What study are they referencing that is two years old? I thought the ULI study just came out? If this is something different, was it considered during the Core to Shore process?

If it’s only 50 yards further than the Cox Center, I don’t get what the big deal is. Tempest in a teapot.

Jeff,

In saying that “it’s only 50 yards further than the Cox Center” you are parroting remarks by a city official that are inaccurate.

The facts are:

* The walking distance from the Cox Center to the center of Bricktown (Oklahoma Avenue at the Canal)is 1,430 feet.

* From the Lumber Yard site recommended by the HOK Convention Site Study and the ULI Panel to the center of Bricktown is 1,120 feet.

* From the site depicted on the Core to Shore plan on the east side of the new park to the center of Bricktown is 3,120 feet. This is 3/8 of a mile further than the current distance — a major difference for a convention-goer on a lunch break.

Get the facts. If you don’t believe me, go walk it or get on the county website and measure it for yourself.

This is hardly “a tempest in a teapot.” Rather, it is a matter of crucial importance to the future of downtown, Bricktown and the new park. The Core to Shore convention center site is bad for the new park (read The Death and Life of Great American Cities, Jane Jacobs’ classic on urban land use) and bad for Bricktown (just go ask the Bricktown property owners).

For the record, neither I nor any member of my family own any property in downtown, Bricktown or Core to Shore. We do own an interest in the Downtown Airpark property, west of Western Avenue on the south bank of the Oklahoma River. The site closest to our land is the one I am arguing against.

Kirk Humphreys

Because it is much more than 50 yards further than the Cox Center, door to door.

1. Did the News 9 piece ever really address the issue? Looks to me like it just shows important people yacking.

2. Russell Claus says it’s only 50 yards further.. he must have not shown much promise in surveying sites when he was at MIT studying city planning.

3. Even if it were “only 50 yards” (which it aint) it is still divided by a railroad tracks, Shields/E.K. Gaylord, and the supercalifragilistic boulevard planned by Mayor Mick.

Pat: the Convention Center Study was commissioned by the Chamber and was the basis for what we got in MAPS 3. Steve may be able to clarify, but if not mistaken the Core to Shore Report came out first (so they weren’t privy to the C.C. report).

after watching the video clip, the Study they showed appears to be different from the Chamber’s study or the Core to Shore report. So now I don’t know…Steve?

Jeff, it’s much much further than 50 yards. Come down here and see for yourself.

The study referenced is the HOK study dated 13 January 2008.

Slim and Wendy, I hate to break it to you, but the guy from the planning department said it was only around 50 yards difference. Did you even watch the video? Even if it’s a little more than that, I don’t see the big deal. People need to walk a little anyway. It’s good for them.

Jeff, of course they’re going to say that, the city wants it by the park.

Again, come down here and look at the sites yourself.

Be informed.

Questions noted.

When I made my comment at 2:07 PM, the Kirk Humphreys comment wasn’t up there. After reading that, it makes more sense I guess. All I know is that I watched the video and the city planning guy said 50 yards. I believed him. I still don’t quite understand why he would misrepresent the distance. Is it possible that the door to the convention center is closer than what’s being said? Just south of the Ford Center seems pretty close to Bricktown to me.

OK, Mr. Humphreys told me to get the facts. Fair enough, since I called some people out. I really don’t have the time to come down and walk around down there, but Google Maps introduced walking distance/time a while back. I know where the lumberyard is that they are talking about and I kind of know where the central park site is. Where exactly would the front door to the convention center be if it were built on the central park location?

It’s true: even former mayors aren’t safe from the mighty spam filter.

Jeff,

The Core to Shore master plan shows the new convention hotel on the corner of Robinson and SW 3rd (the Boulevard). The convention center site is one block south of that. So the closest pedestrian access to the convention center would be at the corner of SW 4th & Robinson.

So we have the recommndation of the ULI. We have the HOK report. We have some valuable direction that we could basically just put into place without questioning the risk, more or less.
So who is pushing the site south of the Ford Center? And why? At this point, should it should even be a serious option? I can’t for the life of me see why we’d pay a think tank of experts to lay this out for us and then ignore this one critical piece. Something doesn’t add up.

Thanks for that info. I found some pictures on line. Does it have to be Robinson? I guess it would have to be if it fronted the park. Could you put doors on Shields? What would be on the park side? I’m looking at it on Google Maps and I guess it really is pretty far. I hadn’t really thought about the walking to lunch thing. Looks like it would be about a half-hour round trip walking, based on where you’re saying the door would be. Longer if you were going to places on Sheridan.

Steve:
Why haven’t you talked about HOK report before? I’ve never heard of HOK. Is it on the City website like Core to Shore?

Hurrah, Kirk Humphreys! That’s all I’ve got to say.

Pat – question noted.

so what is question noted, are you going to answer them all at the same time with a different blog post?

SW 4th and Robinson to the corner in front of Bricktown Brewery is .7 miles or 13 minutes walk time. I didn’t know how to make Google Maps look at the canal as an address. Google Maps: http://tinyurl.com/ybnp62v

The current distance from the Cox Center is .1 miles or 2 minutes walk time. Google Maps: http://tinyurl.com/ydn5fqg

The lumberyard distance is .3 miles or 6 minutes walk. Google Maps: http://tinyurl.com/y8butrp

I stand corrected that it wasn’t that far. I’m not sure I would expect most people to walk that distance to lunch or even dinner. I guess it is worth talking about. But they’ll still have the street car, cabs and their own cars to get them to and from, so it might work out.

Think about a convention in the Summer Heat or Winter Cold Wind. Who would want to walk a long distance to Bricktown or Hotels in the extreme Oklahoma weather. Oklahoma Summer heat is not nice if you are from the North areas of USA. Oklahoma Winter wind and temp. is bad if you are from Southern areas of USA.

I’m sorry folks, for possibly stepping on toes here, but I believe that everyone involved, Chamber, Bricktown Assn., the Council, and the financial interests should STOP RIGHT NOW, and look at the long-term, 50-year cycle of the CC.

Should it be adjacent to the Ford Center? It seems everyone agrees, YES. Should we spend lots of money to simply acquire land to put this where we want?

What is it going to be?

On the 50 yards issue, to be fair to Russell, the boundaries of the two sites are separated by the railroad and Shields rights of way — a couple hundred feet.

Though the property boundaries are near each other, this is not where the entry doors would be. The Core to Shore convention center site is depicted to be south of the convention hotel, 2,000 feet further from Bricktown than the Lumberyard site.

Does anyone have a link to the report mentioned in the video?

It is my understanding that the ULI panel recommended deciding on the location of the convention center as a top priority, and not the actual construction of the convention center. It seems to have been reported that the panel’s recommendation would totally overturn the proposed MAPS 3 implementation timeline. I don’t think this is the case.

Larry, I believe you can request a copy of the HOK report from the city.

I’ve seen it, but not electronically.

Pat: HOK is a behemoth nationwide architectural firm. A division of theirs does most of the new sports venues across the country, including the addition to Memorial Stadium in Norman.

Somewhat related…

“Wenger selected to lead MAPS 3 program” MAPS3 Press Release http://twitdoc.com/c/pcrxa4

Looking at Jeff’s google maps, this is no-brainer. The SE 3rd and Compress site is easily the best site for the convention center. It is closest to bricktown and will most easily tie the CORE to the SHORE.

If it doesn’t go there, then it should go in east bricktown.

Matt, does HOK also build convention centers? Or are they just a sports venue company?

I’M GOING TO POST A LINK TO THE HOK REPORT LATER THIS AFTERNOON

Nevermind. I found their website. Should have been easy enough! http://www.hok.com Ha!

The HOK division that is responsible for stadia & convention centers is now known as Populous.

http://portfolio.populous.com/projects/convention/index.html

(reCAPTCHA: baby inedible) haha

That’s quite the track record. I guess they know what they’re talking about.

There is no rational reason to put the convention center on the park. I think the city has decided if they don’t put it there, nothing will develop there for years to come.

Proximity to hotels, restaurants, bars, movie theaters and other entertainment should serve as the criteria for selecting a convention center site. Period. We should not simply consider what is best for convention business, but consider what is best for the City as a whole.

After reading the HOK Convention Site Study, it is clear that there are only two sites worth considering. The #1 ranked site on the Lumberyard south of Bricktown and the #2 ranked site on East Main Street north of Bricktown. While the Lumberyard site might be better from a purely convention business perspective, the East Main Street site, with improved proximity to the CBD and existing hotels, including the Skirvin, might be the better choice from the OKC community’s perspective.

Have a look for yourself and see what you think. Here is the HOK Study obtained from the City: HOK Convention Center Site Study – January 2008

MARSH (all caps): Thanks for posting the link. I’m curious that you would be so vociferous on this issue, when you have exhibited a history of poor design decisions. Your parking garage is the single ugliest use of cement with its leaking lime deposits in Bricktown, and your lack of vision and creativity regarding the Hampton Inn and its lack of balconies overlooking the outfield of the ballpark showcases your disinterest in what the public truly wants. Why is the location of the convention center suddenly your concern?

“MARSH” pretty much hit the nail on the head. The East Main Street site in northern Bricktown has many more advantages than disadvantages in my opinion. Especially when you start to think about the idea of building the convention hotel (or a civic plaza with a mix of uses) adjacent to the site along EK Gaylord (across the tracks to the west) and wrap the Santa Fe Parking structure (huge eyesore anyway). This would open up pedestrian access either through sub (tunnel already exists mid block under the tracks) or above track for pedestrian flow both from Bricktown to downtown and from the convention center to either district. Here are some other ideas behind my endorsement of the East Bricktown site in no particular order of importance;

1) The parking is already built (Santa Fe) that can be taken advantage of or added to lower costs
2) EK Gaylord can be cut off between Robert S Kerr/NE 2nd Ave and East Main Street (has happened before did nothing to traffic congestion) and Jeff Speck (http://www.okc.gov/Planning/resources/OKCSpeckFINAL.pdf) would applaud us for improving walk ability and creating safe access between the two districts (and people a crosswalk with a 45 second timer across sometimes 6 lanes of traffic doesn’t count as walk ability)
3) An internal plaza could link people from the convention center to the plaza out in front of the Skirvin and Chase tower in the heart of downtown (Park Ave) and also connect to the underground concourse.
4) Instead of building a 500 key hotel tower attached to the convention center you can build a serious of smaller hotels, or boutique hotels, in downtown and Bricktown….possibly even build some of those keys/rooms some over EK Gaylord and wrap the garages. Not to mention the large number of rooms that would be in easy walking distance in both districts. This would give all existing hoteliers the opportunity to be considered for convention goers.
5) There is room for expansion to the east of the Mickey mantle Dr/Walnut Ave overpass and the possibility of having an access point for pedestrians into the convention center from the overpass bridge itself.
6) The southern access point from N Oklahoma Ave into the convention center could be outstanding and the existing structures (or facades) can be left to incorporate the history of Bricktown into the new convention center district.
7) Because of it’s proximity to Santa Fe Station (if it is concluded that this is the likely multi-modal transit hub location) and existing rail infrastructure this site could either be in a short walk from the hub (if it is Santa Fe) or be considered for the hub itself within the convention center.

I agree with some past commenter’s who said that the convention center site, as it is in Core to Shore plan, doesn’t do downtown or Bricktown any good. The Core to Shore plan, no matter how it turns out (and people IT IS GOING TO CHANGE) should complement the downtown, bricktown and surrounding “urban” neighborhoods both south of the river and north of downtown, such as Midtown…not compete with them. Also I agree with the ULI Advisory Board’s opinion that in putting the convention center on the park essentially kills one of the best private development sites in the Core to Shore Plan.

LordGerald, you know I’ve always valued your contributions to this site. That said, I’m going to insist that this thread be kept to the topic at hand. If you want to make an issue out of how the garage and hotel were designed, we’ll make that a separate post and discussion for another time. I’m not real keen on posters with fake names going after other posters, especially when the targets are posting with their real names. I’ve known you to be a good, respectful participant in this blog. It seems like one can question MARSH’s reasons for his criticism without attacking his own past projects.

(Note: Sorry for typo’s on previous post I was commenting on the go from my phone and my large fingers were no match for the tiny keyboard..thanks)

A lot of good info here, but the one thing that still confuses me is, where did this HOK study come from? It looks like it was done back in 2008 and gave evaluations on all the potential sites. I don’t understand why the City has never referenced this study as they have discussed the topic of a new CC?
Steve, are you ever going to clarify this?

I’ve saved the above post on my computer should something happen to it.

I’m not sure if anyone mentioned this but isn’t there a good possibility that the new street car system will connect core to shore (therefore the convention center) and bricktown?

I realize that 3,000 people can’t take a street car at the same time but if it does connect the two, walking distance wouldn’t seem to be as big of deal.

I’m surprised LordGerald isn’t smart enough to understand why someone who’s made a $40 million dollar investment in Bricktown and Downtown Oklahoma City might actually care where the Convention Center goes.

People seem to like the Hampton Inn as it’s the #1 hotel in Oklahoma City according to TripAdvisor. Not to mention the increase in revenues the Hampton Inn has brought Bricktown businesses. Balconies are a liability that do nothing for the overall design of a hotel.

Hank,

You kind of answered your own question. Not everyone can take the street car so walking distance is a big deal.

My only personal experience with street cars is in Memphis and while they were fun to ride to get an idea of where stuff was in downtown it took forever for one to come back to you. So if you’re standing in front of the convention center with 3,000 other people and have 2 hours for your convention lunch break, you’re most likely going to be walking because the it’ll take you an hour to get your ride on the street car.

So you and 100 people are attending a professional/business conference and it’s lunch time. It’s a “networking” day so you all will be leaving the convention center for lunch to check out the local restaurants. You all leave the center at the same time. Everyone should be able to walk out of the front doors and head towards their destination – on foot – have lunch and be back within an hour. No depending on street cars/cabs/shuttles, etc. People will choose a convention site based on the ability to reach local destinations on foot. It’s a very basic need as far as convention centers just like hotels, etc.
You have to locate your convention center as close to these sorts of businesses as possible. It’s a very basic requirement. That’s why it’s hard to understand why some of these other sites are even being considered. It doesn’t make sense.

Good point Kim. Just look at the Convention Center in Denver. Right smack downtown within walking distance of hotels and restaurants.

Taken from the Colorado Convention Center website:
http://denverconvention.com/our-center.html

“The Colorado Convention Center is located within easy walking distance of over 7,000 hotel rooms, and it is also within safe walking distance of 300 restaurants, nine theatres of the Denver Performing Arts Complex and a wide variety of shopping opportunities.”

The San Diego Convention Center is another successful facility where all the restaurants and entertainment are basically right across the street.

Don’t worry Anthony. No matter where the new convention center is located, there will be restaurants and entertainment basically right across the street. Even if we have to build it from scratch.

One of the biggest and most successful convention centers is in Orlando. Restaurants aren’t close. Same in Chicago. Sometimes the convention center operator and hotel operator want captive audiences. City would have more leverage for hotel development if it was between the brick town location and the convention center. City will get more meals and concession money with location away from entertainment district.

Bill, if restaurants and shops are not to benefit from a convention center, and if taxpayers are being asked to pay to build the convention center and subsidize its operation, and to also subsidize construction of a conference hotel, then pray tell me, what’s in it for taxpayers? How does a community benefit if local businesses are to be sacrificed in favor of going all out for the conference organizers?

Convert the elevated BNSF tracks to a linear transportation corridor, with moving sidewalks, that allow people to walk from NW 4th all the way down to the new convention center/Central Park. They’ll be able to transfer to and from commuter rail, light rail/streetcar, and sidewalks. The elevated tracks separate the city, east from west, and still constitute a barrier between Bricktown and Downtown/Midtown. Resolve that by gutting the dirt beneath it and converting the sizeable square footage to good use.