patients live healthier better lives every day.

OK. I am glad you acknowledge there is risk involved with CMT.

Perhaps you can clarify something you said however:
1. When is it appropriate in your opinion to use this procedure?

2. You claim you do not cure anything then please kindly explain to me what you are treating and why?

3. How exactly do you inform your patients of the risk or death or stroke?

4. As a practicing DC what do you carry for Mal Practice insurance? Specifically how much would a patient receive from your Insurance were there to be an unfortunate injury? Example: A devastating stroke involving paralysis or death. I ask this because you mention that you are a physician and I am well versed on what MD’s must carry.

5. You use the example of your son adjusting his own neck. Are you actually implying that the number of recorded Chiropractor injuries could be incorrect? That self inflicted injuries are more common?

6. Have you ever wittnessed anyone perform a rapid upper neck manipulation on themselves?

I have researched this subject extensively and understand that the VAST majority of Rapid Upper Neck Manipulation injuries are courtesy of the Chiropractic community.

Again, I am pleased to finally hear a Chiropractor admitting to the risks of Upper Neck Twisting.And as a chiropractor victim, I only wish more would confess its dangers.

1. each case is an individual, simple as that.
2. no doc cures anything regardless of specialty they simply provide a “tool” via PT, CMT, OMT, a pill, an IM injection, etc in expectation that the body will then utilize said tool to fix/improve itself to the best of its ability. as for what i treat; primarily patients with musculoskeletal injuries including non surgical low back pain. as for why; obvious, my clinics get results via the MD/DC/PT/LMT team effort. a patient has a problem you attempt to help that patient eliminate the problem you dont just treat a symptom and expect success.
3. signed consent at time of initial intake forms right along with hippa forms etc. and again verbal when/if cervical adjustment becomes option.
4. 1M/3M which is standard malpract via NCMIC for chiros
5. i am indeed saying that is possible. again to say simply cervical manipulation is not specific enough IMO; who performed the cervical manipulations, all DCs some DCs no DCs, etc as i previously stated, many professions can and do perform cervical manipulation
6. In a fashion, I have. an 18yo male, football player on field during practice, using own hands (as i have seen many young athletes do) and trying to “pop” neck. quadriplegic.

Watch this clip. It just hit the U-Tube Site.
Kinda says it all.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyu1ZOcJWnQ

This is what I suspected. Up here in Canada the Chiropractors are also under insured. It’s a disaster and a complete joke. (But their days are numbered)

Can you just imagine getting your neck twisted an becoming a Quadra or Tetraplegic?

2 – 3 million is peanuts. You would end up with half that to survive on after Lawyers fees, if you were “lucky”. Most settle out of court because of pressure from their financial strain. I carry this on my car insurance policy for Pete’s sake!

Just do a little research and you’ll see that it takes millions just to provide long term 24 hour care to one of these unfortunate victims. As for lost income, pain and suffering…..forget it. These numbers DON’T work.

So, while it’s great that you talk to your clients about the risks, I’m betting they have NO IDEA what you carry for coverage.

You see that’s just one of the problems I have with all this. If an MD injures you, at least you don’t have to worry about “limits” on their mal practice insurance. (The chiros do brag however about how low their premiums are!)

I don’t think chiropractors should be allowed to call themselves Doctors for this misleading fact alone.

it is what it is. obviously you have an opinion and the right to voice such. I do not make laws i simply follow them. your second to last statement shows clearly your primary issue, you want to make sure there is enough cash to cover the injury should it ever happen and i personally dont know how much is enough; 1M, 3m, 40M, whats quadriplegia worth? I dont know. sounds like your argument is better applied to lobbyists and lawmakers not directed at a singluar profession. if the emotion is to be taken out of this blog and the specific topic it began with adhered to then nothing presented so far makes much sense. first of all, who cares what DD palmer did or how he did it, it was over 100 yrs ago. secondly i have noticed such digression tothe topic of lack of science based evidence and such. well that opens up an entirely diff can of worms now doesnt it? science based evidence eh, well lets apply that protocol/prerequisite to some other things in our world and see how that measures up; how about we start with religion, how about we go to the science based evidence as to how life began? my personal favorite is the quatum theory of evolution however key word being theory, no proof…yet oh wait, there is proof at leasrt i think so, i mean we are here on oour keyboards debating aren’t we, so there must be proof of life. so to apply this bunk to the principle of chiropractic, just because of the lack of current science based evidence simply means that as of YET we cannot fully explain how or why but the FACT that it works is irrefutable, period. if this is arguable, then by all means feel the right to do so but also get your blog on regarding theological beliefs, the origins of life itself and of course manay other healthcare aspects including but not limited to many allopathic procedures. now that i myself have digressed from this topic and i appologize, i think i have stated my piece regarding the true topic and i will summarize: i do feel that cervical manipulation has risk as does any and all medical procedures. I also do feel that the point to make is that (staying on topic here) this applies to ALL practitioners who do in fact utilize cervical manipulation (and despite what this Mr kinsinger professes, i work with many DOs and every one of them do in fact utilize such when warranted or unless i am present as they acknowlegde that i am more qualified to render CMT vs their OMT in most cases). with said risk being agreed upon, i do also feel all doctors using said procedure should in fact discuss risks with patients prior to moving forward. ( i do recall an above post stating that the medical profession does in fact offer proper explaination of risks for their drugs by way of package inserts and i will say, give me a break, to say that is what you stand behind as your defense as far as patient education and informed consent of risks involved is utter BS and insulting. there is no MD or DO that takes the time to ensure the patient reads those inserts or goes over the insert with the patient so that the risks are understood, they leave it to the pharmacist. I cannnot tell you how many times my father, a pharmacist, had to catch a bad script due to the doctor writing it without even paying attention to the other meds he/she had already placed the patient on. i myself have even caught my MDs/DOs on occasion and brought to their attention hey are you sure this is good with what we are already giving our patient(s) and fortunately for the patient i did so.

risk is everywhere and the topic is about risk vis cervical manipulation. yes it exists and yes it has a place in healthcare and to single out one profession for the risks is ridiculous regardless of your personal experience as there are more than one profession that render said procedure.

well, i have repeated myself enough and i am sure made not much difference. so, i shall leave this blog and get back to my life as a chiropractic physician praticing with MDs and DOs and helping improve lives on a daily basis. i love what i do and i would change it for the world and i personally and more than confident in my abilities as well as those of my collegues and our staff to ensure that the risk of injury via cervical manipulation in our offices never occurs.

i am sorry you or a loved one has been a victim of such injury. in my opinion, no amount of money if worht sacrificing. oh and if spelling and grammar have been a bit off, i apologize, i dont use spell check and thats what my staff nurse is for. now i am off to a local hospital to discuss how we shall begin integrating my services into their facility.

God bless you all and I hope peace is found by those of you who need it.

Thanks for the speech. I do believe we are now seeing the real “Sampson!” I love the English language. Especially when ones own self motivated words betray their hidden agenda.

It starts with your blatant disrespect for DOCTOR KINSINGER is obvious. Hence I can no longer feel empathy for your dying trade. It’s Dr. Kinsinger …NOT mr.kinsinger. Yes…it’s so revealing what simple words express within ones self. Nice try though!

As for being on topic…the unanswered 64000 dollar question remains; how do you measure risk when there are alternative remedies to stiffness other than an upper neck twist which carries with it proven risk by your own admission?

And such alternative measures Heat Pack/Cold Pack….simple waiting it out) would carry NO RISK of STROKE. The math is easy folks, you can’t.

So the question expands into WHY the hec do chiropractors do this IN THE FIRST PLACE???Well gang, think about it…if you take the rapid neck manipulation out of the Chiropractor handbook what should we call them? Nothing would be left to define or separate them from so many other health care service providers already doing everything and more than they do. Yup….it’s called extinction.

I’ll agree on one thing you said, namely that there is NO AMOUNT of money that could ever begin to compensate for the unnecessary horror Chiropractors are causing.
The fact that the vast majority if not all of Chiropractors are vastly under-insured and your lack of concern speak volumes to the inner character. Yes….you and most other bone twisters carry the bare minimum because…now wait for it….because you are not required to carry adequate insurance. And this somehow makes it right? Hmm.

As for the last 100 years do tell us what the Chiropractic community has contributed the Medical Community? Zippo!
And speaking of the Palmers the CCO is well aware of the crises brewing. You, like most chiropractors are HOSTILE to the notion of a science –based practice that focuses on musculoskeletal problems leaving behind the stigma of the Palmers. And I quote the former vice president of the body policing the largest group of chiropractors in the Country; “CCO is not out to get subluxation- based chiropractors. Subluxation –based, limited care or full spectrum care, the CCO could not care less, as long as members comply with all CCO standards of practice, policies and guidelines.”

Yup seems about right. The statement by this fellow is astonishing. That they could “not care less”. And these are the guys in charge???

A 1993 survey of Canadian chiropractors by the National Board of Chiropractors found that 27.4 percent used homeopathic remedies/ 31 percent used applied kinesiology/ 66.3 percent used acupressure/meridian therapy. Numerous studies continue to demonstrate that CMCC students form an interest and favour unscientific ideas much like you Sampson. (Again by your own admission). So don’t go blowing your horn about science based proof. Argh!

As one author stated so well” this would sound benign enough unless you do indeed understand just what their philosophy is!”
And I quote; “It’s an outdated, irrational dogma, a set of unscientific ideas and principles handed down as a form of divine wisdom form the founders of chiropractic.

God Bless
T & C

By the way, I’m not sure where you were going with the Evolution thing. To compare chiropractic to a religion is again ridiculous.

I do believe in God as creator and would agree that there does come a point for us to have faith in those things not yet seen. Chiropractic subluxations is a whole different can of worms indeed! As with religion we all must eat the meat and throw away the bones.

There has never ever been a book so attacked as the word of God. Yet , there it remains today even after they literally put so many before us to death for defending its contents.
Despite being written over such a diverse and lengthy time period and events detailed by so many different writers here it prevails. So Sampson…please do not confuse blind faith with willful ignorance.

Chiropractic has been around for about one hundred years. And over this time frame it has yet to contribute anything to modern science or medicine.Hence I have no problem accepting that there is a divine creator but you have not proven to me that chiropractic is a validated health care alternative. In fact the more I read about chiropractic the less I am impressed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tjq-L-bbUIA&NR=1

The above short presentation will touch your heart. If it does not….check for pulse.

Powerful. Moving.
Thank you to the creators of this excellent presentation!

The chiropractors always deny harming people.

They will have a tough time spinning this one!

Wow, I was away all weekend and it looks like I missed some good blogging. Troy has done a great job addressing the concerns of “Dr.” Sampson so I wont attempt to completely get into this debate but I do want to offer a few comments.

First of all, I do appreciate Sampson’s acknowledgment that upper neck twisting is dangerous. Thank you sir for that.

Regarding the relevance of DD Palmer, sampson and I will have to disagree. Chiropractic was “invented” by the infamous Palmer in 1895 without and scientific basis and the practice continues virtually identical to Palmer’s teaching over a hundred years later. It is nothing more than a philosophical belief system, not a health care profession.

Now about your contention that no practitioners “cure” anything, you have got to be kidding me. Osteopathic and allopathic physicians cure ailments and diseases on a regular basis. Examples would include infectious disease processes, numerous cancers, congenital heart defects, and fractures. Many other ailments are not necessarily “cured” but rather controlled. Examples would be diabetes, high blood pressure, epilepsy, and coronary artery disease.

Hi Doctor Kinsinger,
Yes…it’s alwasy refreshing to hear a chiropractor admit to the dangers of upper neck manipulation.

Kinda makes my day!

My husband and I divorced over Religious reasons. He thought he was God and I didn’t.

Dr. Kinsinger, re your comment;
“Now about your contention that no practitioners “cure” anything, you have got to be kidding me. Osteopathic and allopathic physicians cure ailments and diseases on a regular basis. Examples would include infectious disease processes, numerous cancers, congenital heart defects, and fractures. Many other ailments are not necessarily “cured” but rather controlled. Examples would be diabetes, high blood pressure, epilepsy, and coronary artery disease.”

THANK YOU FOR CALLING Mr. Chiropractor on this! All too often the chiros blurt out similar nonsense and they don’t get corrected.

Troy, I should have added that chiro’s on the other hand regularly “boast” that they don’t attempt to cure or claim to cure any disease. In fact they merely identify “vertebral subluxations” and then after removing them allow the bodies inherent recuperative powers aka “innate intelligence” to do the real curing. It is really a pretty clever scheme if you think about it, especially given that it has served them well for 116 years (again going to the relevance of DD Palmer). You don’t over promise by intentionally declaring that you are not planning to cure the ailment of the day, you instead claim to be treating a phenomenon(vertebral subluxation) that amazingly has never been identified by any “real doctor”. Since many people seeking chiro care suffer from musculoskeletal ailments which are frequently self-limiting(they go away on their own with a bit of time) as soon as the patient feels better it is of course the removal of subluxations and innate intelligence. And since “subluxations” have a nasty habit of returning on a regular basis you convince the patient that they had best come by the office on a regular and frequent basis FOREVER, in order to maintain optimum health. And while you are at it, bring grandma and the kids and as many neighbors as you can cram in the minivan. Sound familiar anybody????

So true Dr. kinsinger.
Sampsin stated he had read all the blogs posted here. Obviously his words must be put in question yet once again.

I agree with you 100%. The chiropractors are always touting this card.

I think I have figured out why they fear going up against you in a live debate.

Thanks again Dr. Kinsinger for pointing this out!

Just trying to keep them honest is quite the challenge!

My heart goes out to the people of Japan.
Thank goodness for dedicated medical Doctors and Nurses who are aiding in this sad unfolding delema.

God be with them.

I think you’ve a pretty great Thought about CHIROPRACTIC: An OKC M.D.’s Warning.. Thanks for the providing these point… Nice post..

???

Alan H. Bragman D.C.
“As an expert witness in the field of chiropractic negligence for almost twenty years, I have been involved in more than 800 cases throughout the United States, Puerto Rico and Canada. Of the cases reviewed, more than 250 involved allegations of a cerebrobasilar injury caused by chiropractic cervical manipulation. In all but a few of these situations, the chiropractor violated the standard of care and a causal relationship to the treatment and resulting injury was apparent. A stroke, arterial dissection or other vascular damage associated with chiropractic treatment is a tragic, life-altering situation for all parties involved.

Vertebrobasilar accidents account for just over five percent of the malpractice suits filed each year, but they are among the most serious. These injuries frequently result in permanent neurological deficit, psychological trauma, quadriplegia and/or death. Many of these lawsuits result in settlements well in excess of a million dollars. This alone is a compelling reason to maintain higher limits of liability coverage.

Overall, the chiropractic profession has downplayed the risk of stroke through cervical manipulation. Early studies and opinions felt that the risk was minimal, and that cervical manipulation has not been conclusively proven to cause vascular accidents. More recent information and studies suggest the risk of stroke due to cervical manipulation is still very low, but higher than past information would indicate.”
———————————————————-

* The more I research and find information like the above post, the more my hope is restored that injuries from neck manipulations will become a thing of the past.
Troy

Considering this above quoted statement alone,it`s hard to imagine where Sampson got the hairbrain idea that they ( chiropractors) have never injured anyone.

Talk about denial.

I learned of another victim today, extremely sad story. When will these devastating injuries be stopped? We have to do a better job of spreading the word, getting out the message that to let a chiropractor touch your neck is no different than playing Russian roulette.

Hi Dr. Kinsinger,
This is so tragic. Everytime we hear of another needless neck manipulation causing great harm , we are sickened.

Expect much in the way of media exposure this year. I am not at liberty to go into detail but the best is yet to come.

We pray that this chiropractic victim will receive some comfort in knowing that we along with many others are thinking of her. And that we will not rest until justice is served.

Lets hope at least that this clown had decent mal-practice insurance. Not that any amount of financial compensation would ever be enough.

Just so sad.

Chiropractors are a lot like an honest mechanic I just found. He honestly admits he can’t fix anything.

Just like most any other kind of doctor, Brad.

I hold MD’s in the highest level of respect.
I can not say the same for this group who identifies themselves as chiropractors.

Doctors saved my wifes life. Period.
End of discussion.

Brad???

Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.
- Aldous Huxley

We met with a well known Neurologist two days ago at a leading trauma center up in Canada.
What he said gave us reason to smile!
And I quote;
“We are thrilled to report to you that there has been a dramatic decrease in Chiropractic related strokes over the last couple of years (2008 / 2009 and 2010).
We cheerfully anticipate that this trend will continue now that the media has alerted the masses to the very real dangers of chiropractic upper neck manipulation.”

Yes friends, the push for common sense and scientific based medicine is breaking down the walls of chiropractic shame.

But despite this encouraging news I personally still feel it is important to continue spreading the word. Until the Governments put a stop once and for all to this fallacy they call Neck Twisting and the Subluxation Theory….there can be no rest.

There were two more victims just in the last couple of months who yet once again did not require their necks to be manipulated and are now wrecked for life.
One is now blind …the other paralyzed.

ROCK HILL – — A jury ordered a Rock Hill chiropractor to pay more than $800,000 after evidence showed fraudulent records may have been created to conceal part of a woman’s treatment performed hours before she was hospitalized.

Cheryl Chandler sought relief for minor back pain from a chiropractor after seeing a family physician in June 2006. The Rock Hill woman, then 53, said she had an aching pain that continued down her leg.

Chandler said she heard a chiropractor could provide some relief, so she went to see Narry Beaver of Beaver Chiropractic and Spinal Rehab in Rock Hill.

“However, after my first treatment, I was feeling a little worse,” she said. “I had difficulty sleeping.”

Because Chandler was in pain, she had her husband take her for a follow-up treatment the next day.

Hours after that treatment, she was admitted to the hospital with “intractable pain” and given morphine. An MRI revealed the need to do surgery to repair the disc in her back.

“It was the most excruciating pain I’ve ever had,” Chandler said. “I ended up in the hospital with a ruptured disc. Following surgery, I’ve never been like I was before. I’m always in some measure of back pain.”

Beaver, who left the office in Rock Hill and has been practicing in Cheraw for the past four years, said his treatment didn’t cause the woman’s herniated disc.

“It was impossible from what I did,” Beaver said. “I saw the patient twice. She was in a lot of pain. I didn’t cause it. This was just one patient who already had a problem.”

Chandler sued Narry Beaver and the chiropractic office for alleged malpractice in 2008 on the grounds they failed to fully evaluate her medical history, perform a proper physical exam, take proper X-rays and were acting outside the scope of chiropractic practice.

After a weeklong trial in Circuit Court, a York County jury last week awarded Chandler $500,000 in punitive damages and $305,000 in actual damages.

Punitive damages, which are usually in excess of provable injuries, are awarded in cases where the defendant’s actions are “egregiously insidious.”

These types of damages, which are intended to punish the responsible party and deter others from committing the same acts, in medical malpractice cases in South Carolina are rare, said Chandler’s attorney Robert Phillips.

Andrew Cole, an attorney who represented Beaver Chiropractic, declined to comment on the case.

Two medical records

After her surgery, Chandler’s husband called the chiropractor’s office to alert them of her hospitalization and cancel her remaining appointments.

Chandler said she later decided to see a lawyer and obtained her medical records from Beaver Chiropractic.

The record released to her stated the doctor gave her a side-posture adjustment — where the chiropractor positions the patient on his or her side, then applies a quick and precise manipulative thrust to the misaligned vertebra — during the first day of treatment, but not the second.

Because the adjustment is an invasive procedure, the plaintiff alleges it was left off the treatment records from the day she was hospitalized to possibly avoid showing causation.

That record also misspelled Chandler’s first name.

A separate record, obtained through Phillips, listed the adjustment on both days as well as other details missing in the records released to Chandler.

“Evidence showed the chiropractor altered his records on his treatment from the day she went to the hospital,” Phillips said. “Doctors have to be able to rely on accurate medical records. Altering medical records could put the public’s health at risk.”

Dr. Reuben Orr, who has owned Beaver Chiropractic since before Chandler was treated, said a “software glitch” led to the dual records.

“The discrepancy with the records is an issue with the software and how it was inputted,” Orr said. “Unfortunately, I wasn’t able to testify to the difference in the records.”

He added that chiropractic treatment is safe.

“Dr. Beaver has practiced more than 30 years without other similar allegations of injuries being caused,” Orr said. “I’ve practiced 10 years, and I haven’t had a problem before then or since then.”

Chandler said her life has never been the same. She can’t ride bikes, hike or camp with family like she used to. She struggles to play on the floor with her grandkids or pick them up.

“You just have to completely change your life,” she said. “You have to make adjustments to everything. You have to pay attention to what you do so you don’t aggravate it.”

She’s said she’s had eight steroid shots and been in continuing therapy. She said she might need another surgery.

“Hopefully, in the future there’s going to be something that will put my back to how it was,” Chandler said. “It’s ever-present pain.”

ROCK HILL – — A jury ordered a Rock Hill chiropractor to pay more than $800,000 after evidence showed fraudulent records may have been created to conceal part of a woman’s treatment performed hours before she was hospitalized.

Cheryl Chandler sought relief for minor back pain from a chiropractor after seeing a family physician in June 2006. The Rock Hill woman, then 53, said she had an aching pain that continued down her leg.

Chandler said she heard a chiropractor could provide some relief, so she went to see Narry Beaver of Beaver Chiropractic and Spinal Rehab in Rock Hill.

“However, after my first treatment, I was feeling a little worse,” she said. “I had difficulty sleeping.”

Because Chandler was in pain, she had her husband take her for a follow-up treatment the next day.

Hours after that treatment, she was admitted to the hospital with “intractable pain” and given morphine. An MRI revealed the need to do surgery to repair the disc in her back.

“It was the most excruciating pain I’ve ever had,” Chandler said. “I ended up in the hospital with a ruptured disc. Following surgery, I’ve never been like I was before. I’m always in some measure of back pain.”

Beaver, who left the office in Rock Hill and has been practicing in Cheraw for the past four years, said his treatment didn’t cause the woman’s herniated disc.

“It was impossible from what I did,” Beaver said. “I saw the patient twice. She was in a lot of pain. I didn’t cause it. This was just one patient who already had a problem.”

Chandler sued Narry Beaver and the chiropractic office for alleged malpractice in 2008 on the grounds they failed to fully evaluate her medical history, perform a proper physical exam, take proper X-rays and were acting outside the scope of chiropractic practice.

After a weeklong trial in Circuit Court, a York County jury last week awarded Chandler $500,000 in punitive damages and $305,000 in actual damages.

Punitive damages, which are usually in excess of provable injuries, are awarded in cases where the defendant’s actions are “egregiously insidious.”

These types of damages, which are intended to punish the responsible party and deter others from committing the same acts, in medical malpractice cases in South Carolina are rare, said Chandler’s attorney Robert Phillips.

Andrew Cole, an attorney who represented Beaver Chiropractic, declined to comment on the case.

Two medical records

After her surgery, Chandler’s husband called the chiropractor’s office to alert them of her hospitalization and cancel her remaining appointments.

Chandler said she later decided to see a lawyer and obtained her medical records from Beaver Chiropractic.

The record released to her stated the doctor gave her a side-posture adjustment — where the chiropractor positions the patient on his or her side, then applies a quick and precise manipulative thrust to the misaligned vertebra — during the first day of treatment, but not the second.

Because the adjustment is an invasive procedure, the plaintiff alleges it was left off the treatment records from the day she was hospitalized to possibly avoid showing causation.

That record also misspelled Chandler’s first name.

A separate record, obtained through Phillips, listed the adjustment on both days as well as other details missing in the records released to Chandler.

“Evidence showed the chiropractor altered his records on his treatment from the day she went to the hospital,” Phillips said. “Doctors have to be able to rely on accurate medical records. Altering medical records could put the public’s health at risk.”

Dr. Reuben Orr, who has owned Beaver Chiropractic since before Chandler was treated, said a “software glitch” led to the dual records.

“The discrepancy with the records is an issue with the software and how it was inputted,” Orr said. “Unfortunately, I wasn’t able to testify to the difference in the records.”

He added that chiropractic treatment is safe.

“Dr. Beaver has practiced more than 30 years without other similar allegations of injuries being caused,” Orr said. “I’ve practiced 10 years, and I haven’t had a problem before then or since then.”

Chandler said her life has never been the same. She can’t ride bikes, hike or camp with family like she used to. She struggles to play on the floor with her grandkids or pick them up.

“You just have to completely change your life,” she said. “You have to make adjustments to everything. You have to pay attention to what you do so you don’t aggravate it.”

She’s said she’s had eight steroid shots and been in continuing therapy. She said she might need another surgery.

“Hopefully, in the future there’s going to be something that will put my back to how it was,” Chandler said. “It’s ever-present pain.”

Read more: http://www.thestate.com/2011/03/04/1720649/rock-hill-woman-wins-800000-in.html?story_link=email_msg#ixzz1JPndwygN

Hope everyone had a great Easter!

Hi Gang,
We will have much to share with all of you in the coming months.

Staying quiet is extremely difficult….but necessary at this time.

Hey! Some big news coming out of Connecticut. I’ll be breaking it soon! Stay tuned. Patience is difficult, but necessary at this time. Much to share.

The Superior Courts of Connecticut has dismissed the lawsuit that was initiated by Janet Levy, one of the Chiropractic ladies at the Connecticut hearings, and brought against the chiropractic health care profession.

It was found that this lawsuit was baseless, so it was correctly tossed out on the grounds that there are no grounds for this lawsuit.

Apparently, other interesting, and very surprising, information has surfaced that I am sure will be coming out very soon.

http://adaeveningnews.com/local/x1110910171/Police-to-investigate-death-of-Ada-man

Hey Vann. Was the above link posted by Dr. Farha the interesting news that you had announced? What do you and your buddies think about this recent incident in my home state of Oklahoma?

I thought the good Perfesser didn’t stayed out of this “forum”.

Well, Bill, I am skeptical about this article. It sounds like you wrote it yourself. Skeptical viewpoints must be maintained when reading newspaper articles, especially ‘online newspapers’. The fact that you are involved and it is in Oklahoma makes me even more skeptical and makes me thing this is even more dubious than you would like us to believe. As with the others, I am confident that it will be shown that the two are not connected.

No, the interesting news is that yet another so-called ‘class-action’ lawsuit was dismissed. In my view, there is less to VOCA than meets the eye.

Connecticut has proven to be a strong state, and will continue to be. Some costly defeats have been served up to the anti-chiropractic extremists. I just see you shifting your imaginary battle against non-drug therapies to your home turf and away from Connecticut. Less time away from home neglecting your family, eh, Bill?

Hey Bill, why did the University of OK toss you off of their weekend seminar on high-velocity, low-amplitude upper cervical manipulation? I would like to believe that it was my posts here that made them realize that having you on the roster of ‘speakers’ was a bad idea, a source of potential liability, especially with the ‘lawsuit’ that was subsequently dismissed by the Superior Courts of Connecticut. IMO, I think they likely didn’t want to be mixed up in your public displays of deception. I think they made the right decision.

But here is a link showing where the real dangers in health care today can be found. Incredible!!

http://www.healthe-livingnews.com/articles/death_by_medicine_part_1.html

It is truly sad that Vann and his chiro buddies are so afraid of the truth getting out that they are willing to completely dismiss the tragic death of a young otherwise healthy individual all in the name of a philosophical belief system with no scientific basis whatsoever. Chiropractic is a hoax and a fraud, and it is very dangerous as well.

Otherwise healthy individual…..Doc do you know if he smoked? Do you know if he was on any meds? Did you now him personally? You make the claim that he was otherwise healthy, which is a step further than any media station has taken it. The ME labelled it accidental, yet you would lead his survivors to believe it was intentional? I had over 120 patients ask about this and not a one sees any blame to be placed on the chiro. All understand any risks involved with life. Stroke is more common while a person is putting on a seat belt than at a chiropractors office. Should we shut down Chevy? Strokes happen, its not the M.D.’s fault or the D.C.’s fault. You attempting to light fires with lies and deceit only puts you closer to your own fire. You have had “seminars” cancelled. You have been removed from your own teachings of what you term is useless. You have become a laughing stock. Keep fighting the good fight….by the way my office has doubled in the last 6 months. I dont advertise, its all word of mouth. Chiropractic is getting stronger because of people like you not weaker…so thank you Dr. Bill, keep up the good work:)

Any time timmy.

So, Bill, you have evaded responding to any of my points. So exactly why did the University of Oklahoma correctly jettison you [PORTION DELETED HERE BY BLOG OPERATOR] from their program? Potential liability issues I suppose.

I think Dr. Hill makes some very good points, that you ignore, too. I believe it is Bill’s inability to separate his intense anti-chiropractic hate-centric extremism from the reality that people have strokes 800,000 times each year, many from “proven” drugs, surgery and anesthesia, NONE of which can be attributed to non-drug health care.

All the evidence was brought to the table in Connecticut and the Board of Examiners found that there is overwhelming evidence that chiropractic health care does not cause these types of injuries. They also added into the official record that the embarrassing testimony of Bill’s mentor, Murray Katzzz, was NOT CREDIBLE. Voted on unanimously by the Board of Examiners to be put into the recored forever.

They coulda used you in Connecticut, Bill. You coulda been someone. You coulda been a contender, Bill. You have been dipping into the honey well a long time. Looks like the well is running dry.

Surprising how Bill is not upset about his own profession being the number one killer of Americans:
http://www.healthe-livingnews.com/articles/death_by_medicine_part_1.html
Transferring your frustrations onto safe methods, eh Bill?

Ok regardless of the whole chiropractic vs. no chiropractic thing, I have to chime in. Why do the individuals on this site have to be so very personal with attacks. I get the differing opinions, but I am referring to the comments about spelling, grammar and the like. Insulting a person’s ability to spell or use the English language is just not classy. If you want to argue a point do so. We do not know the situation of the person writing a post. Are they blogging from a phone that does not correct common errors? are they dyslexic, is English a second language. If your opinion has merit you would not need to insult a persons abilities. I have met Phds, MDs, and lawyers that have learning disorders that make it difficult to spell properly. It does not take away from a persons intelligence that they are not good spellers. On the other hand (to Troy in particular; because this personal insult thing tends to be your favorite approach) you can also spell well and not be intelligent! I mean really, your approach is to attack a persons ability to spell in an informal communication..Why not stick with the facts and leave the personal stuff out of it. I mean this is kind of like pointing and laughing at a person that has had a stroke because they cant speak correctly or making fun of a person in a wheelchair. Its just mean and tacky. At least Dr. K just tends to attacks the facts and uses concise language to point out his thoughts. I wouldn’t think anyone would want an English teacher taking the comments off of this blog and red pen them so gees people grow up.

thanks
Concerned member of International Dyslexic Association
we are not dumb or less than we just have the gift of seeing things differently

Hey Dr. K I think you should challenge Dr. F. Marzban or Dr. Michael Hall at Parker University to a debate. I think that would be very interesting. What do you think?

Im in the process of doing a very interesting research project. Simply put Im going to do A record review of the most “chiropractic adjusted” population, chiropractic students. My thought is that these are mostly healthy, in good shape and young, so if upper cervical adjustments frequently cause stroke I should see a percentage of strokes caused while the person is a student. After all these students are adjusted in this manner all day, every day. We should see some strokes, wouldnt you think?

OCU Professor Bryan Farha, the creator of this blog, has previously offered to host such a public debate. If these inviduals are willing I certainly would participate.

I will talk with dr. Marzban and see what he thinks! I don’t want to mislead he is not just a chiropractor he us also phd in neuro from the U of Michigan. I feel like he would have tons of insight on the matter at hand. Plus unlike MDs or DCs he’s a “real” doctor (in the traditional sense). I would venture to say his credentials make him more of an authority then..say you Dr K. I don’t mean that in a negative way, just that he would be most qualified to discuss neurology and the appropriateness of chiropractic care. I feel it would be a very interesting discussion. Let’s just hope he is interested. Oh and if he is you may want to bring your old neurology text from medical school so you can follow along when he talks over your head lol..come on neuro guys talk over everyones heads

I would like too. I think it is a great idea. Not for proving who is right or who is wrong but rather talking about the scientific and clinical facts and what the best care our patients can have. I know my limitations of what I can offer with chiropractic care and I hope every other healthcare provider can identify their limitations as well. My dad was a medical doctor (one of the best) and I was also trained in a medical college for my Ph.D. I have nothing against medicine when it is done responsibly as I have the same feeling for the chiropractors including myself. I am also disappointed when I see healthcare colleagues (medical and non-medical) try to defend their profession and put down others because of being so ignorant. Let us work together and be the best care providers as we can be for the benefit of our patients. Respectfully yours, F. Marzban D.C., Ph.D.

Well Dr. Bill looks like you have yourself a debate. I would love it if you would post the when and where of it so I could attend.

Yeesssssss!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Well Dr. Farha, would you consider hosting this “debate” on your campus? I’m in. Could be very interesting to say the least. And it looks like Tim Young has resumed his following of the blog, maybe he could join us as well.

It’s not likely to happen on the OCU campus, but I’m looking into another site and I’ll report back as soon as I get the answer.

This is exciting! I can’t wait to see this. Please post the details so we can attend if possible. So dr. Bill what’s your thoughts on this guy? He’s involved in chiropractic so he must be a sham right? (sarcasm) so how can a guy that is educated in the medical model and an expert in his field be so confused? (sarcasm again) maybe the problem is that you don’t understand so you fight against it. Maybe after your “debate” with Dr. Marzban maybe you will better understand what is happening during an adjustment. Just a thought.

Thanks to Dr. Farha for his consideration of this “event”.

As to what I think about Dr. Marzban, I don’t know anything about him. Have never heard his name except recently on this blog. According to these posts he has earned a Ph.D. but I am not clear in which subject. If this is true then great, we are proud of him and will give credit where credit is due but that does not change the simple reality that chiropractic is nothing but a scam, and a dangerous scam at that. I look forward to meeting Dr. Marzban and I am sure that if it all works out we will have a lively debate. Hopefully Tim, and Vann, and Shepp we all be there to observe.

For those “doubters” out there. I did obtain yesterday from the office of the “Chief Medical Examiner” of the state of Oklahoma the autopsy report from the 30 year old young man who died at Mercy Health Center in Oklahoma City on June 11, 2011. The ME did a complete and detailed post mortem exam and concluded without hesitation that the death was a direct result of the chiropractic neck manipulation which took place on June 9, 2011. They found no abnormalities of the patients vasculature including the Circle of Willis other than the gross dissection of the right vertebral artery. The document if public information so please don’t hesitate to contact the office if you need to see the report in person

Hi Dr. Kinsinger,
My Ph.D. is in Human Anatomy specialized in Neuroscience. I also have completed 2 post-doctorate programs at the University of Wisconsine primate center at Madison and University of Kansas Medical Center. I also have completed the course work for Chiropractic Neurology by Dr. Carick. Looking forward visiting you soon. Respectfully, F. Marzban

That all sounds great. We will certainly have lots to talk about.

Dr. Kinsinger
With regards to your comment on the death of the individual in OKC recently; How was this listed? I mean specifically the COD and MOD as listed in the report? If it was determined to be the directly caused by the chiropractor it must have have been listed as a homicide? Not in the murderous Hollywood kind of way but in the normal and customary death reporting kind of way. If the death was ruled a direct result of the chiropractors actions it must have been listed as a homicide (“homicide is the killing of one human by (1) the actions or (2) negligent inactions of another human, whether in criminal or non-criminal ways.) So without your interpretation what is the cause and manner of death listed?

Sorry Dr. Kinsinger didnt mean for that to come out as intense as it did. Ive worked in forensics for many years and just meant that I would like to know how it was listed.

Also I would like to share a story. I few years ago I went to a “Dr.” because I was having pain between my shoulder blades. I went to this “clinic” looking for some answer to my problem. I thought it had gotten so bad it took my breath away but actually I was just experiencing shortness of breath. As I sat in the “Doctor’s” clinic I started feeling like my chest was in a vice. Now mind you I had explained all of my original complaints to the lady behind the counter and when I started feeling worse I told her again. At this point Im having real doozie of a chest pain, pain between my shoulder blades, and now my fingers in my hand are going wacky. All the while Im sitting in the waiting room to see this “Doctor” and boy am I using that term loosely. Finally after what felt like an eternity (actually an hour i think) a lady comes out and says to me that I need to leave and go to the hospital. I say ok and I walk out to leave! in the parking lot im struggling to unlock my car door to drive myself to the hospital, when the real Doctor that is in the office next door sees me and rushes over to help. He has me lie down in the back seat of my car and calls 911, rambles off some Dr. talk to the 911 folks and has a meat wagon (ambulance) at my beck in no time. To say the least I’m having a bad day. At this point crushing chest pain, fingers not working quite right, sweating to the point my shirt is drenched and my skin took on pretty sort of greenish pale color. I get to the hospital and they take care of things for me. Some how I lived through the ordeal. Shouldnt this quack have known something was really wrong and called the ambulance for me? instead of running me off?

“It is felt that the cause of death is regarded to be acute cerebellar infarction as a result of chiropractic manipulation of neck. The manner of death is ruled to be an accident.”

If you doubt me, this is all public record and can be easily verified by contacting the office of the Chief Medical Examiner of Oklahoma.

The real question remains. How long can the chiro industry deny the sad reality that their “profession” is killing young otherwise healthy individuals all in the name of a philosophical belief systems???
Do you think that the parents of this young man would be interested in the debate surrounding the infamous “Cassidy study”?
Do you think these grieving parents want to hear some eager young chiro student spouting on about how “chiropractic works”???

I just hosted a Chiropractic event here in Okc this past Saturday. Over 400 attended form 20 different states and Canada. Not only will I be at this debate but I will bring several hundred including several MDs that I personally get refferals from. Actually I treat several people in the media and at the capital. I will make sure that it is well publicized. Oh and just so you don’t sleep well tonight I just got a text from a Chiropractor here in OKC. He adjusted his newborn nephew in the nicu at one of the hospitals while the MD and 3 nurses watched. Baby wasn’t breathing on his own. Immediatley after adjustment baby was taken off oxygen and slept for 4 hours. Keep telling yourself its a scam and we will just keep proving you wrong. Enjoy !!

” It is felt”, is that a scientific medical phrase. How do you prove “it is felt”? Who is it felt by? What other feelings did they have? FYI, This person did not have the stoke in the office, he had it several hours later. Funny how the news missed that. Also there was no investigation on the techniqe used or even what vertebrae were adjusted. Alot of holes and speculation. Weird.

Tim
I know you mean well and are just standing up for your profession, that’s awesome it reLly is, but “it is felt” is a completely legitimate medicolegal term that basically means in the report writers opinion. Forensic pathologist have a very specific set of guideline they follow to write cause and manner of death. XXXXXXXXXX You might consider sometimes what you do know before you speak. Now that being said feel free to jump all over my for my comments I really don’t care. I am a supporter or chiropractic and that story I told before was about an MD and the DC hero. Now here’s the problem as I see it, (I know who cares how I see it) well I do. And this is a blog we all get to chime in. Anyway I’ve read all of these comments and it is very obvious you are passionate about chiropractic, because you always post from an emotional place. Take the time to calm yourself and post carefully and in an articulate manner. If you don’t then you will continue to be poked fun at by the individual that frequent this site. Do some research, post articles that make your point for you. You are doing chiropractic any favors by playing the fit throwing toddler. If you want chiropractic to be accepted then present it in a professional way that does not allow for the opposing side to poke fun at how unprofessional you are. Dont make personal attacks, in short don’t sink to the level they live! And for goodness gracious stop with how important you are! It just makes you look like an XXX. If you have to tell us all how important you are you arent that important. Defend chiropractic by all means just please just do it with your wits about you!

And please excuse the mistakes I’m posting from my phone

And please excuse the mistakes I’m posting from my phone. It kindda has a mind of it’s own

Yes, I would love to witness William Jefferson Kingsinger live up to his self-proclaimed title of Master Debater (MD). However, I have no interest in traveling to see and hear his public displays of deception, even though they would make for a rocking good time…just like his mentor Murrky Katzzz did in Connecticut.

Katzzz just added yet another stain to his already moldy C.V. after testifying in Connecticut. The Board of Examiners added wording in the official public record that his testimony was “not reliable.”

Bill had his chance to debate and produce his so-called ‘evidence’ in the form of his ‘secret list’ of victims…but he was a no-show. No Bill, no ‘list’. Too bad. Murrky had the distinct honor of sinking the chiropractic ladies already sinking ship single-handedly without Bill’s help.

As for the venue, there is no way that Bill would ever show his face on the campus of a Chiropractic University to explain why he hates chiropractic health care to hundreds of students and doctors of the chiropractic health care profession. He is too smart for that.

Cam,
You are right. I am in awe of you superior inteligence and status.I will leave this blog to you and the mentally and verbally advanced. My apologies.

P.S.
Your right Vanny but what do I know?

Good hearing from you Tim, I thought you had stopped reading this blog.

Tim,
As I suspected you only saw what you wanted in my post. It’s not about my status or intelligence. It’s about your total lack of professional decorum. Chiropractic is near and deal to my heart and it takes enough from the medics without you helping them along. As I suspected you would you responded to me via pure emotion and not from viable platform. Chiropractic works I’ve seen this for myself, I’ve experienced it for myself and I’ve done my research. Other people outside of the chirobubble are not going to take “cause Tim said so” as validation of it’s effectiveness. So keep posting and do damage to the profession! As you said you see 200 px a day so what do you care? You see them they pay you, your done who cares about the profession as long as Tim gets his cheese! I tried to be nice and just share a little hard learned advice for you but hey what do I know? I wasn’t knocking you, but I sure have learned alot about you from your response! With that kind of ego maybe you should have been a surgeon.

Why does Bill keep avoiding answering the question of why the University of Oklahoma tossed him off of their yearly weekend program that teaches unskilled physiotherapists to perform imprecise, upper cervical manipulation on the unsuspecting public in contrast to the many years of precise, specific training that chiropractic doctors get in a doctoral-level program at a chiropractic univerity.

He never did answer that one and guess he is unlikely to do so anytime soon.

What?

So Dr. Bill isn’t what you as a ob anesthesiologist by definition dangerous and generally unneeded medically? I realize it’s absolutely needed in a few cases but generally it’s because the woman can’t or doesnt want to handle the pain like nature intended! Before thou say anything yes ive had 3 children all without those services. Anyway it had a great deal of risk and if generally medically not needed! Just saying

Good point. Yes, in fact everything that we do in conventional medicine has associated risks, some of those are quite serious. It is for precisely that reason that we utilize a concept known as “informed consent”. Before we provide any type of treatment we assure that the patient and their family are made aware of the proposed treatment, its associated risks as well as its known benefits, and any alternatives to care including doing nothing at all. This does not absolve us of responsibility or liability in the case of a bad outcome but it does allow the patient to make a reasonable decision regarding their health care.

This is one of the big complaints we have with the chiro industry. Not only do chiro’s shudder at the idea of actually admitting that their particular brand of “therapy” is associated with significant risk including stroke and death, they also are not being honest with the folks who undergo neck twisting in an effort to “treat” low back pain, knee ailments, asthma, ear infections, PMS, leukemia, appendicitis, or acute angina.

As far as what I do in my medical practice being “unneeded”, I guess you can have that opinion but the vast majority(well over 90%) of women request epidural analgesia during labor and I think it is fair to say that 100% of those who require C-Section (approx 25% of all deliveries) would proclaim that the services that I and my colleagues provide are “essential”.

Sorry unneeded was not the correct way to put it, I meant not medically required. So then would you leave the chiropractors alone if they used “informed consent” for neck treatments? I mean whats the Stats 1 in 5 million cva according to the lit review conducted by the rand Corp vs 2.8 deaths in 1 million for epidurals? Both most commonly associated with young women. both completely elective, so is that what your looking for out of the chiropractic community? That would

Ill tell you what. I will make a deal right now. If the ACA and the ICA, we can forget about the WCA since they are total wacko zealots, will agree right now on this blog to mandate that their members begin to provide their “patients” with informed consent (including the “rare” but well documented phenomenon of stroke following upper neck manipulation) by the year 2013 I will officially hang up my “gloves” and walk away. No more blogging, no websites, no presentations, nothing. You will never hear from me again.

Deal?

I’m waiting for a response.

Since I’m in a good mood, I’ll make you another deal. If a patient ever “dies” following an epidural that I provided for relief of labor pain, I will relinquish my medical license and never practice again.

Come on guys, write it down. Hold me too it.

I have been unsuccessful in my preliminary effort to find a sponsor for a debate. Due to an overseas work obligation, I will need to take about a month break before I can resume the effort–if you want me to–but for the immediate moment it will not happen by virtue of my organizing it.

Regretfully,

Bryan Farha
SMOKE & MIRRORS Blog Coordinator

Well Dr. Kinsinger
I posted a response to your statements but I guess they got left on the editing room floor. I’ll have to try again.

We appreciate your efforts Dr. Farha. Perhaps one of the chiro cheerleaders will take the initiative.

Hello all

Dr. Kinsinger has done a fine job in researching the chiropractic industry. I know; I am the UNNAMED “Chiropractic Enemy #1″. And, I have already fought that industry at the Board level … and won.

In a way, I am an insider. You see, my grandfather was a famous chiropractor who was completely disillusioned with his profession. And yes, I have documentation that goes back at least twenty years that shows his effort to force Chiropractic to raise it’s standards. Dr. Kinsinger and I have spoken several times, in fact, and he should remember me.

What Dr. Kinsinger is not talking about, and he very well should be, is that the atlanto-occipital joint, (where the head and spine come together), is depicted incorrectly in the anatomy textbooks. Now to a medical doctor this may not be a big deal since, after all, M.D.’s don’t usually go around forcing bones in that region.

However, manipulating the upper cervical spine is the bread and butter of the chiropractic industry, and please rest assured that the chiropractic schools don’t have any better information than what the anatomy textbooks show, which as I said, is in error.

Yes, it is extremely dangerous to have anyone manipulating bones that they don’t understand the true architectural design of. This has been my contention for more than two decades. And believe me, I have been screaming at that industry for as long.

Please see: http://www.nsirtech.com/condyles.html

Now I have spoken to I can’t even begin to tell you how many doctors, and not all of them have been chiropractors, through the years about this issue. The doctor’s response is virtually the same, no matter who I am talking to. What I hear, in almost a flippant, callous, disregard for the obvious truth is this: “What difference does that make … two verses four?”

My response is simply, form and function. Hand in glove. If you don’t understand how the joint is formed, or designed, you can’t possibly understand how it works. You can’t understand the difference between normal and abnormal. And if there is something abnormal, or wrong, you can’t possibly understand what exactly it is, that IS wrong, let alone, you don’t know how to fix it.

Yes, chiropractors should be BANNED from working in an area that they know nothing of, as should anyone else. Now, I am here to let you know that not only do I know the TRUE design of the atlanto-occipital joint, but I know how to fix it, and believe me every case is specific to itself.

Now, I would love to be able to think that this post would get the attention of the ‘good’ doctors out there who would like to not only shut down the farce of chiropractic, but would actually be willing to do what the chiropractic industry refused.

Sincerely

Tammy Kennedy
Certified Nerve Signal Interference (NSI) Specialist
(580) 402-3375

Um so Tammy, you’ve come on an anti chiropractic blog to speak out against chiropractic and are hoping for the people on this blog to support you in your efforts to rename chiropractic so you can practice without a license? You know if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck it’s not a horse

I do practice without a license Cam, and I don’t need your approval to do so. Anyone who inquires about what I can do for them knows my expertise, I assure you. They can also see very clearly what I’ve been trying to explain to people such as yourself, for years. My presence here is due to my previous contact with Dr. Kinsinger, albeit he has not asked me to comment.

My message is simply, let’s step up what Dr. Kinsinger has tried to do. I mean … come on! … a blurb about how upper cervical neck manipulation can cause stroke, etc,. [Quote by Dr. Kinsinger: "Ill tell you what. I will make a deal right now. If the ACA and the ICA, we can forget about the WCA since they are total wacko zealots, will agree right now on this blog to mandate that their members begin to provide their “patients” with informed consent (including the “rare” but well documented phenomenon of stroke following upper neck manipulation) by the year 2013 I will officially hang up my “gloves” and walk away. No more blogging, no websites, no presentations, nothing. You will never hear from me again.

Deal?

I’m waiting for a response."], … IS JUST NOT GOOD ENOUGH! … and quite frankly makes me very angry. If that’s all he wants, then everything that Dr. Kinsinger has done up till now ends in a little poof with no real effect. I mean … what was the point?! … when he could do SO MUCH MORE.

And THAT, is my response.

I can take what he has accomplished one step further … and quite frankly if he does not seek me out in order to SERIOUSLY drive the nail into the chiropractic coffin … I can only say that he truly is not serious about his cause.

Debate? Absolutely!! Count me in .. just name the time and the place. I will be there.

Tammy Kennedy
Certified Nerve Signal Interference (NSI) Specialist
(580)402-3375

PS. Chiropractic is a fraud the way it stands today. Now either the chiropractors will pay me in order to be able to put Dr. Kinsinger’s criticisms down for the count and FINALLY raise their standard, which I believe is what Dr. Kinsinger wants and has been working toward .. OR, the medical industry, or physical therapists, will pay me and then be able to take the lead in manual therapy. Either way, I guess I am game.

PPS. By the way, I delivered my daughter without any help from an anesthesiologist. And, it was the MEDICAL system, NOT the chiropractors, that killed her, just barely over eight years ago now. Yesterday would’ve been her 25th birthday.

Tammy,
You seem to think you are very wise. In your infinite wisdom would you please attempt to explain why if Chiropractic is such a fraud why do people continue to go. For 116 years it has been the patients who have kept the profession alive. Even against the powerful medical and Pharm companies the Profession survives. You can jump up and down and make all the noise you want but your colors are showing. You are not trained to do anything worth talking about no matter how hard you market youself and also I seriously doubt that anyone in your family was a “famous” chiropractor. If they were I’m sure your family is very proud of you. Please keep posting. It’s entertaining.

Tammy
Just because you change the name of what you do does not mean it’s not chiropractic. You spout chiro ideas but you are too ignorant to realize it. You even use chiropractic terms! I think that someone should forward your comment to the ok board of chiropractic after all you openly admitted you practice chiropractic illegally. I mean just because they dropped charges last time does not mean they can’t bring them again, as they should. Just because you only adjust the two parts of the spine doesn’t mean it’s not chiropractic. As for your assertion that the skull articulates on 4 and not 2 condyles is very interesting. When I went through med school and actually looked at a gross specimen I saw 2. So where exactly would you with your mentorship under your grandfather have seen gross specimens? Or is it because good ole grandpa said so?

Now isn’t that interesting?

I always said the reason why we weren’t being listened to had to do with politics.

My last post has disappeared. Wonder who might have taken it down.

Guess I will have to post it on my web site. Good thing I saved this blog to my hard drive.

This ain’t my first rodeo guys.

One more thing, don’t think that I don’t know the reason why the textbooks haven’t been corrected by now. The reason why the textbooks have not been corrected is because this revolutionary discoverty was made by none other than a retired chiropractor. Had he been a medical doctor or an osteopath the medical community would have had to take him seriously.

Tammy Kennedy
Certified Nerve Signal Interference (NSI) Specialist
(580) 402-3375

Tammy,

I removed your last comment because I considered it to be personally attacking to some–which I don’t tolerate. I’ve removed before and I will likely do so again. I realize on many (if not most) blogs, “anything goes.” But I made a decision when I started this that comments had to be respectful. Disagreement is fine–even strong disagreement. But not attacks. I hope you understand.

Bryan (Smoke & Mirrors blog coordinator).

Hello Bryan

Glad to know you are looking in. Perhaps we can converse professionally in person soon.

But first, I have a few questions for you.

How is it that the two posts made on August 17 above are not “attacking”?

And I quote: “… You are not trained to do anything worth talking about no matter how hard you market youself …”,

” … you are too ignorant to realize it … “,

“… When I went through med school and actually looked at a gross specimen I saw 2. So where exactly would you with your mentorship under your grandfather have seen gross specimens? Or is it because good ole grandpa said so?”

… end quote.

You know I could have been very droll in my response to these attacks. Instead I elected to handle the “criticism” in a very professional manner. Regarding the question about why do people continue to go to chiropractic I can imagine that Dr. Kinsinger would have probably answered something similar.

As far as the latest post by Cam is concerned I cannot find any merit to anything he has to say. There is an obvious diversion from facts and he makes baseless accusations and even threats. And then he goes so far as to make the claim he is an authority because he’s been to med school and has seen the real mccoy, at least once. Then he actually pokes fun as if I don’t know what I’m talking about because I had not been to med school and had no resources regarding the atlanto-occipital joint. And all this when I am clearly showing this blog the proof:

http://www.nsirtech.com/condyles.html

I simply answered both posts factually. And then you took down that proof. What’s up with that?

The consensus on this side of the screen is how on earth can the authorities continue to pretend like I have no real contention here. The latest opinion that was presented to me here was why hasn’t someone called me personally to discover more about what I know instead of poo-pooing my obvious knowledge.

I mean I thought cutting edge was to be desired.

Tammy Kennedy
Certified Nerve Signal Interference (NSI) Specialist
(580) 402-3375

PS. Now don’t think that I’m asking you to take down the above mentioned posts. I’m not. They showed their colors, and I think it is proper that the world sees. In fact if you took the posts down now it would only look like someone’s hiding something. And since it appears that the debate will not be happening on campus, this blog is all we’ve got, isn’t it?

Tammy–I didn’t take down your comment because of the facts you presented–it was because of the personal attacks. As far as the examples you cite as also being personal attacks, I judged yours as a level above those. It’s arbitrary.

As has been my policy in the past, I will not continue to dialog regarding this post-I created it for others. Periodically, I will chime in, but for the most part, I stay out. I hope you understand.

OK Bryan

Give me an example. You can call me directly. I don’t think your “judgment” has any merit unless you can name the “offense”.

Once again, my post was not disparaging in any way. It was simply factual.

Tammy Kennedy
Certified Nerve Signal Interference (NSI) Specialist
(580) 402-3375

PS. I will be speaking with a trusted college professor here to get his take on your opinion.

Brian is judge and jury. At least here but not at OCU. I know your co workers. Tammy your grandfather was not famous and he really didn’t practice Chiropractic. It was a distorted,gross interpretation of Chiropractic. I know you got away with one in 08 but prepare yourself. Things in the state are changing rapidly and I will see to it that you and others like you will not destroy what so many have spent their lives to protect.

Well Marcus you better hope that I’m not ahead of you in reaching the grass roots. And by the way, when I spoke to Viki Resler, the first woman chiropractor ever on the Board, she explained to me that the whole matter was a dead horse to the Board. She simply stated … you won … and it’s over. She also wished me well and said that since she had affiliations with the Board that she could not do anything more regarding my efforts to free the people.

I will be putting up my video soon on my web site that shows my presentation in Chicago in ’07. The crowd turned against the chiropractors at that time just so you know.

Tammy Kennedy
Certified Nerve Signal Interference (NSI) Specialist
(580) 402-3375

PS. Thanks Bryan for letting the “questionable” post out after all. And just so you all know, there is more than 60 years of collective effort between me and my grandfather here. And, I have done more in the last ten years than he did in the previous forty. What is our hope? To see chiropractic either improved, obviously not because they readily chose to, or, extinct. We have always worked first toward the former, and the latter was because of necessity. You should know, I have no intention of quitting now. My book will be in print soon.

@Tammy
Have you considered getting some sort of education so that people take you seriously? I’m not trying to be rude, I’m really not. People just don’t tend to listen to people that do not have the credentials To back up what they are saying. Does not mean you do not know what your talking about just that people want to see some kind of degree or something that says wow I should listen to them. For many years MD, DO, PT, OD, DDS, DC and many others have used the likes of Netters and Greys anatomy to learn human anatomy you have to give people a reason to believe that everyone was wrong. Anatomist agree that the occipital condyles one on each side articulate with the a matching facets on each side of C1. Without sounding rude why would we take your word to the contrary? As knowledagble as you may be, what authority do you hold besides a designation that you (or your grandfather) created? I’m really not trying to be curt or anything like that, I’m just saying like I see it. If some dude got on your plane and he was not educated by convention on how to fly your plane, but assured you his grandfather had taught him a better way to fly a plane would you stay on the plane? We want proof this day and age. Proof that this person has the knowledge to even address the topic. That being said I commend you on your convictions, but have you considered that your grandfather was wrong? If the condyles ride in 4 facets how does that translate to movements of that joint? If this where the case you would see limited theta-x movements. If the condyles are actually 2 per side and the facets on c1 are also 2 per side you would see two joint capsules on each side and that would render the joint immobile making it more like a syndesmosis, vs an actual articulation. Now I understand this is what you have been taught, and I get that I think we should all stand for something, but with no visible credential how or why should we take you as an authority on the matter? Also you market yourself as a nerve interference specialist and as hardcore as that sounds what formal education do you have in the human nervous system? Also if what you do is not chiropractic then why do you use chiropractic philosophy on your website? Reading the information on your site is nearly verbatim the same things I’ve read on chiropractic websites. I noticed your grandfather had Ph.C. after his name after a few minutes on google I discovered this is a designation from palmer indicating a chiropractic philosopher. I find it interesting that your philosophies so closely parallel that of chiropractic. You seem to even use chiropractic terminology. I guess considering your grandfathers education in philosophy it should be no surprise. Good luck with you quest

Sad to report I spoke with another new victim this past week. A 33 year old woman from Wisconsin who suffered bilateral VAD immediately following a chiro visit. She has significant permanent deficit, what a tragedy. When will you xxxxxx give up this nonsense?

bill, you and your petty name calling. Its funny you don’t mention the people who have strokes leaving their dentist or hair dresser. You need to pay more attention to your new board position and covering up the money trail. Good luck with that.It’s also funny how you little brother Brian never edits your remarks.

The answer to that is because I have just read it–I have made the edit in fairness.

So Marcus, can you give us any recent examples of anyone suffering a stroke at their dentist office or hairdresser? And if so, was the stroke a direct result of an action intentionally administered by the practitioner? And if you can, would these theoretical examples excuse the actions of chiropractors who so regularly cause profound permanent neurologic deficits and sometimes death in otherwise healthy young men and women? I look forward to your response.

Also Marcus, I appreciate your concern for my time management but I am perfectly capable of fulfilling all of my professional responsibilities while simultaneously striving to stop the senseless deaths and injuries that all too often occur in direct association with chiropractic “treatment”. Speaking of this, I was thinking yesterday how much more logical it would be for the various state chiropractic boards to be under the umbrella of state medical boards along with other non-medical health care entities, but then it occurred to me that this would be an insult to those disciplines as they are based in science as opposed to chiropractic which of course is about as scientific as astrology and big foot.

Lastly, I do have three younger brothers and Dr. Farha (Bryan) is not one of them.

It’s just like all those people who take prescription drugs,they read all of the side effects and continue to take the drug anyway then complain when their health deteriorates or they incur a debilitating condition because of the drugs they are taking. People who see chiropractors are told of the risks and sign a waver stating that they understand the risks. As do all who undergo surgery, they sign a waver stating they understand they may never wake up to see their loved ones again. There is risk with anything. Bottom line is people need to educate themselves not rely on blogs like this one to form their opinions. I am pro chiropractic and have been for years, I see a chiropractor and so all five of my children as do my grandchildren. I don’t take medicine, I eat healthy and exercise, don’t smoke, drink or do drugs. All these things are important for a healthy lifestyle. If I didn’t eat healthy and exercise and if I smoked this could cause a stroke and I couldn’t blame anyone but myself, not even a chiropractor. Dr. Kinsinger, I think you are a mean and selfish man. I hope not everyone reading this assumes all MD’s are like you, just like you want everyone reading your rant to think all chiropractors are evil. Shame on you, your not educating you’re bullying and using “some” statistics, not the whole story to prove your point.

Bullying??? No, just speaking up for the countless victims, and families of victims in the case of death, who the chiropractic industry so wishes would simply fade away. While you likely feel that “chiropractic works”, it is quackery plain and simple. If it were not for the fact that it is dangerous quackery we could probably just walk away but the deaths and devastating permanent injuries demand accountability, and since the industry is not willing to police itself someone has to step in draw a line in the sand. All we are asking for at this point is to stop the worthless neck twisting which is all done in the name of a philosophical belief system, or at the very least advise all patients of the potential risks including stroke and death. Yes, Cindi, despite your claims the reality is that the vast majority of chiropractors don’t provide informed consent prior to twisting those fragile necks.

Aprox 60,000 Chiropractors in the U.S. Avg.100 patient visits per week. Thats 6 million adjustments per week. 24 million per month. 288 million chiropractic adjustments per year and all you can do is dream up a couple of people that just happened to be having a stoke symptoms and went to a
Chiropractor because of their symptoms. Happens in MDs offices as much or more than chiros.Thats also 288 million Cindi’s in this country that would tell you to your face that you are dead wrong. You can’t win. Others have tried to discredit the Chiropractic profession and failed. I look forward to watching you finally give up and take on a new cause. Maybe going back to school and becoming an actual treating physician. Someone who actually helps people instead of tearing them down. But I want you to continue this blog. It’s going to help.

Finally give up? Never. Let me pose a question to you Marcus. If chiropractic is a legitimate “art”, why is it not offered as a course of study at a single public university in this country? Medical bigotry perhaps?

Bill

The reason why “chiropractic works” at all is primarily due to two things. First, the chiropractor actually corrected the articulation of the rib head in relation to the spine. This is Chiropractic’s true calling, and this is where the chiropractor’s domain should end, at least for now.

Secondly, on occasion, the chiropractor will accidentally correct the position of the head or pelvis while they are trying to, according to the chiropractor, “adjust” the atlas or the sacrum, or lower lumbar. The trouble with this is that they can’t repeat their success because they don’t actually understand what it was that they did. They simply have been taught wrong. This is not really the individual chiropractor’s fault. The failing actually goes back to the Palmer’s, originally, and now the fault is the schools’ responsibility.

As I said, we tried to raise their standard and they refused. I do also know that in the last fifty years or so they have been trying to steal our work without actually being responsibly taught, and, they most certainly refuse to pass the test on what they should already know. They think that if they watch us work and then pick our brains they are somehow expert in what we do. If you look at the actual court record when I had to defend Dr. Craton’s work against the Chiropractic Board you will find they are actually asking me how to do it.

Quite simply, the Board used the Court to try to forcibly extract the research instead of being responsible enough to pay me to teach them. And by the way, the first chiropractor I ever worked on was the future Board of Chiropractic Examiners President in Oklahoma. All it took for this to happen was for me to say I was Dr. Craton’s granddaughter and knew his work.

Of course, the reason why they are doing the damage that they most certainly are, as you have clearly seen, is because they do NOT understand the true design of the atlanto-occipital joint. They don’t understand the design; they don’t understand how it works; they don’t understand the difference between normal and abnormal; they don’t understand how to assess abnormal; and they truly don’t know how to fix it.

These are the scientific facts that you should be entrenched in.

As far as the damage that is being put upon the people due to not having timely access to the proper therapy is concerned, I will have to let another speak for me. I just know that she is 38 years old and has lived in horrific pain her entire life. She has been to every doctor that she could possibly see starting with the neurologist. The doctors didn’t know what to do for her, including the chiropractors. And interestingly enough, she even died due to her medications. When I saw her about a month ago I found a bilateral slip of her pelvis off of the sacrum, and, her head was subluxated, (partially dislocated), as well. I have seen her about four times now and she reports that she actually understands what it is like to not be in pain for the first time in her life. She has finally found hope.

A similar case is coming to me for the first time this week; she was actually referred to me by none other than a chiropractor.

Now what are you going to do?

Tammy Kennedy
Certified Nerve Signal Interference (NSI) Specialist

Tammy, what in the world are you talking about. Nothing you say makes any sense. Bill makes more sense than you and thats scary. You have no training and now you are treating dead people. You will be revisited by the state board. I promise. This time no one will ask you what you are doing they just will make you stop. Go to school and get a degree like the rest of us.
Bill, who would teach the Chiropractic classes at your major universities? You have a hard time thinking things thru. I recently met a young lady that was planning on being a orthopedic surgeon like her cousin. He told her if he had to do it all over again he would be a Chiropractor. But like I said earlier, keep up your rants. It is important that you continue to show your true character. In the future it will come in handy. Thank you

Thanks for stepping up to the plate for me on that one Marcus, but why won’t you answer my simple question. I tell you what, I’ll rephrase it and open it up to Tim and anyone else. If chiropractic is anything other than quackery, then why has not a single public university in our country sought fit to offer a degree? Is it possible that those of us who are working to expose chiropractic for the hoax that it is have that much influence?

You know I find it interesting Bill that you refuse to acknowledge me and my efforts in all of this.

The information I present speaks for itself, and anyone who gets stuck on my “credentials” are extremely short-sighted.

The fact that my last post, which stuck up for you as well, never even saw the light of day here is disturbing to say the least. Obviously censorship of the First Amendment is alive and well in Bryan’s little world.

As far as your question Bill about what the schools teach … as I said earlier, the schools can teach anything they want to, since after all they are their schools. Apparently that is true with the ‘regular’ universities as well.

Should those schools offer a program in Chiropractic the way it is today? … which as we all know is near verbatim to what they taught more than 100 years ago. Absolutely not!! But should those schools perhaps teach what Chiropractic passed on, that I know so much about? Probably. The probelm is that ego and professional jealousy is unfortunately ruling supreme here. Basically, if someone else, whomever that might be, can’t take the credit for the discoveries that we have been presenting for the last 50 years … well, you see the opposition I’m facing. This opposition is political clear and simple and yes, the thinking public can see that. Of course, those who oppose me will CLAIM that it is a matter of public safety, and at this point, that argument is laughable. You should know that several years ago, one of your group, (a medical doctor and surgeon in California), when I was looking for an ‘expert’ witness to come tell the Court what Chiropractic was, admitted to me that I could actually … what were the words he used? … oh yeah … VALIDATE chiropractic. He shocked me when he said that. But as we all know this is not chiropractic because they refused to teach it.

Now I don’t really expect that Bryan will let this post through, since after all he is on an unrealistic censorship kick regarding opposing the truth and free speech … so, I have already posted this blog, since July 31st, on my web site. The missing posts are still there for all to see and I will be updating that page with the recent activity which does include my comments that were barred here.

It shouldn’t take long for that page to turn up in a Google Search. And now, I have a clear cut example of the horrific failings of the established system to present to not just the people, but the legislature, the Governor, and the President as well, … and with just a click too … . Isn’t technology grand?

Tammy Kennedy
Certified Nerve Signal Interference (NSI) Specialist
(580) 402-3375

What happen to the great debate between Bill and Dr. Marzban? Still searching for a venue? Interesting that event isn’t “working out” maybe Dr. Marzban can arrange to host this at Parker university where he teaches? Just a thought, kinda seems more like oh Bill’s bluff got called and he backed down.

And Tammy, you need real help. How do you know what any school teaches, what processes a student goes through at chiropractic school or any school for that matter, you have never been so how do you know? I notice that you too tend to shy away from answering post that make very good points! That’s interesting to me. Bill probable does not respond to you in hopes thy you will stop posting you reteric

Nice try “Cam” but you are sadly mistaken. You guys work up a proposal and I will gladly make myself available for the “debate”. I look forward to the opportunity to discuss many of our concerns including senseless and completely avoidable strokes as well as the lack of a scientific basis for chiropractic. Also, might I suggest that you consider using “spellcheck” for your next post.

I’m pretty sure you are the one that originally made the challenge and Dr. Marzban agree to show. You indicated here that Brian would make the plans and it never happen. Not sure why my I got the parentheses on my name? And for the spelling errors English is my second language so feel free to treat me like a second class citizen because I came to the US for a better life. It’s just like your type to make fun of me because English is something I had learn. For the record what’s your excuse? Your first language is English and have also made errors in post. It’s obvious to me that you are the typical elitist that feels the need to tear down others when you somehow feel threatened. I’m not a chiropractor and I haven’t ever been to one but I think if you are so threatened by them I may go see what they are all about. It’s ridiculous that you would rather make fun of a persons ability to write in stead of actually answering the question.

[Regarding a debate]: For the record, Dr. Kinsinger did not indicate that “Brian would make the plans…” – Rather, he posed it to me in the form of a question (the blog trail will show this). I was unsuccessful in my efforts.

Bryan Farha
Smoke & Mirrors blog coordinator

Very true Bryan. I worded that incorrectly.

Cam. You are wrong again. I had never in my life heard of this individual (Marban) until July 7th, 2011 when “chiro said what” posed the following question.

“Hey Dr. K I think you should challenge Dr. F. Marzban or Dr. Michael Hall at Parker University to a debate. I think that would be very interesting. What do you think?”

On July 12th I then indicated that I would be up for the challenge if the details could be arranged. I will paste my exact response below.

“OCU Professor Bryan Farha, the creator of this blog, has previously offered to host such a public debate. If these individuals are willing I certainly would participate.”

So, I in fact did not issue the challenge, I merely accepted it. If you and your buddies(Tim, Vann, Shep) want to put something together, I am still ready willing and able.

Do me a favor guys, try not to schedule it during the later part of November or early December. I have a presentation on chiroquackery and its associated dangers already booked and I want to be fully prepared.

Hey Bill

I want the videotape of me performing our work returned as well as any materials that might have been sent to you along with that tape. You would have received this some time in between 2005 and June of 2008, when I was requesting that you come tell the Court what chiropractic was.

Seems to me if ever Bill had the chance to put the nail in the coffin it was then.

Do you all want to know what he told me once he had our materials in hand?

He said that he wasn’t actually any kind of expert regarding manipulative therapy.

Bill, send the mentioned materials to:

Tammy Kennedy
133 S. Burdel
Enid, OK 73703

And for the record Bill, you impress me as someone who unduly wants the stage.

Cam, as far as you believing that I have side stepped answering questions here, chances are that Bryan has been guilty of removing or blocking my posts. I have posted the blog in it’s entirety, from July 31 to September 25, which still has my answers completely intact, on my web site:

http://www.nsirtech.com/PDF%20files/CHIROPRACTIC_BLOG_SPOT.pdf

That page is actually rising much faster than I ever thought possible and is currently number six on google.

I’ll make one final update with this post to keep the record and then I’m done here. Of course, I will have to link back to the recent rhetoric from Cam and Bill since I won’t be posting that garbage, after all, that is nothing more than Bill vying for position against a greater cause … mine. As the world should be able to see by now, if he wants to debate and win, then he needs to be able to present a solution to the real issue, which of course has to do with the proper handling of the atlanto-occipital joint, which as he has admitted, he knows nothing of. Oh wait, that’s right, I’ve got that argument wrapped up already. Such a shame that Bill refused to step up and work in tandem with me; chances are that the chiropractic colleges would’ve gone to their knees had he done so.

In summary, Bill knows about the history of chiropractic; he also knows about the dangers of chiropractic, but, he has failed to “hold them accountable” for the right reason, all the while he has failed to see the log in his, and his professions own eye.

He is admittedly, (or at least to me), NO EXPERT regarding manipulative therapies, and I find it odd that he believes that he can still be found credible in the public’s eye after this post sees the light of day.

As I said Bill, return the mentioned materials to the address given. If any copies exist then they should be returned as well.

Tammy Kennedy
Certified Nerve Signal Interference (NSI) Specialist
(580) 402-3375

Dr Kinsinger I am a chiropractic physician who has the right to prescribe medication in NM. Your video is both wrong and demeaning, a question I have for you is this. How many sorry MDs hurt people? How often do people die because of medical physician mistakes? What is your vendetta? I love and care for my patients, I diagnose very well and your absurd propoganda is out of line. You disgrace medicine and yourself for your lies and vindictive deceit. There are poor physicians in every field, and you are one in yours. Zeke Brimhall, DC, APC

Vendetta? Sir, my goal is to stop the senseless deaths and permanent neurologic injuries that all too often result following chiropractic “treatment”. Chiropractic is a hoax, and a dangerous hoax at that. You and your colleagues are nothing more than 21st century snake-oil salesmen.

Dare I make one more comment here?

Bill

The senseless neck twisting you are talking about is only if the chiropractor has not the sense to understand that cracking the neck both ways is not specific in any manner whatsoever. This is what is dangerous and yes does cause strokes, at times, if done too many times, or too close together. Is there a scientific basis for that type of “treatment”? Absolutely not, except to get some, if the patient is lucky, temporary relief from the stress caused by a true subluxation. Of course when I use the term subluxation I am not talking about a chiropractic subluxation. You should know by now what I mean and if you do not then I welcome your inquiry.

As far as the snake oil salesman thing is concerned, I believe that historically it was the medical doctor who was actually guilty of that … (tongue in cheek).

Bill you should know with your training as a doctor which system of the body controls the rest.

So let’s just talk about that for a minute:

The nervous system controls what?

Take the stress off of the nervous system and what do you suppose you will get?

Now you do have to understand that not everybody focuses on those “little holes” that are between the vertebrae.

Imagine this if you can:

Too little motion between the head and the atlas,(“yes”), causes too much motion between the atlas and the axis, and this motion is not the normal “no” motion, but instead an abnormal flexion of the atlas on the axis. This happens because the head is subluxated, or partially dislocated, in relation to the atlas. Now what do you suppose happens when the atlas tilts forward as it does when the head is stuck like that?

With all your knowledge as a doctor you should be able to figure that out.

Now where is the dens located?

Are you thinking yet Bill?

What I have just shared with you is not a chiropractic concept. This understanding is exclusively an NSIR concept. Is this understanding what should be taught in chiropractic and medical colleges alike across the country? Absolutely!

Your senseless pride in your institutions and your institutional conditioning is alarming with the light so clearly shown on the obvious truth that I have just tried to teach you. When will any of you do the right thing?

You’re like an addict Bill. The first step to recovery is admitting you have a problem. The biggest problem you have at this point is that your arguement makes no sense in the light of bigger issues, and your “credentials” are going to eventually fail you. One day you may actually be asked just why you refused to refer even one victim of chiropractic, (either past or future), to the field, (NSIR), that actually understood how to effectively take the stress off of the nervous system instead of electing to only degrade the field, (Chiropractic), that did not understand how to do the same.

You’re in this for the wrong reason Bill, that much is clear.

Tammy Kennedy
Certified Nerve Signal Interference (NSI) Specialist
(580) 402-3375

Sophie Tyler has been left with permanent paralysis from the waist after having an epidural!
Life after paralysis
Sophie’s life has completely changed after the opeartion, claims her mother Sue Tyler.
“From being an outgoing teenager, her life has altered overnight and we have all had to come to terms with what has happened.
“Sophie is still taking her A-levels and hopes to then go to university, but to do so she has had to be very determined and needs a lot of support to enable her to achieve her goals,” she added.

Grace Wang can no longer walk due to an epidural while in labor.

Just sad! Shocking that people put trust in these doctors only to have there life altered forever.

Have you heard about the most comprehensive study showing that medical care is the number one killer of Americans? 800,000 to 1 million victims die each year due to preventable medical errors according the the official statistics.

http://www.whale.to/a/null9.html

This study has just been made into an award-winning documentary. It is really shocking. You might be interested in seeing it and getting a copy.

Sorry, I left off the author of the above quote. If you want to delete one, Brian, please delete the above. Here it is properly attributed:

“The wisdom of the body is responsible for 90% of the hope of patients to recover. The body has a super wisdom that is in favor of life, rather than death. This is the power that we depend on for life. All doctors are responsible for letting their patients know of this great force working within them.”

Dr. Richard Cabot, Harvard Medical School

Hello everyone this is god speaking. I understand that you are all trying to help human kind…….but it turns out that the 70 years you spend on the planet is relatively miniscule and not relevant in the scheme of things…….nobody is going to give a shit about you or anything you have contributed 1 million years from now. So instead of arguing like a bunch of pathetic little school girls. Why dont you go home ,smoke some weed , masturbate , and enjoy your life.
Peace-your one and only bff forever God.

OK, will do, Bill.

Very cool video – check it out…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_K9GmtmFOgE&feature=player_embedded

What about osteopathic neck manipulation?

I am writing in response to respectfully address your statements regarding CMT and stroke. There is neither article nor reputable study that presents a strong correlation among vertebral artery dissection and chiropractic cervical manipulation. Earlier it seemed to be a cause-effect relationship of an extremely rare event. However, as the latest research indicates, it’s more plausible to be an underlying pathology. Patients are seeking care for their symptoms (mimicking benign neck pain, headaches etc.) but may already have a VAD. The pathophysiology of this unfortunate occurrence is spacious at best, making reliable screening at the moment non-existent.

Incidence is over-inflated, correlating a direct and obscure bias towards the growing chiropractic profession. Current reputable peer-reviewed studies have concluded the incidence in 1/500,000 to 1/8,000,000 manipulations. Again correlation does not equivocate causation for any instance. The Cassidy study demonstrated the prevalence equally represents patients seeking their general practitioner for care.

Furthermore, the current understanding of a VAD has a genetic predisposition and physiological implications that weaken the vessel integrity. VAD is one of the most common causes of ischemic stroke in younger individuals. The prevalence of non-traumatic spontaneous VAD supports the reasoning that there is an underlying pathology; where individuals who make an abrupt neck position change (looking over shoulder, getting hair washed…) or sneezing, suffer from the consequences of sVAD.

Studies have also described the types of treatments that were associated with this type of stroke. They occurred from any form of chiropractic technique including ones that involved no rotation, neutral positions, or no force. Dissections at this time remain to be unfortunate and random occurrences that are not caused directly by a CMT.

I will conclude by stating the epidemiology and etiology are not well known, and further research needs to be done to attribute at risk individuals and proper screening methods. We understand that there may be an association with receiving care, but the most up to date research suggests CMT is not causally related to a VAD. The abundance of dubious and vindictive claims demonstrates questionable ethical behavior among all individuals involved, which seems rampant among pseudo-skeptics with an ill concern for true consumer protection.

Thank you Bill & Bryan for your continued education of quackery despite the negativity and insults you have to endure. I have sat here for 2 years reading the comments without posting and praying for all those who have been harmed or have had a loved one harmed by deceptive chiropractors. I for one did not have the knowledge about chiropractic until after I was offered a free adjustment. My first and last! That was 2 and 1/2 years ago. He snapped my neck so fast I didn’t have time to react. I knew as soon as he had snapped my neck something was very wrong. I haven’t ever had a headache like that and my neck became so stiff within 15 minutes. I told my husband something was wrong and I didn’t feel right. My husband immediately called and made a Doctors appointment. I had two strokes and suffer from damage to my disks, nerves in my neck and horrible headaches. ( the strokes did a lot more damage; too much to go into.) If I had only known about the dangers of chiropractic neck adjustments or IF I had done my research beforehand this would not have happened.

I have always had an interest in seeking facts about the safety of what we put into and do with our bodies…making sure my family is eating well balanced meals; properly stretching and safely exercising. That also includes finding the right medical doctors and etc…etc… I have always done research to find the facts when it comes to my family and sadly enough I hadn’t even thought about chiropractic as being dangerous to anyone. The free adjustment I had was made in a split second decision…I thought why not what’s the harm.
“Common Sense”!! Common sense makes you realize you don’t go see someone feeling great and come out hurting. I began researching and found legitimate trustworthy sites that
stated FACTS about the dangers of chiropractic adjustments. I was shocked!! and enraged that so many people had been harmed or killed by someone they trusted. The proof is out
there… but unfortunately there are still too many people who are uninformed, ‘research challenged’ or just plain gullible. Sadly you can tell them about the facts even give them the links to the articles to prove your point but without the means to obtain it themselves they will always be vulnerable. Links get removed all the time “Error 404 Not Found” and when people write back hatefully that your links are bad it frustrates me to no end because they are either ‘research challenged’, just plain lazy to go and search for that article or they are one of the dishonest people who knows the reason why the article was removed or should I say lost. (What I mean by that last part is: articles that have been posted on pro chiropractic sites, in pro chiropractic forums or other pro chiropractic sites stating facts about their knowledge of strokes… and when someone refers to that article to prove a point…it is removed… it
doesn’t stay posted for long.) I know enough about dead links to go and search through the archives and find the article. On the internet nothing is ever permanently removed…just stored somewhere else.

I’m sorry this is so long. Keep up the great work Bill, and Bryan thank you for posting this article.

This is for the Comment posted by God almighty, Shame on you.

Prayers go out to all of the victims and their loved ones. God Bless & keep you and yours.

Think of going to see some show homes here in Calgary there are a lot of nice places to see.

anesthesiologist kill thousands and harm thousands more. T
hey even catch people on fire. Why are there not more people on here raising hell about that?

BILL KINSINGER

I am apalled to read the rubbish and the totally false info you have posted on this website. I challenge you to an open debate about the harms you believe DCs adjustments can cause, for all Visceral diseases that have scientific evidence of somato visceral and viscero somatic cause effect relationship. Your statements here are totally baseless. Pic your top ten contentions against the Palpatary Musculoskeletal findings as well as Vertebra by Vertebra Nerve by Nerve diseases and the harms or benefits of chiropractic adjustments. In addition, lets also look at chiropractic adjustments versus medical care. Lets just take two, Migraines and Imitrex or Sumatriptan or Chiropracic care, as well as LBP and Failed Back surgeries and chropractic adjustments from LBP. I promise to not use one chiropractic journal and only refereed, peer reviewed Index Scientific Literature. It is clear from what you write that you have never read one single article. The drugs you prescribe for any thing DCs do, cause a lot more harm than any strokes or vertebral artery damage or any side effects DCs adjustments cause. And Scientific Literature is full of the harms of drugs. Have you ever looked at the Medwatch Killer drugs, that your MD friends still prescribe. You should be ashamed of posting baseless lies. Again, I challenge you to a 48 minute each side debate, vertebra by vertebra, nerve by nerve, your accusations and my defense. I will provide you a 96 slide powerpoint – 4 per vertebra of the Indexed Medical Literature I will use to share my findings.

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