OMG!

Nice. I think having some uniform trees throughout the downtown area could really give OKC a distinctive look. I’d recommend against the Cypress — I’ve got one in my yard, and while I love the tree, the knees that pop up from it have a tendency to grow underneath things like concrete, which causes cracks as they try to burst up from underneath.

Personally, having lived in DC before I moved back here, I really miss the cherry blossom festival. DC has about 7000 cherry trees. Looking at the report, we’ll have about 2000 street trees downtown. I’d like us to start our own cherry blossom festival. It would make the city beautiful in the spring. Imagine if we started with 2000 cherry trees downtown, had more ranging down through the C2S area, and then lined the river (on both sides) with them. It could be a city wide event in the spring, and would draw thousands of visitors downtown every year.

Brian, the video was posted in your honor! You’re Cruise, I’m, well, I don’t know who I am (in good fun, of course)

I would rather use either dogwoods or redbuds which are more distinctive to Oklahoma, but same effect as the DC cherry blossums.

Well thank you. I love that movie by the way. Almost inspired me to go into the JAG corps. Almost.

blossoms*

I like all of the options presented in the document, except the lighting. None of those are choices are classy, elegant, or timeless. I say go back to the drawing board when it comes to lighting. Everything else has great potential. I like the emphasis on stainless steel, glass, and general sleekness throughout.

2/2/10 is the Public “Review” Meeting (the show ‘em what they’re gonna get meeting.) The public has absolutely ZERO opportunity for design input… and that is the right way to do it.

The lighting is already selected. Now we have 3 choices instead of 2. Whoopee. (At least the embarrassing “acorns” are gone.)

Overall, the plan is positive and I’m sure many people will be happy with the result, and many won’t. We should have known better than to think the design team would consider public input.

Steve, thanks for the streetscape document, but stop teasing us with delusions of input…

I like the 1st traffic light option. I don’t really care for the curved bar in the 3rd option. I also like 3rd light pole option the best, though none of them excite me. I think it’s the only one that’s halfway interesting.

By they way, this is not the same Brian as above….

Dennis, I’m not teasing here. I’m not saying this process is perfectly set up for public input: it’s not. But I do know who is reading this blog, and they’re not even close to deciding some of these issues. I’m suggesting that you, the readers of this blog, especially those of you with a lot of experience and exposure of your own, might influence the selection process by making suggestions here.
If you think you didn’t influence the design of the Bricktown fire station earlier this year, you’re very, very wrong. Likewise, you might make a difference this time around as well.

Wow. What a generic, unimaginative plan, overall. I don’t like the lighting choices at all. The bus stop options are interesting, but certainly trendy, and I expect they would feel dated very quickly. I’m underwhelmed.

I think the tree selection is fine–those trees are well-suited to our area and are pretty much what is recommended to plant here. Someone mentioned redbuds: unfortunately, they don’t live long enough and aren’t strong enough to really plant along city streets.

I really like the options for the bus stops, benches, and the forestation elements – Chinese Pistach is a wonderful tree for Oklahoma as well as the autumn blaze maples. I’m least impressed with lighting option 1 – though 2 & 3 don’t bother me quite as much. If there’s appropriate funding, they really should go with an LED option, in my humble opinion.

Is a design competition for lighting totally out of the question given the timeframe the city is considering?

Steve- I was wondering when someone was going to post the streetscape document. I appreciate everyone’s enthusiasm and willingness to speak their mind. But, the truth is this document was produced by a highly respected landscape architecture firm who knows what they are doing.

I feel compelled to defend those who work in my profession. We don’t use cherry trees because they would produce copious amounts of fruit, thus creating a stinky, sticky mess. After looking at the schematic design set for the streetscapes, I can say that the specified tree, shrub, and flower selections have all proven to be good urban performers in Oklahoma City.

Don’t get me wrong, I don’t believe anyone is bashing the plan or calling the qualifications of the landscape architects into question. But, the conversation over streetlights, traffic-signals, trees and such all seems to imply that everyday citizens know better than those trained to create urban environments.

My question is: where does this stop? Are we going to scrutinize the selection of paving materials, tree grates, and soil systems? If this project is to move quickly, we are going to have to accept the judgment and experience of our highly esteemed consultant. That’s the truth.

Why, oh why, can’t we have something like this for MAPS 3?

Brent, I agree we should respect expert information (especially as far as technical matters), but as far as pure design and aesthetics, I think there are several commenters here who have valid points. For example, I don’t think there is a true expert consensus on whether a straight pole or curved pole traffic signal is better. It think that is an area where a wide range of informed people can have valid opinions on the matter.

And let’s not forget…I. M. Pei was also a very well respected expert. Are we being disrespectful by even considering changing out his light fixtures?

I might also add that I like the bus stop designs, but I do worry about them looking dated in 10-15 years. I would also recommend a design with some walls for a windbreak against the stong north winter wind (and sideways rain). That may not be needed in Phoenix is San Diego, but it most certainly is here.

DESIGNERS,

Here are some excellent street lighting options…

Model “System Park:” http://www.pil-usa.com/news/coming.html

Models “Veo” & “Ratio:” http://www.tersenlighting.com/Default.aspx

Regarding the bus stops: please protect against horizontal rain, and 30 MPH winds (without standing on the bench). They are not uncommon here. Count on all silicon sealants turning red-dirt orange within a year…

I will take the bait and speak my mind.

I like the benches (Austin Bench/Stainless is cool)

I like the lighting generally (the round ones) a bit sterile but functional.

I do have some issues:

1st. The bus shelter could work for the proposed streetcar. Additional study needs to be placed into that. Also, the AIA conducted a “bus stop competition” http://www.okcbusstops.com which resulted in World Class results from architects across the globe. The problem was there was never funding for any of these great designs. If we have “world competitions”, why don’t we implement what is designed for us when the opportunity arises?

2nd Urban Neighbors put a great deal of hard work into a design competition and successfully won a funding grant from the city to install creative bike racks in the Bricktown, Auto Alley, and Triangle/Deep Deuce areas. The group led by board member Mark Gibbs installed a fantastic design we like to call “The Oklahoma O” bike rack. These are our own and could be easily adopted into the plan. They could be manufactured out of “rolled” stainless and fit into the sleek/modern plan.

3rd Hans Butzer helped master plan the area around the Memorial on fifth street. We battled the late Paul Brum for a descent streetscape that respected the memorial design and approach to the gates. The fight was tough and it gave birth to the neighborhood association. A similar ensuing fight resulted in positive results along Main Street. The 5th and Main streetscapes are new. Are they worth replacing?

4th and finally- If MAPS is approved, we will install a streetcar system. That is undeniable. The streetscape is a great gift from Devon to our citizenry. I am sure that they would not want to see it immediately torn up. Accelerate the route establishment process at the beginning of the year and assess streets that are slated to be reconstructed first. Modify the schedule of contracts accordingly to maximize the use of tax money and share related costs such as excavation and electrical to extend the reach of both projects. Share costs and schedules.

I have not attended a streetscape meeting as of yet and believe in the leadership at the planning level. However, I do think that the committee is being gracious in accepting the gift given by Devon and keeping many of these aesthetic decisions internal.

They would like to see the streetscape installed as part of the completion of the beautiful tower. However, be careful, respect the past, and try to meld opportunities into successful future projects.

The proposed streetcar should be considered and factored into the plan and the designs of light poles and shelters should be prepared to scale accordingly to minimize the need for replacement or modification.

The potential cost savings from excavation and utility line/power infrastructure are undeniable.

A first class streetscape should mesh with our potential World Class transit system.

Be careful and try to combine these two initiatives. And thank you Devon.

The bus shelters are contemporary, but very bland. They do not appear to “welcome” the passenger, nor inform the passenger.

I have lived in OKC all of my 47 years, so I am used to vertical traffic lights. The curve is a bit artsy, though.

I like red bud trees, but the idea of a variety of trees with a spectrum of Autumn color would make for a Fall Foliage staycation.

Brent, I do think Kyle has a point when he mentions I.M. Pei. We have brilliant architects here in town who I consider friends, who I admire greatly. And yet each one of them have had their ups and downs.
This is a very streamlined selection process, and what I’m trying to suggest is that while The Office of James Burnett may be far more qualified than this readership to do design work, I think there are some readers of this site who are every bit as educated as the folks doing the selection.

Citing Pei is completely reasonable. Clearly portions of his plan failed. However, we cannot condemn his whole plan or those who allowed it to be implemented. Following this logic would lead us to dismantle every plan executed in downtown Oklahoma City and demonize their creators. My point is that urban form is a palimpsest in which parts are added and subtracted. Successful design gestures are accepted and failures are removed.

The office of James Burnette (OJB) has put forth a selection of lights fitting within their theme. If in, say, 20 years we grow to hate the lights, we can unbolt them and replace them. Light poles are not to be revered.

The complexities involved with specifying street lamps on a project of this scope are beyond the knowledge of average citizens. To call out city planners, and OJB about their design intentions is a bit of an affront to the design and planning community.

Brent, if they’re ugly, we don’t want them. We can replace them in 20 years? How about we just don’t buy ugly ones in the first place. Saying “that is ugly” isn’t beyond the knowledge of average citizens. If you can’t tell, I’m pretty insulted by your total lack of respect for our opinions.

Now this is the sort of debate that I’m really interested in, and to be quite honest, uncertain who is right. Eagerly waiting for Blair, Dennis, Jeff and Nick to weigh in. Maybe we can also get an outsider like Michael Bates as well. Only question is whether we should make this a separate post and thread, or just keep this one going.

The tree selection is good, except the Red Maples and Tulip Trees. They don’t grow that well in the OKC area. They will do well for a few years and then decline. The Red Maples around town have only been planted for around five years or have some shade from other trees. They will not survive the harsh conditions of being street trees in OKC. The Tulip Trees do well in Stillwater, but the ones I have seen around town also need protection. The will not survive for that long in as a street planting.

The rest of the trees are great.

Nick, Dogwoods do not grow well in OKC, they needs almost full shade to do well in OKC. The do great in Tulsa and Stillwater with some shade.

Curt: I had dogwoods at a Norman house I lived at when I went to OU and they were great. I was never aware of any ‘special needs’ they needed and they looked awesome every March. If something does well a whole hour to the north in Stillwater I don’t see why it doesn’t do well in OKC. Same climate. I think you’re just a Cowboys booster with all this “these trees only grow in Stillwater” talk.

Jeff: You’re absolutely right. Thanks for bringing up a point I hadn’t thought of, that the streets are going to be torn up anyway to install the streetcar lines. If/when MAPS 3 passes in December they’re going to realize that there is no point in completing a streetscape before 2012 if they don’t intend to have the streetcars finished until 2012 as well (which I doubt). If so, then that suddenly become the highest priority project.

Jeff also brought up the bus station contest that I mentioned previously. http://www.okcbusstops.com/vote.php Here on the vote page, even though you can no longer vote, you can see all of the designs that were considered. Now when you look at those designs that were INTENDED for OKC at one point in time, and look at the document Steve jokingly calls the truth we can’t handle, it’s a bit disappointing. Why don’t we just use one of the ones from that design contest that we already had?

http://oktalk.net/bb/index.php?topic=3504.0 Here are several pics of the streetscapes Jeff Speck proposed for downtown just months ago. Why don’t we just roll with those? Personally I’ll admit I am not sure about the idea of a single unitary streetscape for all of downtown. Bricktown is incredibly unique from the Arts District, MidTown is incredibly unique from the Deep Deuce area, and so on. MidTown has actually got the beginning of what could be a very cool, bold streetscape design. Bricktown’s is also very nice, except for Reno Ave.

Speck had some excellent ideas as well. His proposals for Couch Drive and E.K. Gaylord are excellent. I like the idea of a grand entrance to the CBD at Robinson. The paving art is also a cool idea, which isn’t something we’ve done a whole lot, save for some circles and stuff in Auto Alley and a huge star in the Film Row streetscape’s intersections. This is an actual full-color image representing something about Oklahoma. I like. You’ve got to appreciate Speck’s other proposed enhanced urban plazas, art to adorn skyways, and alley gateways.

As for the actual specifics of what streetlamps we get, what streetlights we end up with..I actually like what I see from the document in this blog post. I don’t want to see them stray from anything that’s not black. I’d also prefer they avoid a really modern design just because what was modern for 1980 is no longer modern. Case in point: what the interior of KMG Tower used to look like. And as for the “acorn” streetlamps, I actually like those. I had never even noticed that they look like acorns until I heard people bitching about those. The fact is that they look good, and unless someone tells you they look like acorns, they really resemble the quintessential old-fashioned streetlamp. To me they look good. As long as they go with a classic design, and avoid painting metal any particular color, I don’t think they can go too wrong. I’d hate to see all the investment in the Bricktown streetscapes go to waste. With the streetlights, I think typically horizontal streetlights look better than vertical streetlights. I’ve just seen more horizontal streetlights in well-done downtowns or nice suburbs that I liked.

To sum up a really long post: We need to stop approaching this task like the Great Streetscape Project of 2012 is an independent project, or that the only other factor is Devon Tower. There are a million other factors that are being ignored. Not all streetscapes in downtown are bad, some are actually good. In a lot of places there has already been a plan (granted the CBD has been in need of a “plan” like MidTown and Bricktown) that is already well-underway. A lot of these plans have just been waiting for more funding. So now that the funding is there we just go straight back to Square 1? I don’t get it.

Steve,

Design-by-committee is a designer’s worst nightmare. Some members of the project team may periodically peruse your blog for entertainment and the stray good idea, but they already have more input than they want without coming here. 95% of the important decisions will have been made by the time the Design Development phase is presented in January. Our biggest opportunity to affect the outcome ended when the design team was selected.

You’re right when you say that many of your readers are professionals of equal standing with the design team, and others are just very interested and knowledgeable citizens. Jeff’s comments about accommodating certain aspects of a future streetcar system are logical. Many good ideas, constructive criticisms, and general complaints have been presented… It is a valuable forum, but there’s such a thing as information overload. The design team is bound by the established project scope (not to mention their contract, and business pressures) and must focus on delivering what they’ve contracted to deliver. We should trust that they are indeed the capable and talented professionals we hired, then sit back and enjoy the results.

In the mean time we’ll continue to bat it around here, because that is what we like to do!

Well said Dennis.

From what I’ve been told, streetcar alignments have been considered as part of the overall plan. The new designs should allow for minimal intrusion when the system is built. Disruptions could occur, but they are thinking about them. The problem with hurrying up the assessment is the Federal process. If we want Federal funds, then we have to follow their tedious process…

This whole process is unique. I haven’t done any research (and I think I’ll try this weekend), but this specific case has to be one of the largest TIF funded streetscape projects in the US, ever. The funding agreement, asking OJB to be overall consultant, must also be quite unique. Had this been all GO Bond funding, I would guess that the process would have been much more open. We wanted Devon here, so we had to play ball, for good or for bad. It’s tough too, because we wouldn’t want to look a gift horse in the mouth – this change is incredible – but we also don’t want a big change to be diminished by mediocre elements and pedestrian (no pun intended) improvements.

Dennis, the leaders of GM were supposed to be experts in their field as well. Are you suggesting we should trust that they are indeed capable and talented professionals, then sit back and enjoy the results? If so, which do you drive: a Cadillac Cimarron or a Pontiac Aztek?

I agree design-by-committee can be awful, and I know a thing or two about information overload. At the end of the day, I expect world-class professionals to present a well-conceived, well-thought-out, cohesive, unique, and attractive design that meets or exceeds the technical requirements of the contract. I’m not sure what I see here is all of those. I’m not questioning the professionals qualifications or capabilities…just the specific work product I see here. I will admit I am picky, though: average isn’t good enough around here anymore!

when you stray from native flora, you do so at your own risk. redbuds may only give about 6 weeks of beauty, but those weeks are oh-so-glorious indeed.

you don’t need a committee to say, “hey, let’s use native stuff! it will grow well and be low maintenance!” what IS needed is a staff member from the program “oklahoma gardening” as a consultant to whoever does the design. i’ve lived in oklahoma all my life, and i’ve come to love oak trees, bermuda grass, cottonwoods, redbuds, and honeysuckle. i also love the various wildflowers that we’ve been enjoying on highway rights-of way for decades.

this one’s a no-brainer. want it to look good? plant stuff that grows HERE. plus, it costs less to plant and WAY less to maintain.

Nick

Stick with architecture you obviously don’t know anything about trees. Dogwoods are not street trees. I am sure you trees in Norman were shaded quite well and weren’t surrounded by concrete.

Good discussion, but let’s not insult each other, ok? This crowd is above that sort of thing.

No disrespect intended but I had to laugh at the “trust the experts” line…like the landscape experts that did the Canal? When it opened (July 4th weekend), the landscaping was dead or dying. Found out a while later they planted items not native to Oklahoma. Fortunately, the contractor had to go back and replace at his cost and not the taxpayers.