When the MGF wants nothing to do with it what does that say about the C to S’s viability as a project to be built at all?

When the MGF has no interest what does that say about the entire viability of the project to begin with?

Censorship is being practiced.

Rob, try leaving your comment without the name calling or personal attacks. Or I’ll be happy to post it without the name calling. There are other sites that are more than generous in allowing name calling, but you’ve been around long enough to know it won’t fly here. If you can’t abide by this, OKC Central may not be the appropriate forum for you.
- Steve

I’m curious why maintenance costs of the park continue to be explored by the Oklahoman but not those of the convention center. The park has yet to be programmed and its makeup can be curtailed so as to minimize maintenance costs. The Convention Sports and Leisure Study of the new Convention Center, however, indicates that the City should expect to lose about $3million/year from the new convention center operations and would need to increase funding for the Convention and Visitors Bureau by $3-4 million/yr above current levels for a total of $6-7 million before we get into potential costs of the convention center hotel or mid-construction cost overruns.

I’m not aware of studies being done by the city on maintenance costs for the convention center, park, streetcar system or the whitewater rapids venue. Further Ed, this story was simply based on a release done by authors of the study.

As Councilman Shadid relates above, by creating a simpler park, one that is not programmed, we may well be able to lower the cost of maintenance of a new city park susbstantially. In addition, if I read the article correctly, the $6 million cost is an estimate of mainenance costs for both the Myriad Gardens and a new central park. Because it has the botanical tube and is so highly programmed, the maintenance costs for the Myriad Gardens could comprise a higher portion of the total.

But, the bottom line is: Are parks important? Why should we spend money on parks? It’s certainly an interesting question in Oklahoma City, one of the less fit cities, one with obvious problems with weight management. When you look at European cities you will note markedy more parks per capita and per acre than we’ve got in most cities in the United States. But, even New York has 14% of its land mass as parks. European cities and New York have mass transit too, and they have fewer issues with obesity. It’s tempting to make the leap and say that when you have more options outdoors and you have more options to take public transit than a car (public transit usually requiring a walk of a block to four to reach it and the same length walk once the approximate destination is reached)people tend to weigh less. If one isn’t willing to go that far, green spaces also serve as areas for rest, contemplation, they serve as stress reducers. They’re a little bit of beauty available to everyone, no matter their income level, what neighborhood they can afford to live in. As a taxpayer, I am happy to do my part to beautify Oklahoma City and to create spaces we can all enjoy.

I think previous MAPS projects were maintained by a dedicated use tax, but the MAPS3 use taxes are being used for public safety per a casual agreement with the fire and police unions.

Rob, the Use Tax was only to be for the first year or two of the MAPS 3 collections (not for the full 7.75 years) and only a portion of the Use Tax at that. Recently the Council voted to end the Public Safety portion of the Use Tax and those positions that were being funded are now coming out of the General Fund. The Use Tax is completely at the sitting Council’s discretion in how they use it. I can’t speak directly to the original MAPS Use Tax, but some of the MAPS 4 Kids Use Tax was used to finance the Bass Pro deal. And more recently, some of the Ford/NBA Use Tax was used to make up part of the regular sales tax shortfall for the Ford Center (aka OKC Arena). Some of the MAPS 3 projects operations/maint may be funded through Naming Rights, General Fund, possibly Use Tax and other sources. It has been the City’s practice to generally worry about those types of things later.

Highlight Oklahoma’s native species: Indian Blanket, Redbuds and other perennials. ODOT has planted lots of native flowers along I-35 that bloom 3 or more months out of the year. That will cut down on maintenance costs a lot.

I have no idea how much it costs to maintain Central Park or Golden Gate, but it doesn’t seem like they have a bunch of plants that require much maintenance beyond mowing, edging and brush clean up. Let it be natural.

Myriad Gardens has a lot of plants that are non native and will die. The Azaleas in full sun have already chuckled weakly and died.

Prior to the vote, and for sometime after, there were grand and glorious renderings and speeches about an exciting, well programmed park, with a reworked Union Stations, multiple food venues, concert areas, play areas, and open spaces to enjoy. Even some silly looking mini turbines. And an iconic cable bridge connecting the park section together.

Over and over people talked about the park and how they were looking forward to it and happy it would be at the front of the Maps 3 projects.

Now, it almost seems it may be a big empty grassy plot so it doesn’t get in the way of anything else.

Sad, really.

It’s all a matter of opinion, really. Personally, I’d like to see a big grassy plot with a few meandering paths, perhaps a pond and not much else. The Myriad Gardens is our programmed park and I’d like to have more of a Central Park or Boston Garden type park….one with lots of open spaces. Lawns to play frisbee with friends or dogs, paths to stroll along, very natural spaces for us to enjoy. I don’t see that as sad at all. I didn’t like the park design we were shown pre-MAPS. I’ll simply be happy to see the area beautiful instead of blighted.

I seriously wonder how the Gazette and the Journal record have both ran stories about Councilman Shadid calling out Larry Nichols for using his influence and wealth to shape the direction the city is going. More specifically in regards to the convention center being moved up the maps 3 timeline and creating a non-profit organization that is funded by tax payer dollars to initiate a subsidized conference-center hotel.

Hopefully my comment won’t be censored by Steve or anyone else in the Dark Tower

Jill, we should design the park.

Rock out-croppings. Perhaps some levels to act as natural planters. Dot it with some shade trees and accent it with flowering trees. I say leave the pond out, it becomes a maintenance issue unless there is a stream or creek running thru it. Throw in some permanent art. I am picturing The Panhandle in San Fran.

We don’t need another iconic structure in the park. Put in a place for a band with downtown as a backdrop. This thing is designing itself.

Sounds great, Matt!

John, I tried to post two comments about that particular subject but they never appeared (Apparently the term ‘kingpin’ cannot be used to describe certain individuals.). That action promted my July 20, 12:09 PM post.
Steve has been good about keeping the public informed about the MAPS3 timeline debate, but frankly, I thought Shadid’s comments warranted a front page article. Guess not!

Notice: I only moderate comments when the individual engages in name calling, profanity or personal attacks.

Thanks, Steve! I never doubted your journalistic integrity. Now, how about a column on… well, you know who.

My point is that when one pitches a high end park to voters, to bait/switch to dull open grassy space would be as wrong as deciding streetcars could be cheaper buses, whitewater could be a canoe/paddleboat concession, or the senior centers could be farmer market spaces. The city ought to build what people were pitched to support.

Get with the new program, BTDT! Grass doesn’t cost $130 million. It costs $2 million. We can use the remainder of the park budget on the convention center overuns and the still unfunded, but necessary, convention center hotel. If that’s not enough, rubber-tired trolleys will suffice for the streetcars. The canoe concession isn’t a bad idea either.

City owned/operated/sponsored convention center hotel. Now there is some pretty stupid phooeey. If it is such a good business decision to have it private industry will jump on it. If private industry remains aloof that should tell ninnyhammer citizens and politicians it is a financial disaster.

And my point is that not everyone wants a “high end” park. A lot of people will be happy to have a big park with open spaces, especially if they know new features will be added as time goes on. To me, it’s like decorating a house. When I first move into a house, I buy almost nothing new for it. I have to live there and as I do, I get ideas about what will look good where, where I should hang the pictures. I see how the house is used and where people congregate to determine what my needs will be. It’s also fun to drag the decorating out over time. I don’t like to walk into a “finished” house because I quickly get bored with it. I think that going to the park over time to see new additions will keep it fresh and exciting to visit.

For example, while the Myriad is very nice, I feel overstimulated when I’m there. There’s so much to look at that I can’t focus on or enjoy any one part of the park. I keep moving to look at the next thing. To me, while I understand why it was finished quickly, it’s a bit like getting too many Christmas presents at once.

As I’ve said, I think we will all breathe a big…..”ahhhh” just to see a huge swath of green and trees where there once were abandoned and unaesthetic buildings. Then, we can enjoy watching the design unfold over time.

I think it’s very important to define park typologies and park programs at this point in the conversation. The Myriad Botanical Gardens are just that, a Botanical Garden. Sure there are park like elements, and programming, but at the end of the day it’s a garden experience and not intended to handle large volumes of people engaged in active recreation.

The amount of armchair (or office chair) quarterbacking with regards to park design I see here is amusing. The City has done taken the appropriate course of action in seeking out the services of a group of Landscape Architects and collaborators to design our central urban environment. I don’t think Oklahoma City residents know how lucky they are to be engaged with some of the preeminent Landscape Architecural firms in the world. These people know what they are doing and will not lead us astray.

On the surface, creating a blank slate park may be appealing to some. And it’s true that any major park is never truly finished. However, the idea of rolling out a green carpet and calling it a park or activated social space is inept. Urban parks are some the most complex and techinically challenging spaces a City can create. It’s not a matter of turf and trees. There are complex natural and social systems to be considered.

My appeal here, is for Oklahoma City Residents to consider the strengths and limitations of the Myriad Botanical Gardens. The gardens are a beautiful urban space, but not a substitute for the experience of a truly active, codifying and socially defining, large urban park.

i think the park should be truly okie. native grasses, redbuds, dogwoods, cottonwoods, rose rocks, horny toads, a creek with perch in it… the kind of environment that was here before we were. it would have its own distinctive beauty, it would be uniquely our own, and best of all, it would not require maintenance at all (other than keeping it clean). anybody think this is a bad idea?

That would cost way too much money, David; probably $4 million. It would leave only $126 million for the convention center overruns and convention center hotel. But we could use money allocated for the senior health centers. Everyone knows that OKC is one of the healthiest cities in America. Seems a waste of our taxes to worry about old people when we could possibly land the Republican National Convention.

David Ball: +1

I agree with you David, but I said it first! See a few comments above.

I like your idea a lot, David. And Matt, you can take credit as well.