Steve-2 comments. First it is Nordstrom, no “u.” Secondly, you missed the most tragic and repulsive part of this whole story. The state is considering putting in a state run casino in into E Block.

FIXED!

When did their problems start? Did it start successfully but lose it all to the bad economy? In that case, no one can predict or plan for an absurd economic change that rivals the Great Depression.

What this tells me is that big national chains, that are exposed to the national economy and have little “skin in the game” in a local area are not always such a promising bet. Also tells me that we shouldn’t get ahead of ourselves and plan more than we can deliver.

If only we had an existing entertainment district where these businesses could go.

It tells me that most of the proposed developments turn out to be nothing more than pipe dreams for OKC. Sad but true. When a development has been announced in the recent past it more than likely is never built.

Smart people learn from their own mistakes. Wise men learn from the mistakes of others. The powers that be in OKC are to blind/ignorant to do either. They will plunder ahead and plow millions into a project that should be put on hold RIGHT NOW.

Sadly we have too many dolts who are believeing that the recession has passed OKC by. WTH??? We have been fortunate to have not suffered as many very well deserving locations have but it has not all been candy and mints here.

You can bet (Edit: Mayor Mick Cornett) and his cronies are going to push for MAPS 4…5…etc. It is time to call a halt and tell the politifools NO MORE until you get what you previously promised correctly with NO MORE TAX INCREASES.

OOKC will never advance until we as a group learn one important lesson. We have a small town political attitude here. The political system of OKC has more in common with Cashion than with DFW/DEN/ATl.

STEVE’S NOTE: Mike, let’s try to maintain OKC Central as a notch above the kind of conversation found at NewsOK, ok? Edit was made because name-calling isn’t needed here. If you want to discuss this with me, email me and I’ll we’ll talk about any concerns you might have with this.

If it is proposed by the powers that be Darryl you can bet they over-promise and under deliver. Voters should TURN DOWN any thoughts of a crackpot program called MAPS-4 and beyond unless and until the non-leaders come clean and explain why many past projects are cut back and why they did not have a better handle on what it was going to cost.

The city and its behind the scenes minions have usurped the process and are out for personal gain. Kinda like a continuation of how it has been done for the last 30 untold decades. Project 180 is being cutback by huge margins. Look at the documents online that show what has been cut because the project managers/politicians were too stupid to get accurate cost estimates. Where is the outcry by the so called cogescenti of OKC? I am not hearing or reading it.

Sadly the politicians and those tax hogs that slop at the trough that we pay for consider us unworhty little people. Frankly the entire city council, mayor, city manager and all department heads involved in any part of these debacles sshould be summarily FIRED.

A horse whipping should be visited upon everybody who votes for any contiuation of MAPS.

Is this site still here? Just sifting through the ashes left behind by MikeN’s atom bomb. Project 180 is disappointing because of the overruns, but the project was so massive and fast tracked that there were bound to be unknowns. I wouldn’t be opposed to maps 4, but I would want to change the scope. I would like to see all intersections accessible and more focus on general pedestrian and sustainable infrastructure rather than a new arena or stadium.

The issue is the city won’t be able to completely control who goes where. Developers can buy up land in the C2S area, the city council can approve/disapprove what they are proposing to build, but once that is done, the city cannot say who the developer can and cannot have as tenants. The developer is going to want to make money from rents so they are going to lease it out to whoever wants to pay it. Now, if the city were to build their own retail, they could control it, but it looks like they are going to have to deal with what comes their way.

For those who apparently didn’t notice…this isn’t in OKC (don’t understand that strange political rants that this post generated), this is in Minnesota. This is a small cautionary tale nothing more. Block E was a huge victim of the recession. It was opened around 2001 and places really didn’t start to close in earnest until the recession hit (2008 and on). Minnesota has been hit much worse than Oklahoma by the recession. These are things that can’t always be planned away.

How often do any plans in life turn out exactly as you first envisioned them? The same goes with many development projects (private and otherwise). As an aside, can we get someone at the Oklahoman to put together a list of every project that has been completed since MAPS passed so when someone gets in a twist when a bench isn’t put on their favorite sidewalk as originally planned they can know it isn’t the end of the world?

I understand this is OKC not Minnesota. The problem is not one bench or another the problem is the systematic underperforming of the powers that be and the project. The city still cannot get street lights installed on time on Sheridan. So since they fouled up something it amazes me anybody with any education trusts them to get the big things correct.

A place in Minnesota tried to build something and it seems to be a failure and so everyone here is now claiming (once again) that Maps 3 is a failure?

While I accept the fact that “haters gonna hate” it is difficult to accept the fact that anti Maps 3 people are still out, clamoring for a time in the past when their lives were seemingly better and blaming everything on a sound economic boost that was voted on by the citizens and hasn’t even began construction (yet deem it a failure), blaming the “powers that be” for bringing ideas to the citizens to let them decide if they want to “think big” or head back into the 80′s.

I feel incredibly lucky to be in OKC. I wish people in other cities were listening to your complaints, knowing the situation here and comparing it to theirs and shaking their heads at the utter disrespect some people have for others for no reason but an outlet to vent frustrations.

Nope, this is not me venting frustrations, this is me feeling sorry for those that can’t recognize a good thing when they see it.

Go back to hating that Oklahoma City is now an international hotspot. I’ll go back to participating in what my generation (those in their 20′s) calls for the first time Oklahoma City history, the place they choose to live.

Casey, I think there’s only one person in this thread that has suggested the Minneapolis development somehow implies that MAPS 3 is a failure (that’s certainly not what I’m suggesting).
And yeah, haters are going to hate. I think that’s just the way it’s going to be. My only intent with this post was to ask, how similar is this development to what has been discussed and envisioned for Core to Shore, and is there anything to be learned from the experience? Maybe. Maybe not. I’m really not sure myself. But there seemed to be enough similarities that I thought this might prompt a good discussion of how to proceed with Core to Shore.
For the record, there have been a couple of comments moderated where the “haters” went too far in their “hating,” if you get my gist.

MikeN, you likely have some very good ideas and suggestions to add to the debate. I’m a developer and I think all voices are needed in Order to arrive at the “best of the best” for our city, including yours. But your words and your style do nothing to promote your well intended ideas. People, like me, write you off as a cranky OKC hater. You should learn to make your point with some degree of respect for those who work hard every day to make this a great place. Our city will be better for it.

From just a cursory reading and the eyball test of the above article and image, Block E was just a bad idea to begin with. Far from being the comprehensive plan that C2S presented, this looks like nothing more than a mall. No, I take that back, it looks like a mini-mall, like 50 Penn Place and we know how that’s going right now. I feel that C2S offers much more to be hopeful and excited about than the above plan, even if it is delayed and perhaps it should be. But I just don’t see how one can make an accurate comparison between the two. Seems like apples and oranges to me.

But what is happening here is offensive in that a few:including the ones mentioned by MikeN,have corrupted a very good thing. They put smoke screens around the Maps3 projects; and in what order they would be developed.
Now they say they know what is best and I don’t recognize what is happening with this Maps. They had their agenda with our free money honey pot and that is what is being enforced.
I for one and I know many others will not vote for another MAPS without major restrictions enforceable by legislation or law or any means which ensures the citizens rights are being protected and what is promised is delivered as promised.

I think I’ve heard that song and dance with every Maps Project to date, Mike. Historically, all the city has done is complete every project that was promised debt free. I think you must not have been around for the first MAPS, when all this same rhetoric was thrown at Ron Norick – same ol blah, blah, blah.

In my opinion the only agenda I see here is perhaps your personal one regarding Mayor Mick – sad. You are also wrong regarding Maps. The citizens of this community will continue to approve maps projects as long as they see the benifits to the community and as long as the city ends up with what they voted for. City gov. knows that as well. MAPS 3 is still in its infancy – way too early to make any judgements yet.

Mike you are totally on-mark. The past is a very good predictor of future performance and the past has its good and it has its very bad. IMHO one bad act wipes out ten thousand good acts. Kinda the rule of one awe shucks wipes out the attaboys.

I don’t hate the concept behind MAPS. I am for any porperly managed benefits to the city that do not line the pockets of the chosen few. What I despise are politicians who have been corrupted by money/power/potential post polical life jobs and how certain folks get preferential treatment with my and your tax dollars. I operate from the premise that 99% of all politicians are corrupt from the start, it is just the degree to which they are courrupt.

MAPS 3 barely passed the smell test. With the current waste/debacle/incompetence I seriously doubt citizens will be hoodwinked again for MAPS-4 without as you said VERY STRINGENT RESTRICTIONS.

I preach to everybody I know that MAPS-3 should be the end until we clean house of the festering stink at city hall both elected and career staff.

I DO NOT HATE MAPS pe se but I consider politicians lower on the value scale than roach vomit. Always have always will. They earned their spot there also.

Not a hater here as I love my City, always have always will. It is where I was born, where I live and where I will probably die. (I live across the street from the hospital where I was born). While it may be premature to deem MAPS 3 a failure, it isn’t off to a very good start. Consider the following:

• Trails: a $40 million “mistake” was made resulting in 60 miles worth left undone after MAPS 3 is finished. If costs remain what they are or an alternative material found, we are only getting 30 something miles of Trails instead of the promised 57 (which was supposed to have “finished/virtually finished/all but finished” the Trails Master Plan).

• Senior Aquatic Centers: descriptions have been cut back to just 4 now (instead of the 4 or 5 mentioned during the campaign) and the Aquatics seems to have been dropped too (at least from all of the them).

• Transit: the intermodal Transit Hub that was supposed to have cost $10 million is now going to cost $120+ million. This is as much as the Streetcars themselves.

We ran into many of the same problems with the original MAPS and it was a success on many levels but, NONE of the original MAPS projects were built on time, on budget and as promised. The failure to do those 3 things were collectively described by our Mayors (Cornett, Humphreys and Norick) as “disaster”. Some came a lot closer than others (like the Arena & Fairgrounds). While they came closer by percentage of their respective budget it still amounted to millions more than sold to the voters. Some projects, ended up costing double. In the end MAPS 3 came in 47.75% more than what voters were told.

We must strive to learn from our mistakes (and those of others) and do our best not to repeat those mistakes. So far, I am not seeing that happen with MAPS 3. If history repeats itself and we we have the same 47.75% in cost over runs, the $777 million in MAPS 3 is going to cost another $371 million or over a Billion when it is all said and done. We are already well on our way to that amount.

The way this conversation has turned has me a bit surprised but also wondering if the public sees MAPS 3 and Core to Shore as the same thing. And if so, how does that shade views of the two initiatives, which while they overlap, are very different and separate propositions?
Mike N., I’m going to politely ask that we move on from criticisms of the mayor, council, and perceived agendas, which have now been voiced pretty clear in this thread. One thing I’m picking up from those who are answering my original question is the devil is truly in the details on any efforts to develop Core to Shore; that development that is too dense, too compact, might not be the panacea some may envision. So did Randy Hogan get it right with how he developed Lower Bricktown? Should that be the model for Core to Shore?

Yes!!! No criticisms of the Mayor, please. Either say something nice about the power elite that run the city or don’t say anything at all. This is a Daily Oklahoman blog for goodness sakes.

Maturity is running rampant.

No! Randy Hogan’s development belongs in suburbia, not Bricktown. C2S needs to be pedestrian driven. Lower Bricktown, while it works, wastes a ton of space on parking. If that is the model for C2S, it will be embarassing.

Many don’t like the look of Hogan’s lower brictown, but I think that the concept and the Mix is certainly better or “more right” than “Block E”. Retail(little bit by sonic + Bass pro), entertainment, Restaurant, corporate, residential, hotel. That mix + the arena and the ACM has managed to keep people in the area and parking lots full on weekends. And though they’ve had a few businesses go out,it’s performed much better than Block E, which must be a ghost town now.

So argue if you want about the look of lower bricktown, but the approach seems to still be working. And keep in mind that today’s lower Bricktown certainly wasn’t what we thought it would be initially. I think Hogan had to go back and start from scratch. It’s tough to build the concept exactly as it was envisioned – too many variables and too much unknown.

Core to Shore is another debacle that needs to stop right here and not continue until the citizens get honest and forthright answers as to what it is and what it will be. Also the lies we were fleeced with about the movement of the power substation. That has insider dealing aka corruption written all over it.I see it as another boondoggle. We are not now nor ever will be an “International Hotspot” PUHLEEZE.

So now you think we’re trying to be an “international hotspot” because of Core to Shore. LOL
Most people think the concept is for citizens of OKC. But conspiracy theories abound so what do I know.

I’m not going to reach any ultimate conclusions with this comment … it is intended to be more reflective than conclusionary …

Largely, many of the comments in this thread seem to complain about Oklahoma City leadership and big money interests getting served. I’m not going to comment on the latter but I will instead reflect upon …

1) What if Ron Norick had not been mayor but someone else was. Would that have impacted Oklahoma City’s development, as we know it?

2) What if Kirk Humphreys had not been elected mayor. Would we have an NBA arena, or any other for that matter?

3) What if Mick Cornett have not been elected mayor? We we have a revamped arena and an NBA team, and, as well, MAPS 3?

I’m not above criticizing our elected and non-elected leaders, as most of you probably know. But leadership is and has been essential, I think, for Oklahoma City to walk beyond the dark days prior to MAPS 1. The discussion going on here is not black or white or one-size fits all. It ain’t nearly so simple a thing.

Steve: I think generally there is a lot of confusion over Core to Shore and MAPS 3. As you correctly point out, there is overlap. FOr instance, the MAPS 3 Park is one of the major elements or “catalyst” of Core to Shore. While MAPS 3 is a 7.75 yr tax (10 to 12 yrs before completed). Core to Shore has been described as a several decades long endeavor. Something like 30 to 50 years IIRC.

International hotspot!!!!

We do have a Bass Pro Shop AND a Toby Keith restaurant. That pulls them in from London, Tokyo, Rio de Janeiro, Paris, Mumbai, Moscow,…