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	<title>Comments on: Flashback II: Rejected Site Added Back Into Consideration &#8220;To Have Three Choices&#8221;</title>
	<atom:link href="http://blog.newsok.com/okccentral/2012/08/27/flashback-ii-rejected-site-added-back-into-consideration-to-have-three-choices/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://blog.newsok.com/okccentral/2012/08/27/flashback-ii-rejected-site-added-back-into-consideration-to-have-three-choices/</link>
	<description>The Oklahoman&#039;s Steve Lackmeyer covers downtown OKC brick by brick.</description>
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		<title>By: Kerry</title>
		<link>http://blog.newsok.com/okccentral/2012/08/27/flashback-ii-rejected-site-added-back-into-consideration-to-have-three-choices/comment-page-1/#comment-43669</link>
		<dc:creator>Kerry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Aug 2012 16:13:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.newsok.com/okccentral/?p=8236#comment-43669</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Oh the webs we weave, when at first we try to deceive.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh the webs we weave, when at first we try to deceive.</p>
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		<title>By: Jill</title>
		<link>http://blog.newsok.com/okccentral/2012/08/27/flashback-ii-rejected-site-added-back-into-consideration-to-have-three-choices/comment-page-1/#comment-43668</link>
		<dc:creator>Jill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Aug 2012 14:33:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.newsok.com/okccentral/?p=8236#comment-43668</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I still don&#039;t know why the site east of the park is any more detrimental to Bricktown hotels than the current site.  Neither site is immediately adjacent to Bricktown and both require some walking and/or other form of transit.  Both sites are reasonably close to other downtown hotels.  If we&#039;re planning a convention center hotel, and has there ever been any indication we&#039;re not, any other hotel will just be for overflow regardless. I wonder if Oklahoma City ever hosts conventions large enough that a convention center hotel wouldn&#039;t provide adequate space regardless.  

It seems to be that with our budget, we&#039;re going to have two options:  build a small gem of a convention center or build a large cheap building, ala the Myriad.  If the planners insist on placing it between our two showplace parks, it seems to me that a small gem would be a more desirable option.  Then, put funding for an increase in size on the next MAPS ballot.

Oklahoma City as it is now is never going to attract Tier Two conventions anyway.  We need more retail, including some upscale retail.  We need to finish the Native American Cultural Center and we need the Adventure Line, so conventioneers and their families have something to do when they come to Oklahoma City.  Very few people go to every convention offered by their company or professional society.  I know I pick the ones that are in locations that I think will have interesting things to do in my free time.  So, if people insist on the current site, build a building that looks great and functions seamlessly.  Be satisified with Tier 3 conventions, all the while working to improve retail and entertainment options in Oklahoma City.  Then, when we&#039;ve got a city that people who go to Tier 2 conventions might consider worthy of interest, make the convention center big enough to attract them, with MAPS 4 money.  A big convention center built on the cheap won&#039;t do that.  

If we take money from other MAPS projects to make the planned convention center bigger and better, we&#039;ll never get another MAPS ballot passed.  And we&#039;ll find that people don&#039;t want to come here for conventions anyway, as our city isn&#039;t ready to host conventions of that stature.

Just my opinion.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I still don&#8217;t know why the site east of the park is any more detrimental to Bricktown hotels than the current site.  Neither site is immediately adjacent to Bricktown and both require some walking and/or other form of transit.  Both sites are reasonably close to other downtown hotels.  If we&#8217;re planning a convention center hotel, and has there ever been any indication we&#8217;re not, any other hotel will just be for overflow regardless. I wonder if Oklahoma City ever hosts conventions large enough that a convention center hotel wouldn&#8217;t provide adequate space regardless.  </p>
<p>It seems to be that with our budget, we&#8217;re going to have two options:  build a small gem of a convention center or build a large cheap building, ala the Myriad.  If the planners insist on placing it between our two showplace parks, it seems to me that a small gem would be a more desirable option.  Then, put funding for an increase in size on the next MAPS ballot.</p>
<p>Oklahoma City as it is now is never going to attract Tier Two conventions anyway.  We need more retail, including some upscale retail.  We need to finish the Native American Cultural Center and we need the Adventure Line, so conventioneers and their families have something to do when they come to Oklahoma City.  Very few people go to every convention offered by their company or professional society.  I know I pick the ones that are in locations that I think will have interesting things to do in my free time.  So, if people insist on the current site, build a building that looks great and functions seamlessly.  Be satisified with Tier 3 conventions, all the while working to improve retail and entertainment options in Oklahoma City.  Then, when we&#8217;ve got a city that people who go to Tier 2 conventions might consider worthy of interest, make the convention center big enough to attract them, with MAPS 4 money.  A big convention center built on the cheap won&#8217;t do that.  </p>
<p>If we take money from other MAPS projects to make the planned convention center bigger and better, we&#8217;ll never get another MAPS ballot passed.  And we&#8217;ll find that people don&#8217;t want to come here for conventions anyway, as our city isn&#8217;t ready to host conventions of that stature.</p>
<p>Just my opinion.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Lackmeyer</title>
		<link>http://blog.newsok.com/okccentral/2012/08/27/flashback-ii-rejected-site-added-back-into-consideration-to-have-three-choices/comment-page-1/#comment-43663</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Lackmeyer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Aug 2012 23:06:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.newsok.com/okccentral/?p=8236#comment-43663</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Ed, the site favored by the mayor actually was found to have had some &quot;false&quot; factors added into its ranking, most notably the absence of the cost of relocating the substation. The site east of the park was universally discredited by the committee, had very little support from the consultants other than &quot;needing three&quot; sites to consider, and was considered detrimental to Bricktown and area hotels.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ed, the site favored by the mayor actually was found to have had some &#8220;false&#8221; factors added into its ranking, most notably the absence of the cost of relocating the substation. The site east of the park was universally discredited by the committee, had very little support from the consultants other than &#8220;needing three&#8221; sites to consider, and was considered detrimental to Bricktown and area hotels.</p>
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		<title>By: Pat</title>
		<link>http://blog.newsok.com/okccentral/2012/08/27/flashback-ii-rejected-site-added-back-into-consideration-to-have-three-choices/comment-page-1/#comment-43656</link>
		<dc:creator>Pat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Aug 2012 13:39:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.newsok.com/okccentral/?p=8236#comment-43656</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The Vitagraph deal has scandal written all over it.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Vitagraph deal has scandal written all over it.</p>
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		<title>By: BethanySooner</title>
		<link>http://blog.newsok.com/okccentral/2012/08/27/flashback-ii-rejected-site-added-back-into-consideration-to-have-three-choices/comment-page-1/#comment-43653</link>
		<dc:creator>BethanySooner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Aug 2012 04:14:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.newsok.com/okccentral/?p=8236#comment-43653</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Holy cow! This was precisely the reason that I mentioned the purchase price for that piece of property knowing that it could/would have a direct effect on adjacent property values such as the &#039;chosen&#039; location for the convention center.
Thank you Steve and Ed for enlightening the public on what has been transpiring. Keep up the good work.
Oh, and if you get around to it maybe you guys could help us to understand how public works projects such as Project 180 are cost-estimated and scheduled resulting in outrageous overages and partially completed streets.
It makes me wonder if some of our overseers might not profit from some training in cost accounting and project management.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Holy cow! This was precisely the reason that I mentioned the purchase price for that piece of property knowing that it could/would have a direct effect on adjacent property values such as the &#8216;chosen&#8217; location for the convention center.<br />
Thank you Steve and Ed for enlightening the public on what has been transpiring. Keep up the good work.<br />
Oh, and if you get around to it maybe you guys could help us to understand how public works projects such as Project 180 are cost-estimated and scheduled resulting in outrageous overages and partially completed streets.<br />
It makes me wonder if some of our overseers might not profit from some training in cost accounting and project management.</p>
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		<title>By: Ed Shadid</title>
		<link>http://blog.newsok.com/okccentral/2012/08/27/flashback-ii-rejected-site-added-back-into-consideration-to-have-three-choices/comment-page-1/#comment-43652</link>
		<dc:creator>Ed Shadid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Aug 2012 22:52:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.newsok.com/okccentral/?p=8236#comment-43652</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Flashback III: http://blog.newsok.com/okccentral/2011/07/13/ed-shadid-gets-his-say/

The decision to deny a request for a continuance to discuss the matter of the convention center location was unprecedented at the time. Nothing would have been lost by delaying the discussion and vote on the convention center location by one week and Pete White&#039;s efforts to that end were commendable. The decision to place the convention center between two urban parks would not receive the endorsement of many, if any, downtown planners. In reviewing the decision-making of the past, it is instructive to witness the absence of holistic planning in the process ie: what is best for downtown and the interplay between all of the new projects and not just what would be the best site for the convention center in a vacuum. This statement from the story was/is worrisome:

The only negative factors listed were that it will require a subgrade or upper-level exhibit hall (which could be complicated by the area’s water table), a less efficient truck access and potentially higher construction costs.

What was apparently ignored then was that a significant percentage of the available land for development along the boulevard would no longer be available, that pedestrian connectivity between two urban parks would be inhibited, that two urban parks separated by something as large as a convention center is virtually unprecedented, that the central park would be further isolated, that tremendous mixed-use development could have occurred on the site, that the central park could have potentially been moved north into a natural symbiotic relationship with the wildly successful urban park, the Myriad Gardens etc...

In the last convention center subcommittee meeting Mike Carrier indicated that $250 million would not be sufficient to build a convention center which would allow us to reach the next tier of conventions; that shortfall is worsened with the current convention center location selection.
What can we learn from the CS&amp;L study on the new OKC convention center performed by the Chamber in 2009 prior to the MAPS3 vote in relation to the convention center location selection? That, unfortunately, is unknown because as of this date, some three years later, the study has still not been released to the public. In retrospect, there was nothing wrong with looking at the site favored by the Mayor. It is interesting that the consultants scored the current convention site the highest and then just prior to this story, determined that the current location could not be rehabilitated. Steve, I assume you have reviewed the engineering studies on the feasibility of rehabilitating the Cox convention center?

BethanySooner: Here is a review of the Vitagraph property sale
http://edshadid.org/sale-of-vitagraph-property-raises-a-myriad-of-questions-for-the-okc-taxpayer/]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Flashback III: <a href="http://blog.newsok.com/okccentral/2011/07/13/ed-shadid-gets-his-say/" rel="nofollow">http://blog.newsok.com/okccentral/2011/07/13/ed-shadid-gets-his-say/</a></p>
<p>The decision to deny a request for a continuance to discuss the matter of the convention center location was unprecedented at the time. Nothing would have been lost by delaying the discussion and vote on the convention center location by one week and Pete White&#8217;s efforts to that end were commendable. The decision to place the convention center between two urban parks would not receive the endorsement of many, if any, downtown planners. In reviewing the decision-making of the past, it is instructive to witness the absence of holistic planning in the process ie: what is best for downtown and the interplay between all of the new projects and not just what would be the best site for the convention center in a vacuum. This statement from the story was/is worrisome:</p>
<p>The only negative factors listed were that it will require a subgrade or upper-level exhibit hall (which could be complicated by the area’s water table), a less efficient truck access and potentially higher construction costs.</p>
<p>What was apparently ignored then was that a significant percentage of the available land for development along the boulevard would no longer be available, that pedestrian connectivity between two urban parks would be inhibited, that two urban parks separated by something as large as a convention center is virtually unprecedented, that the central park would be further isolated, that tremendous mixed-use development could have occurred on the site, that the central park could have potentially been moved north into a natural symbiotic relationship with the wildly successful urban park, the Myriad Gardens etc&#8230;</p>
<p>In the last convention center subcommittee meeting Mike Carrier indicated that $250 million would not be sufficient to build a convention center which would allow us to reach the next tier of conventions; that shortfall is worsened with the current convention center location selection.<br />
What can we learn from the CS&amp;L study on the new OKC convention center performed by the Chamber in 2009 prior to the MAPS3 vote in relation to the convention center location selection? That, unfortunately, is unknown because as of this date, some three years later, the study has still not been released to the public. In retrospect, there was nothing wrong with looking at the site favored by the Mayor. It is interesting that the consultants scored the current convention site the highest and then just prior to this story, determined that the current location could not be rehabilitated. Steve, I assume you have reviewed the engineering studies on the feasibility of rehabilitating the Cox convention center?</p>
<p>BethanySooner: Here is a review of the Vitagraph property sale<br />
<a href="http://edshadid.org/sale-of-vitagraph-property-raises-a-myriad-of-questions-for-the-okc-taxpayer/" rel="nofollow">http://edshadid.org/sale-of-vitagraph-property-raises-a-myriad-of-questions-for-the-okc-taxpayer/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Mike</title>
		<link>http://blog.newsok.com/okccentral/2012/08/27/flashback-ii-rejected-site-added-back-into-consideration-to-have-three-choices/comment-page-1/#comment-43650</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Aug 2012 21:25:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.newsok.com/okccentral/?p=8236#comment-43650</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Have you heard rumors about what the asking price for the proposed convention site?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Have you heard rumors about what the asking price for the proposed convention site?</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Lackmeyer</title>
		<link>http://blog.newsok.com/okccentral/2012/08/27/flashback-ii-rejected-site-added-back-into-consideration-to-have-three-choices/comment-page-1/#comment-43646</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Lackmeyer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Aug 2012 17:21:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.newsok.com/okccentral/?p=8236#comment-43646</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[At this point City Manager Jim Couch insists there is no change on the site chosen for the convention center. But based on what I&#039;m hearing elsewhere, I thought it important to refresh readers on what has transpired to date.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>At this point City Manager Jim Couch insists there is no change on the site chosen for the convention center. But based on what I&#8217;m hearing elsewhere, I thought it important to refresh readers on what has transpired to date.</p>
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		<title>By: BethanySooner</title>
		<link>http://blog.newsok.com/okccentral/2012/08/27/flashback-ii-rejected-site-added-back-into-consideration-to-have-three-choices/comment-page-1/#comment-43645</link>
		<dc:creator>BethanySooner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Aug 2012 17:15:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.newsok.com/okccentral/?p=8236#comment-43645</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Steve, are you bringing this up because you have gotten some new information? 
The selected site concerns me because of potential land costs, no true &#039;back&#039; side for service and deliveries, and of course taking up valuable frontage to two city parks. 
It truly was an unusual process as far as site selection and positioning in the timeline. 
Now that we are where we are in the process, my greatest fear is that there will not be enough money to do it right and it will either be an inferior looking product, or that some other project(s) will get slighted.
Speaking of costs, do you know why the city paid so much money for the vitograph property west of the Myriad Gardens?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steve, are you bringing this up because you have gotten some new information?<br />
The selected site concerns me because of potential land costs, no true &#8216;back&#8217; side for service and deliveries, and of course taking up valuable frontage to two city parks.<br />
It truly was an unusual process as far as site selection and positioning in the timeline.<br />
Now that we are where we are in the process, my greatest fear is that there will not be enough money to do it right and it will either be an inferior looking product, or that some other project(s) will get slighted.<br />
Speaking of costs, do you know why the city paid so much money for the vitograph property west of the Myriad Gardens?</p>
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