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	<title>Comments on: When History Doesn&#8217;t Match Up with Politics?</title>
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	<link>http://blog.newsok.com/okccentral/2011/03/26/when-history-doesnt-match-up-with-politics/</link>
	<description>The Oklahoman&#039;s Steve Lackmeyer covers downtown OKC brick by brick.</description>
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		<title>By: Larry in OKC</title>
		<link>http://blog.newsok.com/okccentral/2011/03/26/when-history-doesnt-match-up-with-politics/comment-page-1/#comment-29785</link>
		<dc:creator>Larry in OKC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Apr 2011 05:52:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.newsok.com/okccentral/?p=5636#comment-29785</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Besides that, doesn&#039;t the substation add to the industrial, gritty, urban fabric that everyone says they want? LOL]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Besides that, doesn&#8217;t the substation add to the industrial, gritty, urban fabric that everyone says they want? LOL</p>
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		<title>By: Mike</title>
		<link>http://blog.newsok.com/okccentral/2011/03/26/when-history-doesnt-match-up-with-politics/comment-page-1/#comment-29541</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Apr 2011 18:40:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.newsok.com/okccentral/?p=5636#comment-29541</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Instead of complaining about the substations location make the best of it.  Cover it, dress it up, etc.  Infrastructure is vital and sometimes it is not exactly pretty.  You cannot have the wheat without dealing with the chaff.  Pretty simple really.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Instead of complaining about the substations location make the best of it.  Cover it, dress it up, etc.  Infrastructure is vital and sometimes it is not exactly pretty.  You cannot have the wheat without dealing with the chaff.  Pretty simple really.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://blog.newsok.com/okccentral/2011/03/26/when-history-doesnt-match-up-with-politics/comment-page-1/#comment-29269</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Apr 2011 00:39:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.newsok.com/okccentral/?p=5636#comment-29269</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Jill, it is an eyesore, but even if this substation is moved, it won&#039;t move far.  Something has to be near by downtown because electricity degrades over distance.  All the power that we use is about half of what we lose.  It is a very wasteful technology, and unfortunately, we can&#039;t live without it.

I think that the convention center should be budgeted secretly at $250 million and then when the construction costs go high, there is the built in contingency.  Anything left over could go into dressing up the substation.  I like Mike&#039;s greenscreen idea.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jill, it is an eyesore, but even if this substation is moved, it won&#8217;t move far.  Something has to be near by downtown because electricity degrades over distance.  All the power that we use is about half of what we lose.  It is a very wasteful technology, and unfortunately, we can&#8217;t live without it.</p>
<p>I think that the convention center should be budgeted secretly at $250 million and then when the construction costs go high, there is the built in contingency.  Anything left over could go into dressing up the substation.  I like Mike&#8217;s greenscreen idea.</p>
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		<title>By: Larry OKC</title>
		<link>http://blog.newsok.com/okccentral/2011/03/26/when-history-doesnt-match-up-with-politics/comment-page-1/#comment-29097</link>
		<dc:creator>Larry OKC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Mar 2011 03:27:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.newsok.com/okccentral/?p=5636#comment-29097</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Doug, I think you are correct on the timing. Think the Mayor mentioned it after the election (the part about just rolling it into the Convention Center, rather than making it a separate project). 

I agree that we shouldn&#039;t spend money from MAPS 3 on other projects before we know if there are extra funds to play with (highly unlikely since there is only $17M in funds budgeted and we have already made a $40M &quot;mistake&quot; on the Trails portion). This problem was brought up in the same Council meeting you posted (available funds from the 2007 GO bond). Until they get all of the projects complete (still several years away), don&#039;t really know if there is extra money or not.

While a C.C. hotel is not listed as one of the MAPS 3 projects, we can&#039;t really wait until MAPS 4 to take care of it either. The ULI folks strongly suggested that they open within 6 months of each other (if not at the same time). But to me that is all part of splitting the $400M C.C. into Phase 1 ($250-$280M/MAPS 3) &amp; Phase 2 (unknown future funding). Plus the cost of the C.C. hotel. The Chamber even went as far as saying the C.C. was fully funded on the erroneous &quot;MAPS Facts&quot; website. Knowing full well that it was being split up and that it wasn&#039;t even designed, so there is no way they can claim the MAPS 3 budgeted amount is going to fully cover the expense of a complete C.C.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Doug, I think you are correct on the timing. Think the Mayor mentioned it after the election (the part about just rolling it into the Convention Center, rather than making it a separate project). </p>
<p>I agree that we shouldn&#8217;t spend money from MAPS 3 on other projects before we know if there are extra funds to play with (highly unlikely since there is only $17M in funds budgeted and we have already made a $40M &#8220;mistake&#8221; on the Trails portion). This problem was brought up in the same Council meeting you posted (available funds from the 2007 GO bond). Until they get all of the projects complete (still several years away), don&#8217;t really know if there is extra money or not.</p>
<p>While a C.C. hotel is not listed as one of the MAPS 3 projects, we can&#8217;t really wait until MAPS 4 to take care of it either. The ULI folks strongly suggested that they open within 6 months of each other (if not at the same time). But to me that is all part of splitting the $400M C.C. into Phase 1 ($250-$280M/MAPS 3) &amp; Phase 2 (unknown future funding). Plus the cost of the C.C. hotel. The Chamber even went as far as saying the C.C. was fully funded on the erroneous &#8220;MAPS Facts&#8221; website. Knowing full well that it was being split up and that it wasn&#8217;t even designed, so there is no way they can claim the MAPS 3 budgeted amount is going to fully cover the expense of a complete C.C.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike</title>
		<link>http://blog.newsok.com/okccentral/2011/03/26/when-history-doesnt-match-up-with-politics/comment-page-1/#comment-29065</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Mar 2011 19:56:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.newsok.com/okccentral/?p=5636#comment-29065</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Camoflaging the the substation with Green Screen would be a very economical, effective and attractive alternative. to spending 30 million. I think it would also complement the park.  http://www.greenscreen.com/]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Camoflaging the the substation with Green Screen would be a very economical, effective and attractive alternative. to spending 30 million. I think it would also complement the park.  <a href="http://www.greenscreen.com/" rel="nofollow">http://www.greenscreen.com/</a></p>
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		<title>By: david ball</title>
		<link>http://blog.newsok.com/okccentral/2011/03/26/when-history-doesnt-match-up-with-politics/comment-page-1/#comment-29063</link>
		<dc:creator>david ball</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Mar 2011 19:12:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.newsok.com/okccentral/?p=5636#comment-29063</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[i totally agree with you, IF and only if a new substation were needed.  if it were, it would be paid for by og&amp;e (and a land swap w/ the city would be nifty).  however, i think shingles on the house is a very fair analogy, because since it is indeed on personal property, it would be a personal decision as to how to best spend my money.  for public works to maintain public support, the taxpayer&#039;s money must be spent wisely.

I-40 is being relocated because it is dilapidated and in need of immediate replacement.  that being the case, relocation fairly comes into play.

please don&#039;t think i&#039;m hostile to making the park as good as it can be, but an electrical substation simply does not compare to, say, the old sewage treatment plant by 10th street and I-35.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i totally agree with you, IF and only if a new substation were needed.  if it were, it would be paid for by og&amp;e (and a land swap w/ the city would be nifty).  however, i think shingles on the house is a very fair analogy, because since it is indeed on personal property, it would be a personal decision as to how to best spend my money.  for public works to maintain public support, the taxpayer&#8217;s money must be spent wisely.</p>
<p>I-40 is being relocated because it is dilapidated and in need of immediate replacement.  that being the case, relocation fairly comes into play.</p>
<p>please don&#8217;t think i&#8217;m hostile to making the park as good as it can be, but an electrical substation simply does not compare to, say, the old sewage treatment plant by 10th street and I-35.</p>
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		<title>By: Jill</title>
		<link>http://blog.newsok.com/okccentral/2011/03/26/when-history-doesnt-match-up-with-politics/comment-page-1/#comment-29061</link>
		<dc:creator>Jill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Mar 2011 18:18:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.newsok.com/okccentral/?p=5636#comment-29061</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think we&#039;ll have to disagree, David.  Again, the park is designed to be a showpiece, to foster urban development.  The substation completely takes away one entire block, and visually and physically removes access to the park for at least one other block east of it. For those who thought the convention center on the east side of the park was a bad idea, a substation is even worse. Obviously it&#039;s not an option to locate the convention center there at this point in time, but even it would be an improvement over the substation. I don&#039;t think the shingles of a house are a fair analogy, as that&#039;s a personal residence, and this is a park designed to be the heart of a city. I-40 is being relocated, not simply because it&#039;s adjacent to the Ford Center, but certainly in part because it is an eyesore and a barricade to the area south of it, as well as a hindrance to development.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think we&#8217;ll have to disagree, David.  Again, the park is designed to be a showpiece, to foster urban development.  The substation completely takes away one entire block, and visually and physically removes access to the park for at least one other block east of it. For those who thought the convention center on the east side of the park was a bad idea, a substation is even worse. Obviously it&#8217;s not an option to locate the convention center there at this point in time, but even it would be an improvement over the substation. I don&#8217;t think the shingles of a house are a fair analogy, as that&#8217;s a personal residence, and this is a park designed to be the heart of a city. I-40 is being relocated, not simply because it&#8217;s adjacent to the Ford Center, but certainly in part because it is an eyesore and a barricade to the area south of it, as well as a hindrance to development.</p>
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		<title>By: Doug Loudenback</title>
		<link>http://blog.newsok.com/okccentral/2011/03/26/when-history-doesnt-match-up-with-politics/comment-page-1/#comment-29057</link>
		<dc:creator>Doug Loudenback</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Mar 2011 17:05:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.newsok.com/okccentral/?p=5636#comment-29057</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Re: &quot;Why not shift a portion of this 30 million toward supporting a proposed convention center hotel. This could possible avert the city from coming up with another creative way to find funding for this hotel project.&quot; Response: A convention hotel is not part of the $777 MAPS 3 expenditures. I think it improper to play fast and lose with MAPS 3 revenues, even though council member Pete White is not adverse to doing that -- he thinks it might be OK to use part of the $30 million to fund a new family aquatics center ... see this &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.youtube.com/user/DougLoudenback?feature=mhum#p/a/u/0/w4LiJSnUSUg&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;YouTube video clip&lt;/a&gt;. 

Larry, I don&#039;t think that the $30 million OGE substation relocation expense was ever mentioned publicly during the MAPS 3 campaign. But David Holt, then the mayor&#039;s chief of staff, did mention it to men in an interview that I reported on during the MAPS 3 campaign.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: &#8220;Why not shift a portion of this 30 million toward supporting a proposed convention center hotel. This could possible avert the city from coming up with another creative way to find funding for this hotel project.&#8221; Response: A convention hotel is not part of the $777 MAPS 3 expenditures. I think it improper to play fast and lose with MAPS 3 revenues, even though council member Pete White is not adverse to doing that &#8212; he thinks it might be OK to use part of the $30 million to fund a new family aquatics center &#8230; see this <a href="http://www.youtube.com/user/DougLoudenback?feature=mhum#p/a/u/0/w4LiJSnUSUg" rel="nofollow">YouTube video clip</a>. </p>
<p>Larry, I don&#8217;t think that the $30 million OGE substation relocation expense was ever mentioned publicly during the MAPS 3 campaign. But David Holt, then the mayor&#8217;s chief of staff, did mention it to men in an interview that I reported on during the MAPS 3 campaign.</p>
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		<title>By: david ball</title>
		<link>http://blog.newsok.com/okccentral/2011/03/26/when-history-doesnt-match-up-with-politics/comment-page-1/#comment-29047</link>
		<dc:creator>david ball</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Mar 2011 15:29:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.newsok.com/okccentral/?p=5636#comment-29047</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[with all due respect to jill, moving the substation simply to get it out of the way of the park is really a bad idea.  it would be like if i bought a house and my wife didn&#039;t like the color of the shingles, so she wants a new roof.  if we actually NEED a new roof, fine.  if we don&#039;t, you live with what you have until it wears out.  further, the substation IS development; try having a modern city without electricity.  i don&#039;t dispute there are more desireable locations for it, but this would be like relocating I-40 just because we don&#039;t like it next to the ford center.  i&#039;m pretty certain the substation (unlike the highway) is not worn out, because og&amp;e hasn&#039;t made a peep about it.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>with all due respect to jill, moving the substation simply to get it out of the way of the park is really a bad idea.  it would be like if i bought a house and my wife didn&#8217;t like the color of the shingles, so she wants a new roof.  if we actually NEED a new roof, fine.  if we don&#8217;t, you live with what you have until it wears out.  further, the substation IS development; try having a modern city without electricity.  i don&#8217;t dispute there are more desireable locations for it, but this would be like relocating I-40 just because we don&#8217;t like it next to the ford center.  i&#8217;m pretty certain the substation (unlike the highway) is not worn out, because og&amp;e hasn&#8217;t made a peep about it.</p>
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		<title>By: Larry OKC</title>
		<link>http://blog.newsok.com/okccentral/2011/03/26/when-history-doesnt-match-up-with-politics/comment-page-1/#comment-29036</link>
		<dc:creator>Larry OKC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Mar 2011 10:50:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.newsok.com/okccentral/?p=5636#comment-29036</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks for the fix Steve. While that is certainly a possibility, I would think they did it in the same manner that the MAPS 3 Public Use Tax offer was made and promise made by the Mayor during the campaign. City Manager talked with each Council member individually to make sure majority was on board with it before presenting the offer to the Fire/Police folks. After all, why negotiate it if the Council doesn&#039;t support it and turns it down. Yet certain Council members denied (much as is the case here) that the Council had agreed to anything of the sort. At least publicly. This gets around the legal requirement of open meeting laws and such.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the fix Steve. While that is certainly a possibility, I would think they did it in the same manner that the MAPS 3 Public Use Tax offer was made and promise made by the Mayor during the campaign. City Manager talked with each Council member individually to make sure majority was on board with it before presenting the offer to the Fire/Police folks. After all, why negotiate it if the Council doesn&#8217;t support it and turns it down. Yet certain Council members denied (much as is the case here) that the Council had agreed to anything of the sort. At least publicly. This gets around the legal requirement of open meeting laws and such.</p>
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