Comments on: Readers buck up about buck limits

By: a quall

a quall — Thu, 20 Dec 2012 20:11:34 +0000

Just an FYI for Hal-Tulsa, I have seen nothing that said any biologists suggested the proposal for the buck limit be shifted to bowhunters from rifle hunters. All I have seen is that it has been proposed by the “Wildlife commission” which is a group of businessmen appointed by the Governor. In this case mostly bankers and insurance executives. I’m pretty sure they are not game biologists although a couple may be hunters (not sure).

1- Lawyer
1- Banker
1- Independent Insurance Executive
1- Lawyer, Pre-paid legal services
1- Lawyer
1- trial lawyer
1- farmer rancher/sportsman
1- Transportation company CEO

http://www.wildlifedepartment.com/aboutodwc/district.htm

The commission is not required to have a comment period on rule changes and not required to have meetings to discuss rule changes so at least some are interested in hearing different views prior to decision making. Sometimes the commission acts on comments from the public , sometimes they act on comments from employees of the department but are not required to act based on popularity or biologist recommendations or input from any other source so we are fortunate to have a chance to discuss this issue before it becomes law.

By: Drew

Drew — Thu, 20 Dec 2012 18:57:54 +0000

Statistical Data suggests that if the measure causes more hunters to bow hunt instead of rifle hunt, more big bucks will be lost and never checked in and could result in fewer big bucks. I think someone called the measure a “no brainer” , that I agree with, no brain power used on this one.
Forcing more people to bow hunt that aren’t archery proficient, big mistake. Of course you wouldn’t care about that either.
A study in New Jersey in the 1980s determined that 57% of all deer shot with a bow are never recovered or found.
The percentage may be a little better with crossbows and experienced hunters but those being forced to bow hunt because they can’t hunt rifle season aren’t going to be the experts. Crossbows are no more accurate (some are less accurate) than the bows in the NJ study. All except the very top of the line crossbows (very expensive) have a significant drop caused by the bolt not aligning with the direction of string travel.
A study by QDMA with modern compound bows and crossbows in Maryland indicated that only 20% of deer shot with a bow were never recovered and there was not a statistically significant difference in crossbows and compound bows.
What wasn’t included in the study is the increased stamina of large bucks compared to does and fawns and for those that have never shot a big buck , they are harder to kill, especially during rut.
So With the QDMA study I say at least 20% minimum of all deer wounded with a bow are lost and never counted. Based on what I know about big bucks, the number would be more like 50%.
So, NO the measure will not necessarily provide additional big bucks in “our” herd and could provide less.
I’d say forcing rifle hunters to hunt bow season instead is a BAD idea for our deer herd.

By: Drew

Drew — Thu, 20 Dec 2012 18:18:13 +0000

Pretty sure you can’t be a biologist without data.

By: Hal, Tulsa

Hal, Tulsa — Thu, 20 Dec 2012 13:11:57 +0000

I like the idea. I could care less about data. If the biologists suggest it I support it. If it will provide additional mature bucks in our deer herd (which it will) I support the measure.

By: Drew

Drew — Wed, 19 Dec 2012 22:30:55 +0000

Brian,
I agree with most of your comments and your reasons for sticking with the present 2 buck limit. On well managed land, you can grow as good a buck as the land allows. Since you do practice some QDM you also know that by rifle season, the bucks you see are often not the bucks that you managed the previous 11 months but the mature bucks travel considerable distances during rut and by Rifle season may be many miles from where they began their rut.
This works both ways , especially in drought years. Last year I managed, photographed and babied a group of 8-9-10 points for 11 months and by the very beginning of Muzzleloader season they left in search of does (which do not exist in sustainable numbers on this land which borders “brown is down” and probably even night with light hunters but during the rut, I photographed 24 bucks (2 does) that used a 12 acre area where I have some cameras and do not allow access by livestock. Naturally many of these were “drought bucks” that didn’t have high nutrition food plots all summer like my bachelor groups had but stunted “basket” racks from spending all summer in cattle range that is grazed to the bone during droughts. I ended up sticking with my self imposed point limit on a 155# eight point but he had a small rack compared to the deer that had been on clover , cowpeas and minerals all winter, spring and summer.
Since you mentioned you do some QDM (I don’t know where your land is) you may be interested in the “soil test” that if you don’t already do, will help grow bigger bucks. Once the rut starts, only having does will keep them around but determining what the deficiencies and managing the soil nutrition and vegetative nutrition accordingly will grow bigger bucks and bigger racks (as you know the nutrition is used to grow the body first and then the rack).
My land is severely deficient in Calcium Carbonate (lime) that is necessary to harden antlers. Antlers in velvet are nearly 100% protein and require calcium and phos at approx. 2:1 ratio to complete growth. This Calcium and Phosphorus cannot be supplied by food because antlers grow so fast bucks cannot eat enough to fully meet the needs to grow large antlers and once the body has stored and completed growth (and conditioning) calcium and phosphorus are absorbed from skeletal and muscle to complete the antler growth process. This can and does often create osteoporosis in bucks at late summer and often leaves them weak and susceptible to predators. They will recover quickly if nutrition is available but if not some will die or be more susceptible to disease or predation.
In order to grow antlers to their genetic potential this means that the nutritional needs for prime body conditioning and growth must be met during spring and early summer before the extreme stress of growing large antlers gets in the fast growth stage.
Most natural vegetation can be fertilized to increase protein and phosphorus levels to that necessary to grow big bucks although depending on location crops like beans and cowpeas can also be supplemented.
In areas like mine, the calcium must either be placed in the soil in adequate amounts or supplemental minerals made available at antler drop.
In areas where minerals are not needed they will not be used.
Areas West of I-35 have calcium based soils so mineral supplements with calcium would be of little value and the most benefit would be from Nitrogen and phosphorus which may be present if crops are present.
At any rate, you sound like someone that would understand the antler growth process well enough understand the huge difference this can make.
As far as the does, If I had even a 1-1 ratio I’d be fine with harvest of does (I went to public land to shoot a doe this year because I don’t have them and the “brown is downers” keep them thinned to the bone.
Does to not travel like the bucks so any that I can attract during the year, usually leave the buck fawns behind and likely gunned down before the 35 rifle and muzzloader doe days are done.
I gladly adopt the button bucks and yearlings and will have nice (on most folks wall) 8-9-10 points on the 2.5 yr. olds this fall.
I only occasionally hear of or see a 3.5 yr. old and suspect poachers or the final stages of the larger antlers weakens them to disease or predators.
The 1- 3.5 Eleven point that I had game cams of disappeared in Sept. after shedding velvet and neighbors became silent and no longer mentioned him so I expect they did not wait for a season.
I have heard it said that if you manage an area, you nearly always end up harvesting someone else’s buck and that is certainly the case even during the season in my area. Last year I grew nice bucks and harvested drought bucks. This year I and several I hunted with harvested bucks that we did not grow but were very nice.
The best that can happen is to have enough in an area that have the same goals to grow the deer you want.
It took several years and proof each year to convince a few in my area that if you shoot the does before or during rut they will become nocturnal and you will not see as many bucks because they will bed down when the does bed down. Bucks are naturally nocturnal and keeping the does will draw many bucks from surrounding areas.
In all my areas we have bordering lands that slaughter does and we do not. This draws bucks from those areas.

By: Kevin, Claremore

Kevin, Claremore — Wed, 19 Dec 2012 21:27:39 +0000

I support reducing the buck limit to 1 archery and 1 gun. Hunters still have the option to kill 2 bucks and archery hunters can still take 2. And if they truly want to hold out for a bigger rifle buck, they will pass with a muzzleloader. And shoot a doe for meat. I like the idea and all the hunters in my area are ready for Oklahoma to get things going in the right direction. I have always been under QDM and so I agree with the posts about; “you do your thing, I’ll do mine”. All the guys that feel that way are right. I agree with that. I do things right, at least right by allowing bucks to walk until they are mature. I mean really mature, and not “oh I thought he was…” or “he looked bigger before I walked up to him and saw all the ground shrinkage and realized he was only 2.5 and scored 110″ etc. I mean fully mature regardless of rack size. I do all that. And I thump a bunch of does. Because in my area, we have plenty. You don’t have many does, don’t shoot them then. I need to, so I do. I have 9 years of DMAP to tell me so. So again, I will do my thing and you all do yours.

The reason I support this; I cannot stand to walk up to a truck at the check station like I did in Oct and see some 60 year old hunter who I know; and know he has killed 100+ bucks (mainly young) in his lifetime, and he is looking at a 4X2 he called a “cull” buck. The deer was 2.5; not a “cull”! And the reason he did it (other than to be a “real” man); he had a 2nd rifle tag to take a “good” buck so he went ahead and shot him with his muzzleloader at 200 yards to keep him from “breedin”. There are countless hunters like that all across OK. They are ignorant to the fact that you cannot, in any way, improve the “genetics” of a deer herd that is wild, free-range. Point it- he would not have done that, if it was his last buck “gun” tag, because he does not and will not ever bow hunt. And that little 6-point might have lived to 5 or 6 and been a 14X12 and scored 190″.

Almost all hunters across the state would not/will not burn that muzzleloader tag on a young buck, if its their last “gun” tag. Then they start passing those bucks, every time, like they always should have before, and that is how the positive cycle begins.

The rule is great. I fully support it. It will save a ton of bucks in our state. Its been proven in so many other states and will be proven here too. All these stats, all this arm-chair “bone-collector” bologna, dreaming up any and every excuse not to reduce the buck harvest. Come on people. Really? You want to still be hunting during rifle season, do what every hunter in Kansas does and don’t shoot a “decent” buck and prematurely end your season. Wait. Pass. Be patient. If you go home without a buck, big deal.

1 gun tag makes hunters pass bucks. And less bucks die. Then years later, they have more big bucks to hunt, and so do the rest of us. Ohio. Kentucky. Kansas. Yea; 1-buck.

I applaud these hunters who want aprs, eab’s and all the other ideas. I like that too. I think you are great hunters and really trying to do things right. Every hunter in Oklahoma should support this idea. If they don’t they are missing the forest for the trees. You have to give a little to take. You really want big bucks. Reduce it all the way to 1. Talk about unlocking the potential of our state.

Looks like there are over 100 something hunters already having posted on this blog alone that agree-

Im not saying the few who are against this are wrong in a few of the facts and figures bc some of that is prob right, but I think you are dead wrong for wanting better deer hunting, yet not supporting such a great idea. Obv you care about deer hunting or you would not have posted comments here. Your passion is cool, but your arguments contradict what we all really want. Better bucks and better deer hunting in OK. You want better deer hunting? Support the 1 and 1 rule. Do not fight something designed to help us. embrace it.

Do Not Forget: The buck limit is still 2 folks- Just now hunters will be much more selective, more young bucks will reach maturity, and I that is a great thing; no matter how you slice it.

By: Brian

Brian — Wed, 19 Dec 2012 20:08:17 +0000

First of all I don’t know where you are hunting that the peak of the rut falls during rifle season. I spend a lot of time out in the woods each year (more than anyone that I personally know) and it has always been my observation that the most intense phase of the rut occurs that magical week (or so) between powder season and rifle season. Let me then say that I believe in QDM and practice this year to year. I usually try to kill a decent buck and then I hold out for an even bigger one. Sometimes it pans out and sometimes it doesn’t. Sometimes I have to eat a buck tag as will probably be the case this year.This is why I support a 2 buck season: I love to hunt big bucks and if I kill one early, then that takes away from my time in the woods. To me that what it is all about, going out and witnessing the whitetail world, passing up small bucks and knowing that any minute a monster could walk within range, that is what I live for! In my opinion there is not a more majestic, smarter animal in the woods than a mature buck. That is why I love to hunt them. I’m tired of hearing how those who oppose the 1 buck state limit are greedy! That is far from the truth! I’ve tried to get some of my neighbors to practice QDM but some people just aren’t going to comply. Making Oklahoma a 1 buck state is not going to solve the problem because those people are still going to pull the trigger on the first spike/forked horn that walks by. And before those of you start harping about hunting for does, I generally fill all of my doe tags! I love to kill deer (that’s were the does come in) and I love to pursue big bucks! I don’t want to be sitting in my stand thinking that I killed the biggest buck on the property, when all of a sudden a mature giant walks out and leaves me thinking, “I didn’t see him on camera or I would have held out to shoot him!” If you tell me that wouldn’t make your stomach turn, then you are a liar! Also, I haven’t heard it mentioned once about expanding the doe hunting opportunities in my area! Its easy for you that have a doe day every day during powder and rifle season to sit on your soap box and preach that there are plenty of days to hunt does! Wrong! Not here where I live in Southeastern Oklahoma! We have only three days to hunt them during the two week rifle season and that is it! So if I have already killed a buck, then I only have three days that I can carry a rifle in the woods. Also, my wife only gets a limited time in the woods during rifle season only. Having only three doe days takes away from her being able to harvest one! Believe me, there are plenty where we hunt! Therefore, I am open to antler restrictions and maybe the “earn a buck program” because I don’t mind killing does, because that is part of the management process. So, If you still believe that I am greedy (and I’m sure some of you do) then you can go sit on the devil’s doorstep for all your opinion is worth. Taking and/or having the opportunity to take big bucks, especially a couple that you been seeing on camera, is a gratifying challenge that can either leave you on high on a mountain or down in a low valley. I live for the moment that a big one walks out! That is why I love to pursue big whitetails!

By: a quall

a quall — Fri, 14 Dec 2012 19:08:02 +0000

PS Yes I am glad I was able to help those that want to be helped, for those that don’t , guess you will reap what you sow. We still have guys here that kill every deer every year and wonder where the “thundering herd” went. No help for them.

By: a quall

a quall — Fri, 14 Dec 2012 18:53:49 +0000

I’ll try one more time, this time, it’s just plain black and white.
I haven’t disagreed that W. Oklahoma has a problem since early in the postings (at first I didn’t know anything was wrong out there but the crazy posts just kept popping and I agreed that if they want 1 buck harvest , fine but unless you just do 1 buck across the board, no effect. Then I went to the trouble to check deer harvest totals from 2009-2011 and then the light begins to shine in the darkness.

I picked 8 random Western counties (Just printed a map and picked 8 different locations not bordering each other.

I checked ODWC Deer harvest totals from 2009-2011 and EVERY one of the Eight counties were DOWN from 15-32% total harvest.

We had that in E. Ok. and lots of landowners figured it out and some stopped killing does and reversed the trend. Eastern counties are going up again in spite of some having all deer wiped out in spots for a few years.

By the comments here, most commenters in W. Ok. hunt leases, All believe killing does is some magic deer management trick that makes something out of nothing.

What is happening is that in Western Ok. , doe killers are killing your herd faster than it can reproduce and in 5 years at the present rate most counties will not have a huntable population in the areas where you can hunt. Naturally you won’t kill all deer in Oklahoma county or counties with no leases but for The harvest in Western counties to be dropping this fast, likely reflects the fact that most hunters are leases and don’t care if they leave anything or not.

Here is what I saw by picking 8 random spots from 2009-2011 (only 3 years):

Washita county total harvest dropped 32%
Dewey county total harvest dropped 30%
Commanche county total harvest dropped 21%
Major county total harvest dropped 18%
Stephens county total harvest dropped 18%
Caddo county total (big county big drop) dropped 29.2%
Custer County total harvest dropped 22%
Garfield County total harvest dropped 10%

In every case above, the same drop the next 3 years eliminates the huntable population of deer.
Now maybe someone can come along and spin a yarn and say it’s just because all y’all don’t shoot nuthin but giant bucks now but I’d call that a tall tale.
Based on the comments I’m seeing from the Western Ok. hunters some even commented that they wish they could kill all does in the holiday hunt.
I knew there was a problem after the first few posts, with all the stories about all the does out there, (the ability to see several does has no connection to how many there are). The W. Ok. Hunters are just wiping out their own herd and probably planning on getting more from E. Ok like before but they don’t deserve it if they don’t take care of what we gave them.

There may be a buck problem too but that happens when you don’t have enough deer left to replenish the harvest each year.
It happened in East Okla. and lots of us decided to bite the bullet and save some does even though it makes some folks mad.

Nope, you don’t have magic deer and you need to stop worrying about Kansas bucks and start worrying about having any deer in 5 years which won’t happen with the “harvest another doe” instead of a buck ideas I’m hearing on the blog.
Y’all need to start taking care of the deer you got and do some of your own research.

I’ve seen enough to know what you’re dealing with because I’ve been there and depending on coyotes and greedy doe killers and such , it may not fix itself very fast.

You guys check your own counties and figure it out. It has nothing to do with a 1 buck harvest but a lot to do with a 4 antlerless harvest.

By: a quall

a quall — Thu, 13 Dec 2012 22:06:50 +0000

Wonder why all these rules never apply to the Management areas? If they are so good, have 35 doe days in rifle and muzzleloader on all public land too!
Eliminate leases, make all blogsperts hunt public land, definitely help the Oklahoma deer herd.
Then the hunters that actually have an investment in the land would be the ones to benefit!.
If you don’t own it stay off of it and certainly don’t steal the deer. For every lease there is a neighbor that actually owns the land next door.
I take care of mine. Don’t need further instruction.