Steve, I think I get your point but something that needs to be considered that can’t be accounted for with these satellite photos is 1) Who owns the land 2) Is it for sale and 3) What are they asking. You would be absolutely floored if you knew the asking prices for some of these properties. We have become victims of our own success in OKC in that so many people owning property downtown now have dollar signs in their eyes and just hold on to property convinced that the value wil just go up and up and up. As big as the issues are that you have been addressing the past 48 hours, I think the one thing that has not been considered is how to motivate property owners, be it in Bricktown, Midtown, etc., to develop properties rather than sitting on them forever. Any ideas?

The land is privately owned just as much as the land in Core to Shore is privately owned. And in Core to Shore the asking prices are up to $55 a square foot.

Core to shore is much more a clean slate than any of these other areas. But Steve it’s an oversimplification to say nothing else can be conceived, planned and started until other things are done, considering that “done” is a rather subjective term. I’m not sure Urban Renewal is “done.” With that approach there’s no point to do anything in Film row, the Asian District, the Plaza District, etc. The OKC law school should be forced to build put their facility in Mid=Town over Film row because Mid-town’s not “done” yet. What if someone would rather put their office development along the river than on 10th and Harvey? They have every right to do that and the city would be foolish not to provide as many options as possible for development $$$ correct?

Jeffrey, hypothetically speaking, if you owned property along the river in the core to shore area. Are you saying a developer/city has the right to take your property on the river for their “office development”? You know…for $$$ sake. The core to shore is just trying to create a new hot spot instead of infusing infill development in the hot spot that has been developing for years. It’s not fair to the businesses who took a chance in the areas that Steve mentioned above. Those areas all need more infill development to reach their true potential and spreading downtown too thin makes this very challenging.

Yeah, I think we get your point. I hope downtown is never “done” and I hope we can all agree that we don’t want thousands of cars to exit the new I-40 into a total wasteland.

After reading Jeffrey’s post you’d think Steve was a big ol’ Communist. It’s ironic that you bring up an “oversimplification” when you’re oversimplified so greatly that anti-C2S is anti-development.

Newsflash: C2S is not naturally happening development. It is greatly government incentivized, and while I hope 5/10 years from now it’s got a leg up on its own, that is the case now. This is n’t a private development initiative, it’s a big ol government development push. Take it for what it is. YES, the city of OKC needs to have a role in promoting downtown development. But as long as we’re talking about the GOVERNMENT, why shouldn’t our GOVERNMENT be working on Bricktown or MidTown still?

Sheesh, get real.

Here’s the qeustion for Jeffrey: if I have money to invest in development, do I want to invest it in an area no longer deemed a priority by local government and civic leadership, or do I want to invest it in area where my development is going to be incentivized to the greatest degree possible (Core to Shore)?
Consider that Bricktown, Automobile Alley and MidTown were all bypassed by MAPS 3 with the exception of a streetcar system that apparently won’t be launched for another decade. They are all excluded by Project 180. And the mayor’s plan as publicly stated (this will still require at least four council members to agree with him) is to place all other emphasis on Core to Shore, most notably in terms of the convention center and conference hotel.
BTW: I am not, nor have I ever been, a member of the Communist Party. I did, however, attend some pretty outrageous parties hosted by fellow college alum and The Oklahoman’s Food Editor Dave Cathey when we were both younger and incredibly foolish.

Was Automobile Alley and MidTown a part of MAPS I or MAPS II or the Ford Center Vote? I don’t think so, however, it was an offshoot of what we did vote on. Why will this not occur in the C2S area (new development)? Besides Bricktown, all these areas came to fruition because of the original MAPS. It was all money that came into downtown that would not have come otherwise. The overall downtown money “pie” was increased not just reallocated. This is also the hope and desire of those who support and want to see C2S proceed and succeed. We will have even more money coming into OKC and downtown that would not have come at all. Why did AA and MidTown begin to start with? Are they incentivized now to the greatest degree? I think it at least had something to do with Bricktown which wouldn’t have happened without MAPS. Obviously these series of posts are to show that more can be built in these areas, however, when are they “done”? When the vacant lot at 10th and Hudson is built on?

The questions in these posts definitely should be asked, but let’s also ask them of the other side. When are these places “done”? Why do people think there will not be even more investment in OKC with C2S which could also help all these areas? MAPS III will bring a park to downtown, what should be done with the space around it? Should we wait until these other areas are “done” before any development around the park proceeds? If yes to the last question, see question number 1 in this paragraph and repeat.

My Captcha is “brentano working”…I think someone has my computer bugged.

Private development tends to follow from initial public investment. Almost all of downtown’s districts have emerged as a result of significant improvements to infrastructure (streetscapes, parking improvements, signage, etc). It’s a false dichotomy to suggest that the city has to choose between downtown and C2S.

I almost typed a post about the streetcars being the best hope for Midtown to fill in, but then I got too upset that they apparently won’t be done until after 2020 and almost didn’t write anything because I’m in denial about that. Streetcar first is the absolute best way to implement MAPS3, and if we do streetcar first imagine what can already be accomplished by 2020. At a very very very minimum, they need to set a definite route and start running a permanent bus along that route to at least simulate the development incentive that the streetcar will have. That would help these areas along before Core to Shore begins to develop.

By the same token Steve – If I have money to invest in development, should I be forced to invest in certain areas over others because the former areas aren’t “done”? Should I be forced to put my business on W. Park Place, which gets perhaps 40 cars passing by a day because it’s not a through street? Should I forced to build behind Brown’s Bakery. Should my new office park be required to build across from the 3 sketchy houses on NW 9th? Generally there’s a reason those lots are empty. If this works, please force Whole Foods to build in Midtown instead of Classen Curve.

Automobile Alley and Midtown received government monies after the OKC Bombing which played a big role in bringing those areas around. THey were not the purely organic miracles some might suggest. I don’t want government ripping landowners off to get someone’s land in C2S. But the I-40 relocation is where it is. People will exit at Sheilds and Robinson and drive by something to get to downtown. I hope its not a bunch of dilapidated buildings for 15 years because we decided all these other areas had to meet someones definition of “completed.”

Who is “forcing” any developer to build anything anywhere? I am much more concerned when the City indeed forces someone to sell their property if they want to or not.

No one is forcing anyone to build anything anywhere . . . and never will as long as we reject the notion that certain districts have to be “done” before others can start.

No one is forcing anyone to sell, yet. Though I must admit that Upper Bricktown would be in a much better position if certain owners had been forced to do something with their property rather than just let it sit for 2 decades now. Hopefully we won’t make that mistake again.