File photo by Matt Strasen

    

Scott        Brad      Clay        Ron        Nick        Ford

QUESTION: My new neighbors recently moved in. When we met them they said they had dogs and to let them know if their barking bothered us. A year has gone by and the dogs have continued to bark loudly. It has not bothered me, but it is really starting to bug my husband. Should I say something now, or is it too late to bring the subject up?

NICK TANKERSLEY, 30s, Web Editor, NewsOK: I am able to answer this question from the perspective of someone who owns a dog that barks — a lot. Since your neighbors have said that if the dog barking becomes a nuisance you should let them know, then you should let them know. If they didn’t care whether or not their dog drove you slowly insane then they wouldn’t have been so straightforward about you talking to them. I’d wager that calmly explaining that the barking has been excessive lately won’t cause any ruffles in your relationship and will yield some sort of resolution that will be to your satisfaction.

With that in mind, it’s also important to realize that there’s not much someone can do when they have an obnoxious outside dog. Mine is a delight inside, calm and quiet. The minute she gets outside her brain melts into a frenzy of yapping. It’s reasonable that your neighbors will regulate when the dog is outside. We don’t let ours outside for extended periods late at night or early in the morning unless we are out there with them. During the day if we’re home we attempt to calm the barking down while she’s outside. We have a low percentage of success but it does work sometimes. I urge you to see if your neighbors are making an effort before going back with another complaint, if necessary. Check to see if the dog is out less often and/or for shorter durations of time. Listen for their voice to come echoing over the fence with a “will you shut up, already?” I tend to lace mine with a few more profanities because it’s a dog and doesn’t know the difference.

Outside of strapping a box to the dog’s throat that shocks them each time they bark (doesn’t sound very pleasant, does it?) minimizing their time outside may be the only option.

FORD SANGER, 30s, local businessman: Your neighbors knew this would be an issue or they would not have mentioned it when they moved next to you. I would take them up on their original offer and discuss the situation.

You also could discuss the barking at your local homeowners meeting and try and get direction from the board members on neighborhood guidelines regarding excessive noise. There is no reason for you or your husband to feel trapped in the situation, as communication can usually fix the issue.

BRAD MCNEILL, 40s, owner, A&B Paving: If dogs are constantly barking then you need to say something to the neighbors. If they bark whenever you go out in your backyard then you need to say something to the neighbors. If the dogs bark at your kids playing in the backyard then you need to say something to your neighbors.

You live in your house and shouldn’t be a prisoner in it. Be cordial and “neighborly” when you discuss things with the neighbors. Don’t be angry or you will create a problem that is far worse than a barking dog. It sounds like they are aware of the potential problem so they should understand. If the problem continues, then call the police. They can get cited for disturbing the peace and that will get their attention.

SCOTT KINNARD, 50s, chief executive officer of A La Mode Inc.: It’s obvious from their comments the neighbors knew their dogs could be annoying when they moved in. So, they won’t be surprised when they’re told the barking has become a problem. If they ask about the delayed reaction, it’s appropriate to let them know their dogs were tolerated as long as possible.

CLAY HEALEY, 50s, Owner, AIC Title Service, LLC: It is never too late to bring it up! Your neighbors went to the trouble of telling you to contact them, so by golly shoot ‘em a friendly email or initiate a friendly lawn conversation and mention that lately the dogs have been barking an awful lot; is there anything you can do? They initiated the discussion in the first place, so it seems ultimately proper to bring up the issue if you do have a problem.

RON JAMES, 60s, independent oil producer: Your husband has every right to enjoy the comfort and tranquility of the home. If your neighbors are taking that away from him by not controlling their dogs, then something has to give. He should go next door and let the neighbors know that the dogs are a real problem. Hopefully, they are like the vast majority of neighbors here in Oklahoma and they will take the necessary steps to quiet the neighborhood.

Bad dogs have bad parents. This problem is their responsibility to correct.

QUESTION: I have been married for six months. There are times when I really would like to stay at home at night and my wife has this “really great” party she wants to drag me to. Is there a way for me to tell her to take a girlfriend and go on and have a good time or am I really required to attend all functions with her?

NICK TANKERSLEY, 30s, Web editor, NewsOK: I can only assume as to what the other answers for this question are going to be; you should just tell her you don’t want to go and trust that your wife isn’t the type of lunatic who comes unhinged for the least possible offense. That’s what I would say to you, but I think, just for the sake of science, that I’ll give you the OPPOSITE advice — something to compare to the majority opinion.

Keep your mouth shut. Every time she wants to go anywhere you should jump to your feet, glad that this beautiful woman has decided to include you in her world. The fact that you wouldn’t be at her immediate attention for any such social gathering implicates you as failure as a husband and a man. What is it you’re bringing to the table? When was the last time you had a really great party to go to? She’s out there meeting people, keeping things relevant and you want to stay in and watch the last four episodes of Law and Order: SVU on USA? Why? You already know that nothing’s going to happen between Olivia and Elliott and if they don’t have a prime suspect in the first 30 minutes whomever they introduce in the last half is going to be the culprit. Is that how you want to spend your evenings? Awash in a predictable sea of procedural crime? I didn’t think so. So put your pants back on, find some nice socks and get out there and stand by your woman, and above all, keep your mouth shut.

FORD SANGER, 30s, local businessman: As you mentioned you have been married for six months. You will be faced with these types of situations for the rest of your life.

My suggestion is to pick your battles and if this is one event you feel you need to pass on that is your decision. Just remember when the big game or some event comes around and you want to go to or watch, your wife might have other plans for your evening together. You can always look back at this party and say “remember when I went to your party?”

It’s a give and take and hopefully you can look back in your marriage and say you gave more than you took.

BRAD MCNEILL, 40s, owner, A&B Paving: I would like to first welcome you to marriage. Marriage is wonderful, but if you want it to be successful it will require a lot of work. This means sacrificing your needs or wants for things she wants to do sometimes. When you want to watch that football game or go play golf on a beautiful Saturday afternoon you will be glad you did. Marriage is give and take. Put on a smile and good attitude and go to that party, there will be dividends in return.

SCOTT KINNAIRD, 50s, chief executive officer of Al La Mode Inc.: Seriously? You’ve been married for six months. You don’t get to ask your wife to take a stand-in to a party until you’ve been married for at least six years. If you make it that long. Good luck. You’re going to need it.

CLAY HEALEY, 50s, owner, AIC Title Service, LLC: I may be the wrong man to answer this question because it so happens that I married my best friend, and I love her, and I want to spend my time with her. So when she asks me to go somewhere, I say “yes” because it is preferable to spending the time without her.

Coming from this perspective, I say: Put on your man pants and go wherever your wife wants you to go. It isn’t hard, it doesn’t take much time, and you are with your best friend — your wife! (And son, if you don’t think the ideal relationship has all of the above, you probably shouldn’t have gotten married in the first place.)

RON JAMES, 60s, independent oil producer: A mere six months ago you took a solemn oath to stick with your mate through “good times and bad times”. This is a perfect example of real “bad times”.

The only way to squirm out of this commitment is to claim a disabling “Act Of God”. Which, in my case, occurs every week. Some of these acts include: rain and/or unseasonably hot weather, the passing of an unknown, but very dear relative, floods anywhere in the world, labor strikes in Illinois … or the persistent rumors of Armageddon.

Force majeure is your only hope. But, if it’s any consolation, I’ll see you there.

QUESTION: My child plays team sports and it has been a great place for him to learn to play by the rules and to learn respect for his teammates and opponents. It has not been a great way for him to watch other parents yelling at the referee and the coaches and questioning every referee call. What makes a parent put so much emphasis on winning or seeing his child play that he becomes totally oblivious to everyone else? Should such a parent be asked to leave the game?

NICK TANKERSLEY, 30s, Web editor, NewsOK:

I played many, many little league sports. I began at the age of 3 and continued through multiple soccer, baseball, basketball and, eventually, football seasons a year. I also refereed soccer for a 10-and-under team for a couple of years, so I have seen exactly what you’re talking about and I have been at the receiving end of many parental tantrums. While I can’t pretend to know why an individual parent would act like this, I can say that when they do, there is nothing more satisfying than sending them packing.

I remember when I was 8, my cousin played for a really skilled team that was in an age group a couple of years ahead. The team was known for having a very vocal coach. During one game the coach lost it and laid into the referee, who said that if he stepped over the sideline one more time he would be expelled. The ref’s bluff was called and then immediately was revealed not to be a bluff. The coach was ejected from the game; he retreated to the parking lot, grabbed a pair of binoculars and attempted to coach the game through one of those giant ’80s cellphones talking with his wife, who was still down at the sidelines.

Many spectators go to college and professional games and act like animals, screaming at every call, booing whomever they please and basically just being part of the mob. What I think is that when those same people get to a little league game, their brains are unable to process the difference between the two sporting events. It’s as though the very act of being around a competitive sporting competition triggers some deep down mutation that turns them into freaks, and to a certain degree, we cultivate that in people as a culture.

We pride ourselves in Oklahoma on being the loudest fans, the most intense fans, and also are very vocal about how lousy the officiating is in basically every game. Once those traits are wired in, it is hard not to flip that switch the minute a whistle is blown, starting regulation play.

FORD SANGER, 30s, local businessman:

I can understand the emphasis on winning and seeing that a parent’s child plays in the match. I do not agree that a parent has the right to yell at the referee and the coaches. Parents with that much passion and emotion need to direct it positively into the child, rather then letting everyone else hear their thoughts.

If the parent truthfully feels that their child is good enough to possibly achieve a calling in sports, professional or collegiately, then they need to be working with the appropriate instructors and developing a plan. If they are there to just yell and scream on a Saturday or Sunday, maybe they are better off being asked to leave so they are not yelling at the instructors that are trying to teach their children how to exist with others.

JOEY STIPEK, 30s, NewsOK’s Online Communities intern:

Parents get worked up about sports for the same reasons they get worked up over their child’s academic performance in school: in hopes their child will compensate for their own shortcomings as an adult. There’s nothing wrong with wanting the best for your child, but parents tend to lose focus of the situation when it becomes more about being competitive with other parents on your child’s team, or whether you’re worried about your status in the community. If this is the case, maybe the parents should re-evaluate why they have an intense interest in a child’s succeeding in a team sport.

If the parent gets out of hand with swearing and screaming constantly, then they should be asked to leave the premises.

BRAD MCNEILL, 40s, owner, A&B Paving:

I think most parents need to take a deep breath and understand this is little league, involving children, and not highly paid athletes. However, some people become unhinged when watching their little Johnnys play ball, and we have all seen them behave as if winning is the only thing in life. There is nothing wrong with winning and, personally, I believe the scoreboard teaches winning and losing just like everything else in life.

However, there are extremes to everything, and losing is not the end of the world; usually we learn from our losses. Needless to say, having a conversation about etiquette with these people may be a fruitless endeavor. Asking them to leave would be a high-risk situation that probably would not end well. No matter what league, in any city across America, you will find this temperamental parent, so you can’t hide from it. I would encourage you to speak to your children about the parent’s behavior and illustrate how silly they look yelling at the referees or coaches. This would be a quality “teachable moment” on how NOT to behave.

SCOTT KINNAIRD, 50s, chief executive officer of Al La Mode Inc.:

Whether or not a parent should be asked to leave a child’s sporting event due to their behavior must be decided on a case-by-case basis. However, talking to your child about that parent’s poor behavior is actually a great learning opportunity. Balanced people attend their children’s games for the enjoyment of watching their children play a sport. Imbalanced people lose sight of what’s important, focus on performance metrics and aim their suppressed rage at the mistakes of unpaid volunteers. Those games are often a great place to point out examples of behavior you want your child to avoid.

CLAY HEALEY, 50s, Owner, AIC Title Service, LLC:

What a great question about parents’ actions at sporting events! After coaching more than 1,500 football, basketball, and baseball games and having two great sons who also participated in sports, you can imagine that I might have something to say about this! In my experience, parents were much less of a problem in football and basketball; maybe there was some rumbling about how much time a child was getting on the field, but never as loony as baseball. Good Lord, those people who involved their children in baseball just flat-out lost their minds! I’ve seen more fights at baseball games than anywhere else.

You, as a parent, are responsible for knowing your child. It is your responsibility to place them with a team that matches his or her ability. If you ignore your child’s natural ability, and place them with a team that is too advanced, you just might be setting them up for failure. Is it the child’s fault? NEVER. Give your child a chance to do well and do not set them up for failure.

But as to your question of why: Why do parents act like this at sporting events, setting bad examples in an environment that is designed to teach children sportsmanship and teamwork? Misplaced anger, projection of parental wants and desires — who can really get into the mind of someone who is acting crazy? The powder keg generally explodes when a child is placed in a situation of constantly “failing” in front of everybody at every turn, such as when a child is placed on a team that isn’t right for them. But there would be no explosion without the helping hand of quite a few nuts out there. I have seen new wives beaten with bats by ex-wives, fathers storming the dugout and hitting the coach, mothers on the same team fighting in the stands, fathers from opposite teams fighting in parking lots — this is clearly not the work of rational people!

So what do you do? Please leave them alone. They are irrational. A powder keg that will explode. Remember, this is about the kids. Humiliating or beating up little Billy’s dad in front of Billy and his teammates is not a good thing. Just walk away.

Ask your coach after the game — not at the ball field — to ask the parent to find a new team for the child. If the coach won’t, do it yourself by finding a new team for your child. Don’t whine about your child not getting to play with his friends; just get him off the team. You might not like this answer, but that is how you shield your child from the parents who are acting out and behaving poorly at games. Be the better person, swallow your anger, and remember that this is a positive lesson your kid will quietly learn — that you ignore irrational people and take action yourself to find a better spot. This is a great chance to teach your kid, and maybe even yourself, that we all have control in our own lives and do not have to suffer fools, nuts or crazies to participate in the sports and events we love.

RON JAMES, 60s, independent oil producer:

At the heart of this issue is that same old problem that is way too common today. Showing respect and courtesy to another person just seems to be out of vogue. Exactly why should a young athlete act respectfully when his or her parent will not show respect for a coach’s decision or a referee’s call? The cost of winning can exceed the benefit of playing. I do think that an abusive parent should be asked to leave the game.

Editor’s Note: The 20-40-60 etiquette women first answered this question in print in last Thursday’s Mood section. Find their answers online at Mood.NewsOK.com. Here is the men’s take:

QUESTION: I was recently invited to a wedding reception in Oklahoma City. Attire for the event said “Business Casual.”

What does that mean? For men: Slacks or jeans? And silk shirt and jacket, no tie? Golf shirt and jacket, no tie? Casual shirt and tie, jacket? Golf shirt, no tie, no jacket?

For women: Slacks and pretty blouse? Slacks or skirt with a jacket? Church dress? Tunic top and jeans?

What would you wear?

Nick Tankersley. (Photo by Helen Ford Wallace).

20s: Nick Tankersley, Web Editor, Newsok: The trick with business casual is dressing in a way that is comfortable but not to lead others to believe that you don’t have anything else clean to wear.

The goal is to be able to transition from fast-paced office to some sort of outdoor recreational activity without much of an issue. That’s what the Dockers’ commercials would have me believe.

The way I decide business casual is a two-fold process.

First, I think, what would I wear if I were going to a formal business meeting? Then I think, how would that choice be affected by a couple of whiskeys?

Tie? Nope, that’s getting wrenched free first shot I get. Any shirt requiring cuff links? Hardly, it’s like wearing cotton handcuffs. Pressed slacks can stay. If I feel like annoying myself every time I look in the mirror I’ll go with a polo shirt (just not for me); otherwise it’s a button up. The jacket is a toss-up. I do enjoy a good jacket but it really is the first article of clothing to come off as soon as I get in the door. It’s like you’re just taking it to your workplace to hang up until it’s time to go.

Last are the shoes. No sneakers, sandals, high heels (unless you’re a woman or work in a really progressive workplace) or any shoe you would wear to protect your foot against some sort of farm accident.

If you’re not relaxed it’s not casual, if you feel comfortable enough to kick of your shoes and take a nap in the middle of the office then it’s too casual.

Ford Sanger. (Photo by Helen Ford Wallace).

30s: Ford Sanger, local businessman: Business casual should look appropriate and is a classic look rather than trendy. For men, I would wear slacks with a button down or even a nice polo shirt. Wear leather shoes, belt and dark socks. It never hurts to slightly overdress. Men can always wear the tie, and if no one else is wearing a tie, you can discreetly remove yours. Everything should be clean, well pressed and not show wear.

Scott Kinnaird. (Photo provided).

40s: Scott Kinnaird, chief executive officer of al la mode, inc.: Apparently these days business-casual means, “all of the above.” I’ve seen every combination of clothing imaginable deemed business-casual under the auspices of modern fashion critics. But, ultimately fashion choices are personal. And, personally I believe the business half of business-casual requires slacks and a jacket.

Clay Healey. (Photo by Helen Ford Wallace).

50s Clay Healey, owner, AIC Title Service, LLC: When asked about the proper attire for any given situation, I remember back to what my mama told me growing up: It’s always better to be over-dressed than under-dressed.

With that said, “business casual” is easy: It is code for looking crisp, clean, neat and classic. You can’t go wrong with neatly pressed pants paired with a long-sleeved, button down shirt or a fine wool sweater. Go home immediately and change if your outfit includes jeans, wrinkles or stains. A leather belt and shoes will quietly class up your ensemble. Ties are not generally recommended for business casual, but as this is a wedding, I would choose to wear a tie, or if no tie, at the very least a nice jacket. Compliment your hostess by arriving slightly overdressed. She has gone to so much trouble to make this a perfect event; help this gracious lady out by looking classy and stylish.

Ron James. (Photo by Helen Ford Wallace).

60s Ron James, independent oil producer: Of all the questions so far, this response will prove my seniority the most. The term “business” means suit and tie. If your suit is at the cleaners, you may wear a navy blue blazer and charcoal slacks.

To ask an etiquette question, e-mail helen.wallace@cox.net. For more 20-40-60 etiquette, go to blog.newsok.com/partiesextra.

(The 20-30-40-50-60 men take on a new question about gym etiquette. Newcomer/guest Todd Pendleton weighs in with them today.)

QUESTION: Are there etiquette rules for the gym? Since these rules are not posted at my gym, my questions are these:  Should I always I always wipe the machines off after I use them? Can I save my machine by putting a towel or water bottle by it? And how about the weights that other people put on, should they remove them when they are finished? Is it ok to talk on my cell phone or watch television while working out?

20s—NICK TANKERSLEY, Web Editor, NewsOK: I can’t tell you how many workouts I’ve spent lost in speculation over whether I am being a good gym-mate or not. Actually, next to watching Die Hard on AMC, trying to make sure my weight room etiquette is appropriate is my favorite way to pass exercise time.

I have only been able to come to a few concrete conclusions about gym rules. Some of them have very important reasons and others are just polite gestures to other self-improvement masochists. The most important thing in any gym, or any social situation really, is to get a read of the group that regularly attends. The gym where I work out is pretty laid back and I go at low traffic times. For that reason I can be fairly lax on things like machine saving and the immediate wipe-down. If I do workout in a bigger crowd, however, I must adjust my attitude towards gym etiquette. Here is a list of the most universal and

respectful rules I have come up with:

1. Always put up everything you get out. If it was on a rack when you got there it should be on a rack when you leave.

2. A machine is only saved if you are in the act of using it. Unless you come to a polite agreement with the other interested party, if you get up and do something else, then, it isn’t your machine anymore no matter how many stinky sweat towels you put on it.

3. When you are done with a machine wipe it down thoroughly. The human body is not quite the wonderland that John Meyer would have us believe. Doing sit-ups in someone’s power-squat sweat is not an ideal workout environment. If it is non-busy day I have been known to leave a machine in stank condition while I rotate exercises but if there is the chance that someone may use the machine after a set then I give it a wipe down.

4. Don’t try to do every exercise when there are others there. The most annoying thing in a gym is when someone bounces from machine to machine, weight to weight without any acknowledgement of the people around them. Circuit training is a good idea but only when you’re not in everyone else’s way.

5. Don’t leer at people. Whether you’re “admiring” someone’s physique or amazed at his or her barbarisms when working out, exercise can be a very unflattering and self-conscious activity. Let people work out their way and you yours, staring at people is a sure way to make the environment very uncomfortable for everyone.

6. The showers are not your personal bathrooms. There are so many deeply disturbing situations that have led to this conclusion that I don’t wish to share them here.

7. Always ask before you change the channel on a TV. John McClain scaling the air ducts of the Nakatomi Plaza building is the perfect stimulus for my cardio time. King of Queens is not. Having one suddenly shift to the other is a good way to take all the wind out of an exercise.

30s —FORD SANGER, local businessman: There are etiquette rules at the gym. Always wipe off the machines after you use them. I think you can save your machine by putting a towel or water bottle on it but it needs to be used within a reasonable amount of time.

Regarding cell phone use during gym time: I would say it is acceptable but there is nothing more frustrating for someone to be talking loud for an extended period of time while they walk on a treadmill or work out. Are you going to the gym to get into shape or get health or to socialize? Many people are going to the gym to get healthy and are concentrating on the task at hand. Get in, be respectful of others time, practice good hygiene, get in shape and get out.

40s—TODD PENDLETON, Art director, The Oklahoman: Great question! I think you should always wipe off equipment after each use, especially if sweating a lot (which tends to happen with a good workout). There are usually spray bottles and towels available for this. Most of the gyms I have been to don’t  encourage “saving” certain machines. If there are more than a few members present, it keeps someone else from using it.

One should always take the weights off the rack after use. It is really difficult (and inconvenient) for lighter lifters to lift heavier weights off the bars. The only problem to me concerning TV and cell phones in the gym are that they are distracting to you during your workout. This could cause prolonged time at work stations and sabotage the flow of your workout. If on the phone it’s probably a good idea to go somewhere more private. Fellow exercisers will appreciate this.

50s(really, only 49)—SCOTT KINNAIRD,CEO of al la mode, inc.: I think the same etiquette rules apply in the gym as any other public place — the same rules we were all taught in the first grade — clean up your mess, leave things as you found them, and be aware of others and don’t distract them with selfish behavior.  In gym-specific situations like reserving and wiping down machines, I think it’s always best to remember “When in Rome” and follow the house rules.

60s—RON JAMES, Independent oil producer: I haven’t been to a gym for a workout since Junior High.  I remember doing some push-ups prior to participating in the Beaver Cow Chip Celebration.  My fellow hurlers and the friendly people of Beaver didn’t seem to mind just where you left your mess.

YOU ASK! WE ANSWER! YOU DECIDE!

In 20-30-40-50-60 Etiquette Extra, the men of various ages answer whether a woman should get her own drink at a cocktail party.

QUESTION: Recently I attended a formal party at the Country Club by myself. During the cocktail hour, when I went to the bar to get myself a drink, I was the only woman in line at the bar and I was surrounded by men who looked at me like I was intruding. My question:  Should I ask a man to stand in line to get me a drink at an event like this or is it perfectly fine to get my own cocktail?

20’s….NICK TANKERSLEY’S ANSWER…Web Editor, NewsOk….Since my family’s social position with the city blue bloods had slipped considerably by the time I was old enough to be aware of social situations, I have never been in a country club. I’ve played a few rounds of golf at some public courses but I hardly think my experience is beneficial in this regard (or in any regard, really).

The only scenario I can conjure that would make the derisive looks of the men in line make sense is the following: The men you were in line with were not humans, they were aliens. They had been selected to infiltrate human society and learn our ways. This particular cadre of pod people were commissioned to disguise themselves as the Oklahoma City elite and ingratiate themselves to the country club crowd.

The real problem, however, is that the vast distance of the alien spies’ planet from ours means that they only get broadcasts and information from television and radio from the 1930′s, 40′s and 50′s. Because of this they have only have that gender segregated time period on which to base their illusions. So what you were seeing was a group of aliens disguised as human men trained to behave as though they extras in a rat pack movie.

The idea of having a man go to the bar to get you a drink to avoid snotty looks from other men is so misogynistic that human beings raised in the modern era could not be the ones responsible.

30’s…FORD SANGER’S ANSWER…local businessman… I do think it is perfectly fine for you to get your own cocktail. However, I do think the men should be practicing proper etiquette and offering to get you one instead.

40’s…SCOTT KINNARD’S ANSWER…CEO of a la mode, inc….Not so long ago, especially at a venue as steeped in tradition as the Country Club, a lady would be expected to ask a man to get her a drink, whether that included waiting in a line or not.  There was a time she wouldn’t even be permitted in most Country Club bars without a male escort.  Thankfully or sadly, depending on your point of view, all of that has changed.  Not only is it perfectly fine for today’s lady to retrieve her own cocktail.  It’s smart.  That’s where all the men are!

50’s…CLAY HEALEY’S ANSWER…owner AIC Title Service, LLC…. I don’t know the Country Club where you were, but any man who would not help a lady get her drink is a jerk.  You need to simply walk up and get your drink with your head held high and never allow trash along the way to bother you.   Indeed, in all aspects of life, hold your head high and step over the trash!

60’s…RON JAMES’ ANSWER…Independent Oil Producer…  The ground beneath chauvinism erodes away, albeit too slowly for most.  I would think that a gentleman standing in line would have greeted you and asked if he could get the drink for you.  Or maybe not….with equality being considered.  Regardless, what is missing in this situation is a kind gesture or a warm greeting to make another person feel comfortable.

Personally, ladies are a wonderful addition to any line.  They seem to bring the art of conversation with them….making the line so much shorter.

YOU ASK! WE ANSWER! YOU DECIDE!

EDITOR’S NOTE: In this week’s 20-40-60 etiquette extra, the men answer a bonus question about poker etiquette. In light of recent years’ popularity of the game, online, on TV and among friends, it’s fitting that 20-40-60 etiquette would address proper card-playing etiquette of the game.

It’s not the Wild West, so typically people don’t play the game with pistols by their sides like they do in the movies, but there still is a proper decorum to follow. Callie, Lillie-Beth and Helen answer too!
QUESTION: Is there such a thing as poker etiquette? I was playing in a friendly family game of poker and my cousin played out of turn. Her dad strictly told her to wait her turn to bet and to totally pay attention because money was involved. I thought it was just a game.

20s: Nick Tanskersley: I can imagine that the father’s rebuff was a little harsh, but many people take poker very seriously, and that’s what makes it fun for them. I can’t stand playing a card game just “for fun”, I like the competitive nature of it, and that’s why I engage in it in the first place. There are plenty of ways to pass the time, but this is a completive game with an end goal and because of that, the rules should be followed.

There is an etiquette to almost every card game, but especially one where there is money involved. Many casinos set up very strict rules about table behavior, and going out of turn in those situations would almost surely get you a warning with an ejection waiting at the next mistake.

At a home game it may be a little more lax but the turn-based system of a poker game is essential to the overall strategy of the players. Perhaps one player is playing another’s bluff or is working for a bigger pot; if someone bets out of turn it could really derail that entire strategy as it adds extra money and factors to that round that should not be there.

It’s one thing to have fun while playing a game and it’s another to be annoying and think that rules don’t apply because it is only a game. Most games have rules for a reason, and without those rules all you really have is a bunch of people throwing cards at each other. It’s the same as when you were a kid and playing tag or some other game and someone would just start making up their own rules.

There is a universal set of rules for any game, and to break those rules means you’ll at least be admonished. If you are looking at playing a game where you are allowed to make up what you want to do as you go along, try some solitaire.

30s: Ford Sanger:  Anytime a game is being played there are rules/etiquette to that game — rules that need to be followed, especially if money is involved in a poker game with family members. What makes any game fun is the strategy within the rules of the game.

40s: Scott Kinnaird: When money is involved, it’s never “just a game”. But, even if there isn’t money involved, and regardless of the game, parents should teach their children to play ethically and by the rules. If the rules happen to be “no rules,” that’s fine, too.

50s: Clay Healey: All games have rules. One of the biggest problems we have today is that folks forget rules, why they exist and when they apply. Although this is a friendly card game, the rule is to play in turn. The rule exists for a reason — it affects the next person’s bet and hence the outcome of the game.

I understand that one might think that different rules apply when the game is a friendly family game, but when money is involved, the rules must strictly apply. And maybe if one never learns to play well with family, how will one ever learn to play well with others?

Remember that poker is not just about who has the best hand. It is about reading your opponent and determining whether she is bluffing or not. This cannot be done when players bet out of turn. Her dad was correct!

60s: Ron James:  I don’t have a good one on this. I don’t play, but it occurs to me that poker is not a friendly, idle game.

So, if you’re going to “play” it, then competition is your setting, follow the rules and win. Then go chat — if you’re still talking.

From the regular 20-40-60 etiquette columnists:
CALLIE’S ANSWER: YES! In poker it is a big no- no to play out of turn. This could affect the rest of the players bet, although it is just a game. Don’t take yourself too seriously!
LILLIE-BETH’S ANSWER: When I was little and my parents taught me to play poker, we learned that in the old days of the Wild West, you could get shot for playing out of turn or not playing by other poker rules. At 7 or so, that made a big impression. Even though they were joking with us and it was all in fun, I’ve always kept in mind that when I play poker, some people might be taking it way more seriously than I do.

You should be aware that when you’re playing with real money, people are serious about the game. It’s best to know the basic etiquette rules — don’t bet/play out of turn, don’t reveal your cards while the hand is still being played out and know what hands beat what as you play (even if you need a cheat sheet).

Although this is quoting the obvious cliché, even country singer Kenny Rogers alluded to gambling etiquette rules once in his song “The Gambler:” “You’ve got to know when to hold ‘em, know when to fold ‘em, know when to walk away and know when to run. You never count your money when you’re sittin’ at the table. There’ll be time enough for counting when the dealin’s done.”
HELEN’S ANSWER: I was taught the rules of poker at an early age by parents who had heard stories of people being shot in friendly poker games, so they taught me to never touch the money or cards of anyone else at the card table and to concentrate on the game of cards. When money is involved, people tend to get possessive. So, truly, even young people can learn the rules and how to follow them correctly.

I think that the dad was correct in making her bet in turn. Many card players and game players choose not to play card games with people who do not observe the common courtesies of paying attention and/or playing and betting when they are supposed to. All games, with rules, should be followed.