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I believe this will end up being an improvement to downtown, but not the highest and best use of the land. I respectfully submit that Oklahoma City is still not ready to embrace true urban design standards and we will have to live with a certain amount of suburbia in downtown for some time to come.
Perhaps the urbanists and preservationists will be able to make inroads during another decade with another set of leaders and decision-makers in place.
I applaud Preservation Oklahoma for sticking to their values and for bringing these important issues to the forefront.
Sad day for OKC, this will come back to bite OKC. Sad day for us young professionals, it’s boneheaded decisions like this that keep people moving to Dallas and elsewhere.
No Curt. Don’t do that. Go back and read my last post … step back … and breathe… and before you make such a decision, enjoy a night of Shakespeare in the Park, or the monthly outdoor festival in the Plaza district, or stroll through Paseo during one of is special nights. Enjoy a dinner, or better yet a night at the Skirvin or the Colcord. Check out the rowing at Regatta Park. Watch an independent film at the art museum or a Thursday night on the museum’s rooftop. If this was an issue you care about, then you should find this as reason No. 1 NOT TO LEAVE. Step back … and breathe…
Curt, I am as frustrated by the ruling against the appeal as anyone. Oklahoma City is dynamic city with a great and fantastic future that needs more supporters and defenders of the urban environment not less. I can understand the frustration, but nothing changes if everytime a defeat is realized everyone moves away…if the urban core is worth defending then it is worth sticking around to defend and educate more people of its merits. Who knows that maybe in a few years if SR grows significantly, that it might increase the number of workers who want to live downtown and that then many of them will be more engaged in the issues of quality urban development as it becomes more of a reality to them.
Oklahoma is great because it self made from nothing to something and from something to something great. We have a lot to be proud of, and certainly our founding heritage didn’t just roll over and flee in the face of hardship…they rolled up their sleeves and got to work and made it what they wanted.
The same holds true today, sure there will be companies that will make huge PR gaffes (SR) and stick the thumb in the eye of the local ordinaces and those who actually care about the city long term. But those often have a meteoric rise and then a quick departure and are forgotten almost as fast. SR certainly may do just that, (I actually hope I am wrong on that) I would rather they thrive and then mature into a responsible corporate citizen that realizes that by working with the city and its citizens would create goodwill. But alas that remains to be seen…
My point don’t seek for greener pastures only to realize that what makes em greener is even more manure that you have to deal with.
Take some time to cool down, catch your breath and then see where you can make a difference in the city with what you control. It is on the individual level that great cities are built, and then the combined efforts of those individuals working toward a common goal, that gets things done.
This whole thing makes me dislike SandRidge. Regardless of the outcome, they way they handled it makes me lose respect for the company.
I am greatly frustrated by this decision. I have lost a lot of respect for SandRidge and the way they do business. Tom Ward is apparently the antithesis of Larry Nichols. It is a sad, sad day that we will lose our only remaining streetwall SOLEY so SandRidge can stroke their ego and have a better view of their tower from Robinson. And buildings that are viable for condo/apartment reuse and were slated for such just a couple years ago are going to be lost.
As far as I know this was the only remaining recourse. If so, it is time to move on. We are never going to win every fight. We should turn our efforts toward something that will improve downtown that we still have some control over– like the location of the new convention center. Downtown Oklahoma City has come a long way in the last decade-plus. Sure, mistakes have been made and will continue to be made. But let’s focus on trying to minimize future ones rather than getting sidetracked by a past lost battle/mistake.
I agree with Kyle. While I’m glad that SandRidge will grow and hopefully thrive, This PR force-feeding has left a bad taste in my mouth. It’s less of what they did, but more of how they did it.
What’s the next move on the Downtown chess board? If another huge company wants to come to Downtown OKC, what block, or buildings, will be the next to be changed? Is it First National, Union Bus Station, or Harbour-Longmeier?
capcha = outsource Neil
Well, it was a good fight, but it’s over. Loss of the India Temple is especially disheartening, knowing the role it played in state history.
I’m old enough (sorry to say) to remember our city before the wrecking ball came through to “save” our downtown. I’ve seen a lot of history fall, from the grand theaters to the Baum Building to the Huckins Hotel and to so many more.
At this point, we can only hope that SandRidge is committed to producing a quality complex, and making those big public spaces vibrant and alive with activity.
Curt, I echo the sentiments of others (like me) who supported (and are thankful for) the efforts of Preservation Oklahoma … regardless of what happened this afternoon. What happened today is certainly not the end of Oklahoma City … our city’s history contains worse errors of judgment than this one, yet we as a city have persevered. We will this time, too.
Take a deep breath, say some “ohhms,” and stick around. There is more good than bad to be said about this city and its future development.
That was a really good post by David. The point is that this was a battle that we lost, not the entire war. We took it into OT as well, as far as I’m concerned.
I have two minor points that have been bugging me. I absolutely HATE how in order to be taken seriously on the podium you’ve gotta give your life biography and hope it impresses someone. It’s becoming evident that in the big controversies, it’s a case of shut up or pony up the money to make a difference on your own.
The second point is that I am bothered that Steve’s post was deleted. Glad he was able to replace it with “..” and get the comments back up, but still. This censorship of the press has gotta end. They already won, so give it up already.
Captcha: adieu! objection
LOL
Come on people, this is a good day. The CBD around SandRidge can finally be something.
CAPTCHA: Finally Progress
Yes, Curt leave because a publicly traded company wants to make a $100 million dollar invest in downtown OKC. Great call.
Big companies aren’t always good Slim. They can be bullies like we have seen. They feel like that are entitled to do what they want.
I support guys like Clay Bennett that do things right and Devon that work with the city like a team.
Sandridge acts like they are Lebron James and everyone should worship the ground they walk on because they have brought their egos to town. Not falling for it!
I know a lot of other places have issues, but at least they have density and an urban environment that is hospitable to people not cars or plazas (homeless people).
I don’t care if you employ millions, if you locate downtown and purchase historic buildings, you accept responsibility for the urban fabric. I would rather have Sandridge located in the suburbs than them disrespecting the city like this. Completely destroying some of the few buildings left from a pioneering era, not even working with Preservation Oklahoma, and employing threats in the review process is not the behavior of a corporate citizen.
Disrespecting the city by making a huge investment in downtown? That doesn’t really jive.
Curt, Sandridge presented a plan to the city and it was approved. Plain and simple. Your anger is misdirected.
Curt, it does sound a little childish that you would leave over investment into downtown.
Ernest, that is the process, the game. Deep down the leaders of OKC wanted this done, they just played politics with Preservation Oklahoma.
Well said Ernest, Tom Ward and Sandridge have lost a lot of respect in this town, and hopefully anywhere anyone cares 2 cents about them. I too would rather have Sandridge located in the suburbs than them disrespecting the city like this. Completely destroying some of the few buildings left from a pioneering era, not even working with Preservation Oklahoma, and employing threats in the review process is not the behavior of a corporate citizen. Sandridge is a joke.
this is a great day for the future of business growth in OKC … and the continued investment in downtown
So will this decrease the downtown office vacancy rate or are these already off the books? Yeah, that’s a mundane concern, but I’m curious if that will have an effect.
I think that there is an erroneous argument being made by everyone that continuing the momentum is what it’s all about. I guess nothing is worth stopping, taking some time, and getting it right.
I applaud SR for being involved downtown. I boo SR for discounting the huge opportunity they had with that block. I guess that makes me neither pro or anti SR.
The process isn’t supposed to work like this. SR should have recognized they were coming up against some opposition and had a responsibility to find a compromise, and we could have avoided the entire issue fully.
As an addendum.. what I mean is that the public process, and gaining approval from boards, and building consensus among not just the makers and shakers but the downtown enthusiasts as well–it’s not a process that is intended to pit two parties against each other and in gridlock for months, facing off in hearings, and engaged in a media war. The idea is that you join forces for the benefit of downtown and sit down at a table and talk out your differences.
What SR has on their hands now is a PR flack, and a LOT of people who are apparently annoyed with them. And I would not at all be surprised to see that sentiment rise as these buildings go down, and continue to rise once people recognize the history that we are continuing to hemorrhage.
Just when I thought OKC was taking a big step forward, it takes a gigantic step backward.
Captcha= scornful picture. That’s about right.
Nick the huge majority of people could care less about this vote… there is a very loud vocal minority .. .
and several downtown enthusiasts and residents (including myself) are happy with this outcome.
Downtown’s DEAD … that is what Ford Price and Mike Dunn said in a nutshell.
We need to repeal MAPIII Quick
Long live the Burbs.
AJ you say you want them to come down, but once they are gone you will see the big empty holes that are left.
Tell your coworkers at Sandridge that they will have a view of Robinson now.
Mike, I hope you aren’t seriously drawing the conclusion that downtown should be abandoned and we should just give up. Eventually it won’t just be Deep Deuce and the Legacy area that are truly mixed-use, and someday that WILL include the skyscraper core as well.
Just not anytime soon.
AJ:
How can you be happy about the destruction of the oldest standing structure left in downtown? A building that served as the home of the Legislature for a couple of years? How can you be happy by it being replaced by yet another under utilized corporate plaza?
What you said about “the huge majority of people could care less about this vote”, is true of most issues. On BOTH sides. The winner either way is a very small fraction (a minority). In this case, the winner was the side that had the power & money and effectively used threats to get what they wanted.
I watched the board meeting and i found SR’s presentation to be persuasive. I was further persuaded by the people who spoke for the plan. I would encourage everyone who feels that they have been wronged by SR to watch the hearing. It may not change your mind but if you are open-minded you might see how someone can have a differenr opinion about the matter without being a demon.
captcha = caring intention
Sometimes I cannot believe how some people are so thick-headed and blind. What a terrible thing ignorance is.
Larry do i think in a best case deal those building would be turned into housing or mixed use … sure … but empty buildings that have a very questionable at best future use don’t do downtown any good. empty unused buildings is not what density is about. I also think this outcome is a good sign that we are a business friendly city… a company investing 100mil into our central downtown is a very very good thing..
For what it’s worth, I really appreciate the thoughtfulness and tone of this discussion. There is a diverse representation of views here, several of you disagree on this topic, and yet your talking with each other, not at each other.
Thank you. It’s days like these that keep me going with this blog, and I’ll try to get back on my feet later this week
I have been for SandRidge the whole time, but Nick what you said up there back to back had a lot of wisdom in it. I think you are right on.
I love this blog, but I think it fueled a lot of the public criticism against SR. To SR’s detriment they didn’t try to compromise, they immediately went on the defensive like anyone would when they are demonized.
Ignore Mike, those are irrational statements.
Why do people continue to say “under-utilized corporate plaza?”
At this point no one, including Larry, knows how much or how little the plaza will be utilized. It very well could be very utilized and a major draw for civic events.
Slim,
Corporate plazas are never utilizied, as a Google image search will quickly reveal. Even something on a small scale, like the newly renovated Bank of Oklahoma plaza in downtown. It’s pretty – but you’ll never see any people hanging out there, or at least I never have.
Slim, name ONE corporate plaza downtown that is not underutilized. Bank of Oklahoma? Chase? Leadership Square? You can count the people in those plazas on one hand even at lunchtime. There are more people walking on the sidewalks by far, and we all know that traffic is low because of the Underground.
It seems that one thing we need to hope for is the continued strong growth of SandRidge. In Steve’s article, Tom Ward seemed to give density people some hope in that he said that their current tower could accomodate about 300 more employees, but that the sites of the torn down buildings could be places for future towers if/when the need arises. So how about we get on the SR bandwagon and hope for more acquistions like the recent Arena Resources buyout? The faster they grow, the sooner we can get new and better buildings there that will actually be used. In my opinion, I think that is more likely to happen quicker than if we let those buildings remain in the hope that some day someone will come back to renovate them.
Slim wrote: “Why do people continue to say “under-utilized corporate plaza?”
Based on the record. There are already 5 or 6 corporate plazas/parks in the immediate area and they are under utilized. What about the SandRidge plaza is going to make it any different?
Maybe you are right and it will be heavily utilized (but I think you over reach just a bit). In the event it does become a draw for the masses, then develop those existing plazas and parks that AREN’T being used with buildings. Put those spaces on the property tax rolls. Seems a developed property would be worth more from that stand point than a park. IMO
Once the building is gone it is gone.
Case in point. There is a certain place that I frequent that this location had been in place for decades but it didn’t have a drive thru and the way the building was situated on the lot, it would have been difficult for them to add one on. Drive-thru sales can easily account for 50% of their business. They decided to tear down the building and rebuild in the same location but reconfigure the site for a drive thru. I had hoped to be able to salvage some of the interior elements before demo but sadly they bulldozed the building yesterday. Now what glimmer of hope I had is gone. The building is gone and the salvageable items are in a dump somewhere. They didn’t have any value to the owners, but it had value to me.
Guess what, CHK, Devon, Sandridge, and the Daily OK/Gaylord Entertainment can do whatever they want in this town, they own it and run it.
If Devon wanted to tear down the Skirvin and build a parking lot, Cornett and the city council would fall over themselves to make it happen.
So that’s how it goes when there are only a few players in town. This is one of the biggest problems with the diversity of OKC, not only are their just a few big companies, there is really only one industry (oil and gas).
This means we just do what we’re told and hope for the best. Sort of like the new MAPS, we give them the tax dollars and hope we get something sort of good in return.
Plazas are rarely, if ever, utilized if you’ve seen the few that still exist in bigger cities. They’re a mistake of a bygone era in most places. They are usually a slight improvement on a parking lot, and little else. Now, a square is different. A square is usually surrounded by shops, restaurants, apartments and businesses. It frequently has a bus stop and a taxi stand, is lined with benches and it is a place to sit and relax during a busy day of shopping/walking in a city. If there was any hope of the the plaza being a destination, or a place of rest, it might be different. But, there’s nothing around the plaza to draw people there. People who work at Sandridge will be doing just that: working. I doubt Tom Ward wants them spending their day lounging around the plaza. There are no shops or restaurants in the area. No one lives there. There’s probably no reason for a bus stop or taxi stand. So, it will remain a paen to the great god Concrete, I fear.
I’m having trouble seeing how this is good for downtown, or even Sandridge. That’s what I find so mystifying. If people had been fighting them tearing down a building on land they wanted to use to build a tower I could understand it. But, to act as aggressively as they did in order to build a square of concrete that will hold no employees, serve no function, completely baffles me.
Ethan, you are dead on. As much as I would like to say otherwise, this is one of the indications that OKC is not a major league city yet. OKC has been diversifying its economy for the past two decades, but in terms of power, there is only one industry.
While being a single-industry-dominated town is not to blame per se for this happening, the lack of diversity of thought (or the lack of its expression) among major civic leaders is never healthy for a city. No one is willing to take a stand if a club member does something wrong. The relationships are just too intertwined.
Part of it is small town sensitivity — people want to be thanked and congratulated just because they are doing something proactive in the city. The city’s design codes are disliked by some because it makes it tougher to improve a property. But if they are fulfilled, the result is a much better-looking neighborhood. Likewise, for OKC to be major league, it needs to set a much higher standard for its itself in the way business is conducted.
Otherwise, the message will always be Toe the line, or be marginalized.
I just don’t understand anyone that would support this project, besides the PR people from Sandridge that are on this blog.
This company has been losing billions of dollars for the last 3 years and they want to spend millions of dollars to tear down historic buildings that can be reused for a poorly designed plaza.
I just don’t understand. Tom Ward is on a power trip.
I also find it disgustingt that he would threaten a non-profit organizations future in the state for wanting to preserve the history of our state and the urban structure of our Capitol city.
I just hate how the city has folded under this pressure from a company that is not as big as you think they are. Chapparal is bigger! American Fidelity is bigger! Loves is bigger! Need I go on! Those are profitable comapanies that have been in the city for so for many years.
If we don’t put our foot down somewhere we will never be a “REAL CITY”.
I just don’t understand anyone that would support this project, besides the PR people from Sandridge that are on this blog.
This company has been losing billions of dollars for the last 3 years and they want to spend millions of dollars to tear down historic buildings that can be reused for a poorly designed plaza.
I just don’t understand. Tom Ward is on a power trip.
I also find it disgustingt that he would threaten a non-profit organizations future in the state for wanting to preserve the history of our state and the urban structure of our Capitol city.
I just hate how the city has folded under this pressure from a company that is not as big as you think they are. Chapparal is bigger! American Fidelity is bigger! Loves is bigger! Need I go on! Those are profitable comapanies that have been in the city for so for many years.
If we don’t put our foot down somewhere we will never be a “REAL CITY”.
Don’t mess with J.R. Ewing!
If the Ewings want plazas they get plazas! You should all be happy J.R. doesn’t want to tear down more buildings, yet. Like the man said, just swallow their bitter pill.
“Grow of Die!”
Astute observation Mr. Hill. This of course means you’ve been following this entire thread. And that means that you are automatically entitled to take two days off from being on the computer – and you should immediately do one of your famous drives around town (you’re overdue) and then quickly provide us with one of your wonderful reports.
BTW: when is your next world tour?
Like much of the rest of the world, I’ve had to tighten my belt of late; it may be some time before I hit the road for more than a day or two. (Putting a new roof on the house cut my road-trip fund considerably.)
Another reason why I am getting out of this city!