You did a story on this exact subject in 2005, before many if not all of the first new downtown housing projects broke ground. If only they had listened then.

I’m in the same boat. I would like something over 1000 sq ft but less than $250k. But there simply isn’t anything now.

It costs minimum $200 to $220 sq ft for new residential construction right now… not including lot, IF you can find a lot. That’s the math.
Not to mention the design restrictions and special permiting which causes time delays which equals more monetary costs.
I talked to someone the other day about a lot that had good residential prospects, they wanted to convert it to parking to realize more revenue value.

Brian, what specifically are you looking for? Like I said on the other post, over 1000 sq ft but less than $250k is a very broad spectrum.

Mike, I appreciate your insight on this and you are one of the folks I know is more informed about this sort of thing. Curious – can you say whether it would be fair to say that the downtown business improvement district somewhat provides an incentive for going with surface parking over building up through its assessment structure?

It’s amazing why developers even thought the market was ready for such a large number of overpriced units. The cost of many are above uptown Dallas, inside the Loop in Houston, not to mention priced more than downtown Atlanta.

Just a little heads up! My team (TAG) is working with VEER on a couple of their upcoming projects. We are two months out from wrapping up 7 degrees North which is a single family modern dwelling with 1,334 (not including outdoor living space) for $250K. Very cool, contemporary structure…more details at http://www.sellingoklahoma.com/MyHomeDtl.asp?lstPages=1&HomeID=1184272 … great forum! Cheers, Chris

Mr. Allen, I’m just seeing suburban homes on your link. What is VEER and are the homes they are working on located in or near downtown?

Mike I am seeing surbuban homes that more than BEAT your alleged price point. So your facts are not so much facts as suppositions. If you are talking about downtown costs I agree but if you are talking about suburban pricing you need to open your eyes tio reality.

It isn’t so much the price or the size, but they missed the mark on the demographics. They made something appealing to a younger group who can’t afford it. Those that can afford it and are older don’t want the floorplans. Simple research could have helped.

I think $200 to $220 is really high for residential construction. I would say that you are at least $50-75 over high end residential construction.

Rover couldn’t have said it better.

Steve, VEER is a company that focuses on architecturally significant infill and development downtown. More details about 7 degrees North can be seen at http://www.sellingoklahoma.com/MyHomeDtl.asp?lstPages=1&HomeID=1184272# (if link doesn’t work, please cut and paste in browser). This dwelling is located at NW 5th & Dewey. Thank you for your interest

Ah yes! I’ve noticed this going up. Let’s visit about this soon!

It’s not new construction, but Sycamore Square (north) on 4th Street is a good option. Close to Devon and the up and coming Film Row, as well as Midtown.

Condos are for sale; start at 1250sf and are much less than 250k, though some may need some remodeling or new finishes. Very solid buildings, WITH a pool.

I live in Sycamore South (the rentals) and I love it.

I’d like to see the price range come down to the $125,000 to $150,000 range so that it can actually hit a younger crowd…even if it means a 650-750 sf condo. The younger crowd won’t care if is smaller than 1,000 they would just like the option to consider it.

Even at that price range/size the developer is still looking at $180ish per foot.

I just closed on a place in downtown tues that is 2 bed, 1 bath, 1300 sq ft and was 225k. So those that say it can’t be built are just making excuses. I will say that this was the only condo left with the price to sqft ratio, so as previously discussed it is rare, but possible.

Just to dispute Mike one more time about the square footage costs, 7 Degrees North is $250,000 with 1,334 sq ft. That is $187 a sq ft, lot included, downtown. His numbers are without basis. I have done residential before and it is not hard to get a permit. You have to have a site plan showing easements, floor plans, electrical plans, elevations, and a roof plan. If it is two stories, you have to have a stair section. It is spelled out in okc.gov. It isn’t hard at all. He is just a naysayer.

Residential construction is certainly not $200+ per square foot (plus land), except for pretty high-end properties. As noted by several people, the primary reason most downtown housing is so expensive is because the builders/developers misread the market (or didn’t bother to try to read the market). Prices will eventually drop to come into equilibrium with demand. In some cases that may mean that high-priced properties will be foreclosed on and resold at much lower prices, in which case some folks are going to get some good deals.

Quoting Steve: “I know some of downtown’s best and brightest developers are daily readers of this blog. Guys, gals, what will it take to get you to build a home for Shelly and dozens like her?”

Steve, I think the way you posed your question is very telling in itself and begs other questions. Why is it that often the only ones being asked this question are urban developers? What qualifies them as the sole experts as to how to get affordable housing into downtown? What true grassroots knowledge do they possess about what people want and what is possible in achieving a certain price-point when it comes to the actual housing component of this equation?

You’ve heard my comparing and contrasting of urban vs. suburban developers, how their roles differ by definition in the inner city vs. the more traditional suburban development practice, and how that hugely affects costs.

It seems to me that a question more worth asking that might lead to a more realistic, actionable answer is, “When will some of downtown’s best and brightest developers team up with some of Oklahoma City’s best and brightest builders… the ones who actually have their ear closest to the ground on what people do and don’t want in housing, and how best to get to the price-point people are needing in downtown…to solve this problem?”

Was it really unreasonable to think that 100 people in a city of 1.3 million would be willing to spend $200 a foot to live downtown? At the same time these were being built, there were people paying $500 a foot to live in Nichols Hills. Obviously the developers were wrong, but I cannot believe the anger associated with this error. In most cities, some of the most expensive housing is downtown. Land is at a premium, development costs are high and people are willing to pay for convenience and proximity to downtown amenities. We’re just a little backward here.

I know very few young people who can afford to live in Manhattan, downtown Chicago, San Francisco, etc. What I think is interesting is that people here think developers should be falling all over themselves to create cheap downtown housing. If this were a different city, young people would be snapping up renovatable housing in Jefferson Park and the Plaza District and counting themselves lucky to find it. Those with a little more to spend would be buying land in SoSA and building themselves a skinny house, or feeling lucky to afford one floor of a three flat in a row house.

I would like to see high quality housing downtown that will stand the test of time, personally. I don’t want a developer throwing up cheap $100 a square foot stuff that will look like crap in 10 years, personally. Go look at all the cheap suburban housing 10 to 20 years after a brand new neighborhood is created and ask yourself if that’s what you want downtown.

Jeff, you’re dead right and forgive me – by posing that question as I did, I do add to the problem. Consider myself corrected, and hopefully, prepared to do better. Indeed, I was meeting with a traditionally suburban home builder at the recent Mayor’s Roundtable who is very interested in building downtown – but his belief that it must involve a gated community has met some resistance from downtown players. Jeff, your question does beg a very basic discussion – has there been any such meeting of the minds between respected suburban homebuilders as yourself and downtown developers? And if so, why not?
Jill, you’ve got some good points. I’m not so much convinced we’re seeing any anger in this conversation as we are some frustration that the market has, so far, tilted heavily in one direction. And yes, much as with Sycamore Square (the first for-sale housing that floundered at first in the early 80s, but later did very well in appreciation), the investment in the high-end housing will almost certainly pay off in the long run.

I didn’t mean to sound like I was scolding you. ;-P

The only such meeting of the minds I’m aware of, at least under a formal or public scenario, would have to be our two ULI Roundtables…the one with you, me, and Blair as panelists, which I guess maybe qualifies as a developer and builder discussion, and the other with Richard McKown, until now a suburban developer.

One reason I don’t think this has happened further is because urban developers are a considerably different breed and don’t tend to run in the same circles as the more traditionally-rooted developers and builders around town. The only guy that runs in COHBA circles who does infill/inner-city as a primary practice is Jeff Struble. From the urban development side, I had Grant Humphreys in there as a member for the last few years, but we as an association were “homeless” at the time, so our abilities to host events was limited. Now he’s off building cities of his own.

I’d like to see more of us cross paths and hash this out to everyone’s benefit, frankly, but I’m not sure in whose territory (if that is even the appropriate or applicable mindset) the discussion needs to take place. ULI is viewed as urbanist-exclusive for the most part (perhaps myself and David Yost being the exceptions?), and COHBA is conversely viewed as suburbanist.

Maybe OKCCentral needs to start a road show?

Gated community downtown? Hopefully it never exists.

Jill, in most communities you would assume that 100 people out of 1.3 million would work. However, the people with the money want to be in a gated community, protected from undesirables that you get walking the streets in alot of inner city neighborhoods. Also, the schools suck in and around downtown. You get much better schools in Edmond, Norman, and Yukon. One more point, the median income in OKC is just north of $30,000. All of those points really hurt the downtown housing market.

Maywood Lofts have floor plans that are less than 1,000 sf and are going for less than $175,000. That should be affordable for most young professionals.

I must say the idea of a gated downtown community is appalling to me. I don’t know who this developer is, but the whole gated idea is a terrible one in suburbia, as far as I’m concerned, and downtown it’s even worse.

I’ve now lived downtown for two years and I have yet to have any experiences that were frightening to me. I’ve actually accidentally left my purse in my car overnight…unlocked….and found it still there in the morning. Obviously I wouldn’t do anything like that on purpose, but the one time I did that in Nichols Hills I found may car window broken in the morning, and the purse stolen. I’ve been out with a puppy every night at 4 a.m. and never felt unsafe.

I’m trying to think of gated communities in Manhattan or downtown Chicago or anywhere, really. It’s so anti-urban.

As far as appreciation goes, I think the fear of that, more than the fear of crime downtown is what has kept higher end buyers away. When you’ve got developments that are incomplete and there are empty lots around them that could end up being something that will lower property values, I think some people fear losing money if they have to sell. I simply operate under the premise that a home is not an investment, rather, it’s an expense. That’s why it’s more important for me to pick a place I enjoy living than one that’s a bargain. If you make money when you sell it, great. If you don’t, well, I’ve yet to make money on a car or a vacation either.

Jeff, I know you weren’t scolding me – but it was a helpful reminder for sure.
OKC Central roadshow? I don’t know how that would work… but I’m doing some thinking about this. Give me a day or two to hash it out.

Great discussion going on here. Please keep it up.

Jeff, does Urban Neighbors have the kind of focus you are looking for or at least the potential for it (i.e., a meeting of the minds between developer and builder)?

Steve, you should set up a meeting a McNellies for everyone to come if they want.

Joe, I must admit you’ve just introduced me to your organization. I’ve Googled it and have read up on it. I’ll take Steve’s lead on any organized discussion stemming specifically from this thread, but don’t hesitate to contact me if I can ever be of assistance or can aid by participating in any of your organization’s future events.

When we looked at housing in OKC a few years ago, we came across these Brownstones. The concept was wonderful and the location was great for us. But, the price was ridiculous. In my opinion, what the project needs is someone like Jeff Click to jump on board and bring these units into an affordable option for young professional families. It would do wonders for the downtown area.
(Yes, I am biased. I live in a Jeff Click Home now!)

http://www.about.me/modehomes – these will be in the $200k’s

Jill, Ditto. You’ve got it right.

For the young and not super affluent folks I know, there’s no reason to buy even a $150,000 condo downtown when a few miles north in The Paseo or Mesta Park or Midtown they can have a lovely old house in the middle of a vibrant and diverse neighborhood still within walking or biking distance to downtown…and much closer to an actual grocery store, for that matter.

The modehome townhouses look great. I think land in SoSA is a real bargain right now, and am excited to see that neighborhood develop. I’m not sure why more people aren’t looking to build in that area. If I wanted a skinny house with a bit of a yard, that’s precisely where I would build.

It’s understandable to want to compare what you get in suburban developments to urban developments. As a buyer, you have to compare the things that matter to you.

Right now, there are very real trade-offs. Downtown living doesn’t fit for everyone – but it very much fits for some, not necessarily the majority of Oklahomans.

The school issue in downtown is one that city leaders will have to overcome soon, if there are hopes of either building or sustaining a residential base in downtown.

Right now, we are still in the formative stages. Downtown’s residential development is still on the uphill side, but there are encouraging signs of progress.

Persistence and continued investment is key right now, to keep things moving – the immediate goal from the city’s point of view should be the milestone of securing an initial base of residential (how many, who knows), that will provide the base for even more, and more premium development.

Call them the phase one group of downtown residential – we have some already, but we need a LOT more.

The phase 1 base of buyers needs to have sufficient financial means, and be willing to sacrifice certain “must haves” for the moment (such as nearby access to schools and grocery stores) because they SO desire to live in an urban setting.

Once enough phase 1 buyers have established a decent downtown residential base (again, no idea what that number should be), their presence will help drive further development for more housing, retail, and school.

So, we’re still trying to start the engine on realizing downtown OKC’s residential population.

And that’s why Level Apts and Maywood Lofts are the right kinds of residential offerings for this moment. In my opinion, we may need to offer more units like these for the next couple of years.

RE: Downtown school.

The school board recently selected the site to build the elementary school (the last school project of MAPS for Kids)

http://newsok.com/oklahoma-city-school-board-approves-site-for-downtown-elementary/article/3574833