Here’s what I find interesting about this map. The route is blocks away from key residential areas – Deep Deuce area and Legacy. I asked a transit staff person about this recently and he replied that the downtown workforce took precedence.

I’m not a transit expert, but wouldn’t it make more sense to have another block or 2 more distance between the circulating lines? Seems like walking a block or 2 would be fine and it would expand the area of coverage.

Paige, wouldn’t NE 4 accommodate much of the Deep Deuce residents? I agree, however, this would not work well for residents of Sycamore Square or Legacy. Just not sure if there’s a way to make everybody happy here.
This would serve Level, Ron Bradshaw’s new apartment complex, the Edge about to be built by Gary Brooks, and two more big residential developments I can’t talk about yet.

I wonder how many people on average are at a convention in OKC daily. I would like to see a comparison with the number of people who work at the health sciences center. I don’t know if we should be planning the route to serve the convention center more than people who live here.

I hope so. Looks like a great start. Let’s not delay it any further!

If the Hudson line got built, Legacy wouldn’t be any farther from it than Deep Deuce is from 4th St.

Conversely, if the boulevard extension didn’t get built, wouldn’t people at the convention center have to go all the way up to Midtown to get back down to Bricktown, since the core route is a N-S couplet?

Steve, I wish you could say more about residential development!

Steve, not sure about the 4th street line unless you’re going to the health center. But I agree, there’s not a way to make everyone happy. I’m just glad it’s coming.

But I was a little thrown by the transit comments that the downtown workforce was the 1st priortiy. I find that most of that group has a drive-in/drive out mentality, whereas the downtown residents do not. So why cater to the wrong group.

I agree that the cuplet, the closeness of the north and south paths, is weird, in fact kind of a waste. Just 2 a couple more blocks of separation would cover a lot more territory.

Sometimes I feel like those making decisions about downtown do not have a real-world, downtown mentality.

Steve,

Where are Ron Bradshaw’s new complex and the Edge by Gary Brooks going to be located. I’m a downtown resident and really appreciate all you do. Oh and as soon as you can talk about future developements I’d love to hear about it.

Thanks

Wow this would make my life so easy. Living at the Legacy apartments and studying at OUHSC, I would never have to drive. I think this would encourage a lot of students at the health science center to live downtown (many already do, but some choose to buy a house in the suburbs instead). I really think the biggest thing downtown OKC is missing is decent public transportation. Light rail and the like almost always leads to development as people want to live somewhere they won’t have to drive every day. I really hope this happens and fast.

Paige, I’m sure the streetcar subcommittee is being pressured into prioritizing the downtown workforce by the chamber of commerce. Several of the subcommittee members do or have lived downtown.

I’m a subcommittee member, and there’s been no pressure or input at all from the Chamber regarding the route. I live in Deep Deuce. It’s been my experience that most of the people who live downtown are more than willing to walk a few blocks to go where we want. I see groups of people who live at the Maywood Lofts walking into Bricktown or the Deep Deuce restaurants. I see people walking from Deep Deuce into the CBD for work regularly. If you live in Deep Deuce, even with the earliest streetcar route, no one will be more than two or three blocks from the line, which is a very manageable distance. The same holds true for Legacy.

My daughters live in Chicago, where apartments are advertised by their distance from the bus and Loop lines. They consider 4 blocks from a line a very desirable location.

Part of becoming a culture that isn’t dependent on the automobile is losing the expectation that one needs to be dropped off right at one’s destination, or that mass transit has to stop right outside one’s door. Although right now it’s beastly hot, I’m about to walk into Bricktown to eat a late lunch. Most of the year it’s a pleasant stroll and I look forward to the exercise.

Erick, are you kidding? Have you followed our committee? We’re about as independent as you can get.

The route that has been posted is from the Alternatives Analysis committee constructed by consultants and the AA Committee.

Our Maps 3 Sucommittee route that has been presented to council earlier this year constitutes about 70% of what is depicted. The remainder that has been proposed or hasn’t been decided has/will be greatly influenced by trying to directly touch housing. IE: Legacy Apartments/Deep Deuce.

Were waiting on this AA process to pursue federal supplemental monies to move forward and engineering/better estimated costs on key concerns such as the Sheridan and Reno bridges.

The approx 70% that is consistent between the two committeees is the main “Bricktown to Midtown Spine”. The core circulation has still yet been finalized by our committee to go onward to council. While both committees agree on the majority, there is still significant elements to be considered.

Regarding the route being “workforce oriented”, the city staffer who stated that is probably speaking on behalf of the AA process, not the Maps 3 transit committee. And he probably said that because consultants base a significant amount of their recommendations on “Travel Demand Models” of which the greatest measurable shifts occur with workforce in a downtown environment. It is an important requirement in that process. But I would say that his statement should be entirely clarified as being entirely his opinion, and a probably dubious and over simplistic one.

Furthermore, Urban Neighbors, the Downtown Neighborhood Association currently has a board member present on the committee. That could always change depending on who the Mayor/Council appoints, but so far downtown residents have been well represented on an official level.

Hope that helps.

I’d be hard pressed to buy into the idea that the streetcar committee was beholden to the chamber in any way.

Thanks Steve.

I made an ignorant comment. I have been following the process; I didn’t pay attention that Paige was talking about the AA process and not the subcommittee.

It just gets frustrating knowing how far out we are still in light of the convention center getting moved up. Having listened to Jeff and Jill on various media interviews, I apologize for insinuating that the subcommittee is being nefariously influenced. I’m just so ready to see this momentous effort completed for the good of the city.

I’d be hard pressed to buy into the idea that the powers that are driving the MAPS 3 agenda give a flying flip about the downtown, etc., streetcar.

The convention center, and the unspoken hotel which citizens will be expected to subsidize, and the heavy hitters in the city, driven by those powers, dominate the MAPS 3 agenda. Their mass of wealth and influence clearly color what has transpired during the past 2 council meetings.

Ordinary sales tax payers, we who are funding MAPS 3, we count for squat.

Those who pay the sales tax for 7 3/4 years … well, what do we get, and when? We get what’s left over after the convention center and hotel advocates get their own program pushed through.

I don’t understand why AA likes Hudson so much, over Walker. The bus hub is an obvious one, but it seems likely to me that the bus hub won’t even be there for much longer. Still, I am dumbfounded at how AA can obviously prioritize a bus hub over downtown housing when it could serve both upfront by going one block further down 4th, to Walker.

Of course Legacy isn’t left out by shorting it at Hudson. But points west of Walker are, such as Sycamore Square (a huge housing project we often forget about) and the emerging Film Row. Come on..

Erick, thanks. People, keep in mind that 2/3rd’s of streetcar/hub budget is in front of the Convention Center timeline.

Nick, I personally believe that the reason that some City Staff has helped predicate Hudson over going one block further is because they don’t want to deal with Rick Dowell. I know that sounds crazy.

The proposed subcommittee “protected area” does enable a route via a proposed Walker alignment instead of Hudson. This would enable a better interface with the existing bus center, direct contact with the Legacy Apartments, Sycamore Square, Civic Center, City Hall, Art Museum, Montgomery Apts, new downtown Elementary, and the redeveloped Film Row district.

Dowell doesn’t want Walker torn up and negotiated an abridged Project 180 plan for his area by threatening litigation. He is deathly afraid that our committee will put up that “danged” overhead wire even though “his” district. His words, not mine.

The reason Hudson appears even as an alternate in the AA is because the travel demand model influences the consultant’s recomendations for the “main spine” route as well. Touching the transit center boosts ridership for both lines. It is important in that FTA process.

However, historically certain individuals have had “bad” experiences with Dowell. I know him personally and we have had our own debates. While I respect him and we have agreed on many neighborhood issues, he does not own the street.

If the streetcar should go down Walker because it is a better route for our citizens, you will find me fight for it even if it may cause some city staffers some heartburn.

Plus, I think a direct connection between the existing Bus Transfer Center to the new intermodal commuter rail hub without having to make a transfer is a better, more efficient system. That Bus Transfer Center is not going anywhere soon. If and when we change to a “grid based” bus system in the future, we won’t need a major Bus Transfer Center anyway.

There is room designed into the Santa Fe Station proposed campus for whatever we do need. We should build the best, innovative, Class A transit system we can. And that is going to require people to stand up for it and refuse to be the “step child” of public NIMBYism policy and “spare change” funding that it has been for so long.

It starts with this streetcar and new hub.

For what it’s worth, I’d love to have a streetcar “imby”

I absolutely agree 100%, Jeff. If a single NIMBY property owner, who in the past has gotten everything he has whined about, can hold up a public process for the maximum betterment of the city, then that is egregious. It sounds like you are thinking of the exact same reasons as me as to why Walker makes sense. Another good reason is the public will. Virtually every single one of the public-made transit maps from the Let’s Talk Transit meetings used Walker as one of the transit spines. Walker is well-known as a vital corridor, and while the traffic circle prevents it from being easy to make it a long, complete corridor, it should at least form the backbone of transit service for the western side of downtown. Plus, the TOD potential along Walker is incredible because of how it can tie together “masterpiece” blocks with vacant lots and abandoned buildings.

Hudson is also just way too close to Robinson to make sense, having separate lines just two blocks apart makes absolutely no sense at all, even with OKC’s large block sized. Consultants should be gotten rid of if they suggest something as stupid as that, which would not only waste track, but also dilute ridership numbers. We need to be maximizing coverage area, ridership numbers, and TOD potential.

I know Walker is a main spine and would help connect Midtown with the rest of downtown, what about separating it more and go to Dewey or Lee? That way all of the downtown housing could be surrounded by rail.

Just a few notes… Thanks to Steve for bringing awareness about the current streetcar discussions as we proceed through this process.

There was an hour and twenty minute discussion that can be seen here- http://okc.gov/AgendaPub/mtgviewer.a…doctype=AGENDA

You will need to skip to 50 minutes into the video to start the streetcar discussion.

Also, there was a major discussion about the existing bus system including trying to connect to the new Outlet Mall at Council Road and I-40. This can be viewed 1:48 minutes into the video of the meeting.

Finally, our next MAPS 3 Transit Subcommittee meeting has been scheduled for next Wednesday (July 27th) at the Cox Convention Center (Room 8). We will be taking a walking tour of the Santa Fe Station that is being considered for acquisition for the new inter-modal Hub.

Not sure why the link isn’t working above, but here it is again.

http://okc.gov/AgendaPub/mtgviewer.a…doctype=AGENDA