2 thoughts:

1) Parking;
2) Parking.

I just went there this afternoon to spend money at Bass Pro and eat at Falcones with the family. Sure seemed crowded and successful to me. The clothing shops didn’t seem to be the right location. I think of Bricktown being an entertainment spot – not retail (Bass Pro is as much entertainment for the kids – big and small – as it is retail!)

Retail will never survive in Bricktown with high leases and lack of affordable and easily assessable parking. The only way retail will work is if someone builds an outlet mall where the main draw is shopping.

If I want to eat or have fun – I go to Bricktown. If I want shopping – its one of the malls.

Retail is being hit hard, all around our City. Just to be fair though, I think Lower Bricktown also has a Hotel, Sonic National headquarters, Red Pinn Bowling, and Residential. Say what you want about the design, but they have done a good job of getting good tenants and most of them are “long term” and are an asset for Bricktown today and it’s future.

I’ve never thought of Bricktown as a traditional “retail” location. Bass Pro sort of transcends retail into “tourist attraction,” but I think most people go to Bricktown for food or drink or a sporting event.

I’m not the right demographic for the type of retail clothing that was located there and closed recently (I’m more of a Bass Pro guy), but I thought those stores were too limited in their appeal.

But, I don’t know what the answer is. What type of retail to open and then what type of audience are you going for? I guess those are age-old questions that will only be answered when the right retailer hits it.

Check out Lower Bricktown’s Facebook page… it says they have Texadelphia coming soon

Still need more permanent people in Bricktown before you can count those two retail closings a trend towards success or failure. My wife really liked Firefly, but thought that LIT was too geared towards a certain group of people.

There needs to be a critical mass. I think OKC will gain some retail, lose retail for a few more years before we get over that “hump” so to speak…

The parking argument will haunt Bricktown forever. Lol. Randy Hogan built a sprawling complex with ample free surface parking. Parking was never a problem for the retail there. Lots directly behind each store and overflow around the theatre. It was only difficult at night durring peak movie viewing. The products they were selling depend on people with disposable income. It was/is simply the wrong products at a time of recession. That market will come back with the economy in due time and be more successful if teamed up with more stores in a specific area. “One stop shopping excursion for the ladies.”. Destination stores catering affluance are going to have it tough in this environment.

Scott, there is accessible and FREE parking in Bricktown right by your beloved Bass Pro. A sea of it.

Lower Bricktown is a fail because of Bass Pro and Hogan. I’d be money had we pursued a 2-3 story IKEA instead of the suburban Bass Pro, we’d have all kinds of urban infill around it.

I agree with the poster, Bricktown won’t take off until rents become realistic. The City doesn’t seem to interested and enforcing codes either.

I agree Steven. There is plenty of parking, too much actually. They need to build up those parking lots into parking garages instead of suburban vasts of paved parking.

Lower Bricktown is a mixed success. Anything east of Toby Keith’s is fail. The area directly west of Toby Kieth’s, the built up area with the Centennial, Harkins, Falcones and Sonic is success.

The problem with Lower Bricktown is not it’s design, but it’s density. The only true urban portion of LB is the immediate area around the plaza. The amount of paved parking is disgusting. I hope some Bricktown leaders and developers read this.

THE AMOUNT OF PAVED PARKING IN OUR SO-CALLED PREMIER URBAN DISTRICT IS PLAIN DISGUSTING. This is not the I-35 Corridor in Moore.

There is also free parking at the compress lot (The big lot next to U-haul)if you visit any one of the Lower Bricktown tenants and keep your receipt. say your going to a thunder game, run into Bolero, Redpin, In The Raw grab a beer, or Starbucks grab a coffee than show your receipt the the gate operator when you leave later that night… So parking is not the problem

It’s a Fail. Bass Pro is why. It totally doesn’t fit into the flow of anything else, isn’t meaningfully connected to the canal, and is separated from everything by an ocean of parking. Needs to be retail.

Correction – needs to be more accessible to pedestrians retail with some residential mixed in.

Retail needs synergy. None of the retail seems to fit together and so you haven’t created a destination for shopping. What you have is incidental shopping which is unpredictable and fickle. If there was a shopping “area” within Bricktown (ala what Bob Funk was trying to create), a “village” if you will, then people would come shop because they could actually “shop” in multiple interesting store. One or two scattered retail shops doesn’t provide any energy or synergy. Bricktown has taken off because it is an entertainment DISTRICT. To have shopping we need a shopping DISTRICT. IMHO

Of course LB is a fail. It’s not even a success from a leasing standpoint anymore, one of the few bright spots it used to have. OCURA needs to be shot over this and other monumental failures.

People are still crying about parking? Christ people. As the parking study concluded there is more than enough parking in Bricktown. Stop perpetuating the parking “myth.”

Two thoughts:

1. Silly
2. Silly

There is a GIANT, ridiculous SEA of ALWAYS-FREE parking surrounding the former location of Firefly. Firefly and Lit were BOTH easier to access than a store inside the mall.

Regarding rents, in Bricktown the rents are generally far less than what you would pay in a mall, or most decent strip centers. They have been for years.

If you want to lay blame at the feet of owners, it should be for a general lack of aggressive marketing of space, combined with an unwillingness to subdivide large floorplates. They also should at times get some guff for allowing marginal vendors, restaurants or whatever, to land in the district. Just because someone can sign a lease doesn’t mean they are a good fit.

But really, when are operators themselves going to be held accountable for missing the market that exists in Bricktown? Why do they always get a free pass when a place bombs? Why does everyone assume it is solely external forces contributing to the demise?

I’m not sure what the utility of seperating “upper” from “lower” Bricktown, is, but however you cut it, Bricktown has been a dissapointment precisely becuase it has failed so miserably at retail.

Also, Bill H has it just about right. Bricktown (or anyplace else) needs to have retail DENSITY to be truly successful. The Main Street model suggests that you need to have at least six closely located compatible uses to justify a trip by a consumer. Bricktown has this in spades as far as bars and restaurants are concerned, but has yet to pull this off with retail.

As soon as Bricktown can pull together a minimum of a half-dozen (and hopefully more) retailers who take into account the incidental (visitor and night-out) traffic, the destination shoppers will soon follow. Don’t totally dismiss the incidental business; it occurs more in Bricktown than any other place in OKC and is still important to survival.

Unfortunately, just slightly more than zero retailers in the history of Bricktown have adequately addressed the existing incidental business, while solely concentrating on destination shoppers. Until Bricktown itself is a destination for retail, this is a recipe for failure.

As a Main Street manager, and more importantly a 25 year old female shopper, I think the key is recruiting multiple retail businesses with as Bill H said, synergy. I frequently travel to campus corner in Norman to do shopping because I despise the mall, and I can likely find a variety of shops for what I need (only when I can’t find it in the Plaza District, of course). I realize thats a college demographic, but throw in some retail that could cater to young professionals and I’d shop there over campus corner and the mall any day. We’ve been conditioned by malls to have all of our options in one place, and I don’t think its realistic to think that will change anytime soon.

I’m talking about shops in Bricktown near the canal. I don’t want to park at the Bass Pro for free and walk several blocks to a shop. I know we do this in the malls, but coming to Bricktown for one or two shops isn’t worthwhile.

Bricktown isn’t designed well for a shopping district.

Somehow, it just doesn’t seem that there is the same foundation of community-building spirit among leaders in Bricktown as there is in the booming specialty retail zone of the Plaza District.

Everyone has the right idea, that retail needs other retail. So, basically what we need is a lot of retailers to open simultaneously, or within a 1-2 year period (see Plaza District). Some type of cooperative marketing of the retail spaces would be really helpful- For instance, team up all the property owners with retail space for lease along the upper canal, and market the space as if it were a single development seeking multiple retail tenants. The prospective tenants would feel more comfortable knowing that the entire area will be leased, similar to what would occur in a new mall or shopping center.

Lower Bricktown is an unqualified success. There are too many people here who never took the canal ride when there was nothing south of Reno but a big pile of red dirt where the theater is now. Randy Hogan pulled off a miracle down there when it looked like lower Bricktown would never get off the ground after the whole Moshe Tal fiasco. Everything east of Toby Keiths is a fail? Really? Residence Inn? Bass Pro? Sonic Headquarters? Lit rode the wave into Bricktown and the wrong time and paid the price. Firefly actually had a pretty good multi-year run at their spot but high-end clothing is just getting killed right now by the economy. Those two storefronts will be filled before anything fills the canal level in upper bricktown.

If you took a census as to amount of daily visitors to lower Bricktown versus Upper Bricktown, lower Bricktown wins by at least 3-1. If there has been a failure anywhere in Bricktown, it is canal front in upper Bricktown.

I would measure the success of Lower and Upper Bricktown by foot traffic counts. From the naked eye, Lower Bricktown wins. Also, how will the coming boulevard and possible convention center construction influence the property values of the ginormous surface parking lots east of Toby Keith’s?

Jeffrey’s right….How many empty storefronts are there on the Upper Canal? And how many possible storefronts are covered in sand and old gum? For an area everybody considers such a success, there sure is a lot of work and infill to be done.

Shane: The Plaza is a BOOMING retail zone? It’s anchored by a huge dollar store and a large thrift store, which is fine, but not what I would consider BOOMING retail.

Though, to be fair, if you add the crack sales at the convenience stores in the plaza, I guess we are talking about some serious retail.

The problem with upper bricktown (along the canal) is the property owners and the fact that they will not update their buildings. It’s like all the property owners in bricktown are waiting for their big payday. All you have to do is look at the news to understand the days of $2million transactions are over for now.

The property owners have a responsibility to the district to improve their buildings and acquire tenants. Until that happens we will continue to have boarded up buildings along the canal.

Slim, you are right on!

I just returned from downtown Baltimore over a long weekend, and I echo many of the comments above. I visited not only several boutique retail, classic retail but several “big box” retail establishments (Best Buy, CVS, etc.) that have entered the Inner Harbor area as well. What was different? clusters of hotels in an IN-TACT downtown as well as massive amounts of high-/medium-/low-rise residential.

The Hampton I stayed at was in the old USF&G Bank Building with the lobby reminiscent of the 1890s. (Just think what could be done with the First National Bank Building with the hotel lobby in the grand lobby, and hotel floors above, possibly mixed with retail and/or commercial)

But the main difference I saw was — People. Not just tourists, but runners, families out after church, business people, etc. The downtown was for people! I really think that until we can unify the downtown (and near-downtown) areas into a cohesive, desirable place to be, it doesn’t matter whether upper or lower Bricktown wins. We need to have people–living, visiting, enjoying all the urban areas–before any retail can succeed.

Steve thanks for doing a post on this…I made this comment on one of your previous posts that was slightly unrelated and one of your followers replied to me that big things were coming in the next 6mths to bricktown; that 6mths should run out around April if I’m remembering right so do you know anything yet about what these big things are? Looks like we’re going in the wrong direction…

Kodiak, I’m trying to get this on the record, but here’s the story: yes, some big projects have been in the works. But I’m hearing the people behind some of these projects are getting a bit skittish due to what they perceive to be a push to build a new convention center further away from Bricktown and to the benefit of Core to Shore. Stay tuned.

James Evans – Yes, name another non-mall retail area that has open stores to the likes of Bad Grannies Bazaar,Collected Thread, DNA Galleries, JuJu Gallery, No Regrets, Shop Good, Photo Art Studios, Lyric Theatre, Paula and Company, Velvet Monkey Salon, Lyric Theatre, Cafe Evoke (also the site where Iguana Grill chef/owner Ryan Parrott operates the exclusive “Table One”), Scorecard and a couple small eateries …oh, and that “huge dollar store” you mentioned.

They also have a monthly art walk “LIVE on the Plaza”

Sounds like you have a huge grudge on 16th for some reason, or I might just have a huge crush on the executive director…it’s one of the two, or maybe both.

I know this post isn’t about Plaza District, but to defend we have had 13 businesses open within the last 2 years, and 8 of those are retail. No, they aren’t the type of retail Bricktown needs but they are small, locally focused, creative shops that attract a young, urban audience and add to the flavor of a diverse neighborhood– which is not anchored by a dollar store, but rather the 7 million dollar investment of Lyric Theatre at the Plaza.

Kristen, I think those types of retailers are EXACTLY what Bricktown needs. Should Bricktown also eventually be home to places like Urban Outfitters or Anthropologie or the hipster store d’jour? Sure. But those types of places are simply not expanding right now, anyway.

It’s funny how here and in other “water cooler” conversations I hear people decry the restaurant mix in Bricktown — supposedly all chains, though this is far from the truth — and then insist in the same breath that Bricktown needs to chase a bunch of huge national retailers.

Visitors and locals alike want authentic. They want local flavor. Bricktown needs to build a base of authentic, locally-owned retail before nationals even put it on their radar. Retail growth in Bricktown will have to be incremental, and stable local businesses will have to be here first.

Does that mean that Bricktown can learn something from the Plaza District? Absolutely.

Core to Shore is so far away from being a reality, it would be a shame to see a major “development” of some type pass Bricktown over because of a convention center that will be built in 8-10yrs.

The Lyric isn’t the retail anchor of the plaza, as it is not retail. I love that when people in OKC start touting the retail successes of downtown/midtown areas in OKC (whether it be automobile alley, bricktown, or the plaza)they lump dining and services (salons, tattoos) into the list of retail accomplishments.

The RETAIL anchors of the plaza are the giant dollar store (which in size and, I’m guessing sales, is the RETAIL anchor of the plaza), and maybe the big thrift store on the corner (or the Guatamalen general store).

The original claim I was arguing against was that retail in the plaza is BOOMING. I think that is a huge exageration. And I don’t see how being honest about what has or has not been accomplished in an area in downtown or midtwon OKC equals being anti-OKC, anti-16th, or whatever.

But James, what other areas anywhere in the country have had so many unique, local retail businesses open in the last couple of years? There are 4 or 5 stores there that sell locally crafted or specialty clothing and gifts. The area has gone from obscurity and abandonment to one of the favorite places for young, creative people to live and shop. The Plaza District is really special, it has sprung up out of nowhere, it’s a huge success, and it deserves that recognition.

Apologies James, I misunderstood your comment. Lyric is surely not the retail anchor of the district. I don’t believe anyone noted that retail was booming, but rather that we have attracted a cohesive group of local retailers within a short period of time. Due to the mixed use zoning here, most of the retailers live in the back of their stores which makes it possible for these young business owners to operate. Give us a few more years, and the district will be booming as much as our 1 1/2 block area can handle!

Kristen, the focus of this thread is retail and I was responding to a comment by Shane that retail was BOOMING in the plaza, so someone did make that statement.

Beyond that, several commenters have noted that the plaza should be a retail model for Bricktown, indicating basically that the plaza has gotten retail right while bricktown has not. I’m not convinced. Retail in the plaza right now is largely discount and thrift, which is fine, but certainly not a retail model for bricktown. Plus, if you’re letting the owners of said retail establishments live in that retail space, then this model really wouldn’t work for bricktown.

Shane: I don’t think the plaza sprung up out of nowhere. The city invested significant resources in streetscaping the area, which preceded (an allowed) the current growth. And you don’t think anywhere else in the country has had the retail growth of the plaza????

The lyric theater may not be an Anchor in the traditional sense, but it surely draws people to the Plaza district.

The plaza right now reminds me of a mini-version of what Deep Ellum in Dallas was 20 years ago. If retail were to realy boom in the plaza, then it would be a mini-version of what Deep Ellum looks likes today.

So the Lyric would be the “Granada?”

I’m one of several commentors who gave the Plaza District props, but I never said it should be a retail model for Bricktown, as in THE retail model. I said that Bricktown can learn something from the Plaza. I believe that’s true.

The Plaza District has done a good job of engaging property owners, partnering with a conerstone nonprofit entertainment and educational institution (Lyric), encouraging locally-based, interesting retail that caters to existing, pent-up demand, and its Main Street Program does an excellent job of promoting the retailers through PR and other means.

Bricktown certainly can (and has) incorporate(d) some of those same strategies, including partnering with and fostering the emerging presence of the Academy of Contemporary Music @ UCO in lieu of Lyric. While the scale might be different, and while the shop mix might not be exactly what Bricktown needs, to say that we can’t learn from one another’s success and failures ensures nothing but a repeat of the failures.

Tell me Jeffrey, if I am so incorrect, how anything east of Toby Keith’s isn’t a fail.

How does a corporate Sonics’ headquarters make me want to head to Lower Bricktown? It’s a harsh design for pedestrians and is certainly not inviting, and that’s not even taking into consideration that it serves no purpose for visitors in Bricktown. The Residence Inn looks like something straight out of Moore. It doesn’t border the street, and it doesn’t even border the canal except for about 20 feet. Heck, is a gate seperating it from locals; It is not good design. It does nothing for the canal area, It is merely a placeholder cookie cutter development. The only success about it is that it’s a hotel. The line stops there. BassPro. Sure. It’s a success I assure you, to the limited, very limited amount of people that shop there. It is destination retail, but the wrong kind. The people that shop there rarely spend anytime in Bricktown. They go only for the store itself. It might as well have been put along I-240. Oh and I guess you think those wonderful parking lots east of Falcones, east of Sonic, and bordering the length of the entirety of the canal after Toby Keith’s are just pure genius don’t you?

Put some sidewalks on the riverwalk in Moore and you’ve got the canal past Earl’s Rib Palace. I’m actually drawing back the line even more. Yes I agree. The Centennial Plaza is nice and it does attract more foot traffic. It is not bordered by one parking lot and while standing near the fountain, you actually feel sort of closed-in. It’s great. But, it by no means, makes up for the rest of that hideous development.

What are you? Hogan’s personal fan? It seems to me your qualifying it’s success by the individual components of the development and not the synergy of the entire district relevant to the pedestrian experience. Suburban thinking.

I thought this is an urban district. Or so it is called. A 17 year old can see this with his own eyes. I don’t see why you can’t.

Bricktown should be for entertainment, arts and crafts, food, hotels, music and fun place to go for tourists and locals. All restaurants, etc. should partner will the School Of Contemporary Music so students have a way to showcase what they have learned and make some money to pay for their school tuition. This would provide a constant supply of fresh music and talent. Housing and retail should be close to Bricktown within walking distance. Housing and retail needs to just be close not in Bricktown.

it’s a shame that attractive parking garages (multi-story) are so expensive to construct. that’s what we need, though. dense urbanity broken up only by beautiful parks, not parking. It’s what makes a city.

retail REQUIRES TRAFFIC, either by foot or car. since people aren’t going to give up their mobility, you either have to have suburban development or heavy foot traffic for retail to exist. the concepts are actually simple. it’s the application that seems to be vexing.

f’rinstance, when i was a kid, downtown still had shopping. it was jammed with traffic. main street was called “shoebox row,” because it had so many stores dealing in footwear and associated services. today, norman has the state’s largest and best automobile market (with apologies, but i’ve shopped them all). why? because everybody knows that if you want to go car shopping, there is a huge market there.

i hope we can work together for better development. i think what they ought to try to get next to bass pro is academy, sports warehouse, h&h gun range, etc. i say this not because downtown needs sporting goods, but because it would likely succeed.

Michael, you have a weakness that many others on this board have. You believe your view of Bricktown, IS the view of Bricktown. And your response proves this out.

How does Sonic headquarters make you want to come to Bricktown? Who cares? It’s a corporate anchor that brings a sizeable amount of execs to Bricktown EVERY DAY. They spend money in Bricktown every day. Are you really telling me you don’t get that?

All the Residence inn does is stay filled virtually all the time with folks that again, spend money daily in Brictown. Again, who cares if you think it’s not the perfect design. You want a hotel to be right on top of Reno- RENO? Again Michael, very questionable design sense on your part. A new hotel’s success is being, interestingly enough, a hotel. You want a destination hotel go stay in the Skirvin- comparing apples and oranges. For a long time the RI was the only hotel in Bricktown and the only reason the district has the Hampton (Which I’m sure you love) now is because of the success of Residence.

Bass Pro brings people into Bricktown that would have never stopped in OKC to begin with. It’s the PERFECT retail for Bricktown. It has the name that draws people off the highway. Name me another retail shop that can do the same. You’ll come up with the same type of concepts – Cabela’s, etc. People come in, eat lunch, see all the stuff, and decide that perhaps the next trip they’ll stop. Again, a win for Bricktown. For anyone to suggest that a limited number of people shop there either is ignorant of Bricktown or has an agenda. The facts simply can’t support your claim.

Who are you – Moshe Tal? “Synergy” is a subjective term and ffrequently manipulated by those with agendas. It’s very curious to concede that basically every component is a success but the district is a failure. To compare LB to Moore is another manipulative, silly remark since none of the elements you speak of (Sonic, Bass Pro) would never give Moore a sniff. When you sit outside of Sonic or Starbucks and see the big buildings of downtown, any suggestion of suburban must be rejected. Sorry.

Also keep in mind that actually, Bricktown is an Entertainment district not an urban district. Lower bricktown was actually not urban at all, just a bunch of undeveloped land.

If you really want to do something for Bricktown, quit complaining about Lower Bricktown, which currently carries the district, and spend more time splashing your hate on the Upper district, which has been absolutely killed by real estate investors owning property rather than developers. I don’t know Mr. Hogan but, like him or not, he’s the only person that seems to have been able to get something done, while canal front property on the upper side sits idle for over 10 years now.

Critical Mass.

OK friends, this has been a good discussion. But a couple of notes: we don’t need to engage in personal attacks. That means don’t say to one another “are you high?” A person can hold an opposite opinion without being high. To those of you used to having such discourse elsewhere, I realize this is a radical concept. But yes, we can disagree and be completely sober. One of you, by the way, has been told about this sort of thing before.
I have eliminated personal attacks from the above thread.

Legalize Gambling in Bricktown. Money and investors will flow into the city. You have Indian casinos everywhere now yet gambling is illegal. You can make districts in the city where gambling would be legal if not Bricktown. This would help diversify the local economy and bring more tax revenue and investment into OKC. You got casinos everywhere now but you are not taking full advantage of the revenue potential. You need things that will bring people in from outside the area or state which will increase tax revenue while locals pay less taxes.

Ed, we had a tribe that wanted to put a casino in Bricktown awhile back but the Mayor was very much against it. That same tribe wants to put one out by Frontier City. They have run into opposition there as well. Mayor Cornett along with the Oklahoman Congressional delegation signed a letter in opposition. A tribe can’t just buy land and it becomes “Indian land”. There has to be some historical claim to the land in question. And the land has to be put into Federal Trust. This particular tribe’s headquarters is located in the far northeast portion of the State and apparently have no historical claim. Then there is the issue as to who can operate casinos. In Oklahoma, it is limited to the tribes (with the exceptions allowed by law, i.e. Remington Park). Ironically, the tribe that recently purchased it don’t have any claim to that land either but the Rasino already existed so there most be some type of legal loophole there.