Brian Walters was in a State and Local Finance Class at OU.

Plansit, I didn’t hear Cornett mention Walters… if he did and I missed it, I apologize.

So many questions which I guess will get answered in time. However, I see there is no canal extension on the list. Also the $130 mil. for streetcar appears to be more than the $100 mil. the MTP site says the streetcar would cost, so does that mean we get more than the number of stops proposed on the MTP site? I saw the answer Steve got on the fairgrounds improvements (blech), but I suppose I can’t get everything I want. Oh well, I’ll try to be patient and wait for some more answers to come out over time. Good to see we finally have something concrete to discuss though.

Well, I like the proposal overall. I think the fairgrounds item and senior centers should probably be funded through other means, but that won’t keep me from supporting this. I am glad the convention center estimate is not on the upper end of what they were talking about, but I do hope they build it so it can be expanded if necessary. I am also glad to see the canal extension was tabled (perhaps for MAPS4 or something).

I am really excited about the streetcar system. It is bigger (5-6 miles of track) than I expected. One thing I would like more information on is the contingent funding for a transit hub and commuter rail. I assume the resolution the city council passed earlier this week regarding commuter rail plays into this somehow. What is the plan here? Perhaps we will learn more at the MAPS3 transit press conference?

It seems as if the council is trying to appease the third of the people he mentioned that wanted a project put in their part of town and not just downtown projects. I live on one busy street and work on another and see the amount of people who use walking as their means of transit so I am pleasantly surprised to see the sidewalks added to the Maps 3 agenda.

Brian, the plan is that we may be able to obtain a matching federal grant. Might as well because federal grants are usually obtained by submitting a proposal and coming up with a funding match…we already have a funding match, obviously. The streetcar will happen no matter what but there is a chance that we could end up getting a grant to do commuter rail. The reason for $30 mil more than Bezdek was campaigning for is to do a multi-modal transit center downtown that combines commuter, streetcar, bus, and other modes of transit. Of course it would have been a little less had we preserved the Union Station Rail Yard but the important thing is that with that we are MOVING ON from that issue and jumpstarting an actual passenger rail system.

I also can appreciate that the proposal is ambiguous when it comes to the location of the convention center, whereas it’s pretty specific for a few of the other items, like the downtown park. Hopefully they’ll see the light and move the convention center..after all, I think Bricktown needs to be appeased now that there will be no canal extension (another victory for city planning).

I wasn’t hear for previous MAPS votes. Will we get to vote on each plank of the proposal individually or is it one vote for the whole ball of wax?

Other reactions:
* No canal extension? Seriously? This is a serious omission.
* Wouldn’t ubiquitous and modern, natural gas-fuled buses accomplish the same thing as street cars for much, much less?
* Senior aquatic centers? That’s a head scratcher to me.
* Love the sidewalks and biking trails item!
* OK River improvements – all for it.
* Fairground improvements? Aren’t we already paying for that through the hotel tax? This seems greedy.
* Central Park – dig it!
* New convention center – lukewarm.

All or nothing, Grant.

I think I see, Nick. So, if we got $130 million from the Feds, then we would have $260 million to spend on streetcar, commuter rail, and a transit hub? …If I am understanding correctly. So, if we got matching funds, how far could we expect that extra $130 million to take us?

It would probably be an equal match but I’m not personally an expert in getting grants from the feds. I haven’t bought Matt Lesko’s book or been on food stamps lately..LOL

I think the idea is “Count on $130 million, but hope for $260 million.” As it is $130 million is plenty enough for a meaningful transit component of MAPS3. $100 million for streetcar, and then $30 million to prep for commuter rail which will require a more complex funding source than a MAPS ballot. Federal grants would be the easiest, or if ACOG did something here to pool resources from OKC, Edmond, Moore, Norman, etc, that would also be in order.

Maybe if Jeff Bezdek sees this he could comment more on the commuter rail aspect of what’s going on here?

The money for the fairgrounds should have been come from their own funding. The Canal Extension made more sense.
Didn’t two former Mayors agree that a Canal Extension should be on Maps 3? I guess our current Mayor just knows more?

I’m not feeling the river upgrades. Is it really possible to make the OK river a first class rowing venue? I don’t know anything about rowing, but it seems a stretch. I mean, it’s not even a real river. And the fiasco with the triathlon (and the speedboat races a few years back) makes me skeptical about the river as a recreational venue.

The overall proposal just seems like a hodgepodge of stuff with at least one thing that every voter can support…I guess that is the strategy for getting it passed.

Nick, I’ll see whether Jeff can elaborate here at OKC Central.
James, have you been to the river recently, especially for one of the regattas?

“Is it really possible to make the OK river a first class rowing venue?”

Yes, it is. We already are. We have one of the best boathouses in the world. Also, we’re going to be official training site for the Olympics.

Great proposal overall.

I’ve spent the past 13 hours thinking about MAPS 3. And, while I like the overall package of what’s in MAPS 3, I do have concerns about what is NOT in MAPS 3. Please allow me to list them….

1. Canal Extensions – maybe this is going to be part of the Convention Center cost, but $280 million does not seem to be enough for that.

2. Transit Hub – Steve, we all talked about the Santa Fe Rail Station a while back, perhaps being the commuter rail hub. If the Cox Center might be demolished in a few years, the land could be used for the transit hub, adjoining Santa Fe. But the Santa Fe Station is not a MAPS 3 project.

3. Fairgrounds – The exibit center is a big one on the Fair Board’s wish list, yet the biggest Fairgrounds eyesore, the aging State Fair Speedway, is untouched by MAPS 3. Does the City want a private developer to build a track in the Metro Area?

4. COTPA – A streetcar system is a great boost for Metro Transit, so would be a transit hub. Yet, we have complained, here and elsewhere, that COTPA’s current route system does not address the immediate needs of our city. Can money come from other sources to change the route system?

5. Oklahoma County Jail – Although not a City issue, the County is struggling with a $400 million price tag to correct issues with the Jail. Also, the Juvenile facilities at Grand and Western are overcrowded and possibly neglected. Although not a MAPS issue, County Commissioners will have to submit a proposal to the voters to address the Jails. Voters could say, “I’m already paying for MAPS, and I don’t want to pay more!”

I realize these things might not have been popular in the MAPS 3 survey, but they are real issues to those concerned.

Do we need to begin planning a MAPS 4?

“Radar”,
Let’s concentrate on getting MAPS 3 passed before we start thinking about or planning MAPS 4. And MAPS 3, as presented to us yesterday, is worth our attention. It is a fantastic proposal that will build on downtown’s momentum and improve quality of life all over the city.

Grant,
Buses can move people like streetcars can, but they can’t spur economic development like a modern streetcar system can. Developers build shops and apartments around streetcar lines, but they don’t do this around bus lines. A streetcar system will draw a circle around downtown that announces to developers, “Build here.” Plus, if we build like they’ve planned it, it will be the country’s longest modern streetcar route, longer than Seattle’s or Portland’s is currently. That sends a big signal. So, with this streetcar we get three things: a people-mover, an economic spur, and a big signal to the world that we’ve arrived.

Radar–

The jail thing is (expletive deleted). The county screwups got themselves in that situation, so they need to think harder if they expect to get us for $400 million on their corruption and incompetence. I say just let that grow into a huge scandal..the county will be better for it.

The transit hub is planned in MAPS3. This week City Council asked ACOG to look into the best location for a transit hub and they’ll probably either come up with Santa Fe Station or across the boulevard from it, next to the new convention center.

COTPA can change their routes and be revenue neutral. Bezdek’s group made a proposal to the City Council that they consider changing their routes from meandering all over the city map to sticking to a grid system.

James Evans: you need to see this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJ8OafR65Fk&feature=related

The developments of the original MAPS were what helped convince me to stay in Oklahoma and Oklahoma City after college as opposed to moving to another large city. I like the proposal, though I was a little disappointed that the transit recommendation included only street cars to serve the downtown core and not more light rail to serve commuters from the suburbs. However, I suppose we must start somewhere and perhaps the opportunity to expand later is there. While those of us in the burbs (I live in Midwest City) don’t have a vote on this, we will contribute a large portion of the sales tax dollars that will support this initiative. If the voters of OKC will only approve it, those of us living around OKC will help pay for it and, I think, gladly. I know I will.

Damon, since you live in MWC, you’re more likely to get commuter rail soon than anyone else. There is already a lot of progress being made on getting commuter rail between downtown and Tinker, mainly because it will only cost a little over $15 million to do..as opposed to $100s of millions to do Edmond-Norman.

Again, why would OKC residents support a sales tax for a regional system? It would be basically impossible to get OKC residents to pay for someone in Norman or Edmond to get downtown. It doesn’t work like that in any other city anywhere in the country. Any transit between OKC and its suburbs would require a Regional Transit Authority, one that could tax itself, operate the system, and include all participating municipalities. This exact idea is currently being discussed through the Regional Transit Dialogue. Regional transit service is a top priority of many Central Oklahoma leaders, but it’s going to take a regional approach to make it happen, not just OKC.

BTW, The Maps 3 proposal looks awesome. The only nitpick I would have is the Fairgrounds element, but I can as with the other items, OKC officials felt it necessary to throw a bone to many different voting interest groups. I think the results of such a tactic will prove worth while if/when this passes on Dec. 8th.

-Ryan

Not enough trees. You need many more trees for shade in Summer heat for outdoor activities. Wish you could build a large monolithic, artificial stone structure with multi use caves and caverns, waterfalls, water pools inside and waterfalls, plants and vines on outside.

Steve L., RE: “Will we get to vote on each plank of the proposal individually or is it one vote for the whole ball of wax”

Do you have a link for an official position from the City on this?

While previous MAPS votes were indeed “all or nothing”, there seems to be conflicting info on it this time around. Think I remember seeing an article that said “log-rolling” of non-related items wasn’t allowed anymore and the City “would follow current law” on it. Then in the Mayor’s press conference he seemed to imply that we would be voting on the MAPS 3 items separately as “each item has to stand on it’s own”. Know the most recent Tinker and General Obligation bond issues were listed individually (and believe that was the case with the School Bond issue too).

Chad Reynolds, I think you need to educate yourself on the fact that it will not “be the country’s longest modern streetcar route”. The statement Mick made about “it being the most significant streetcar system in the U.S., although other cities may be expanding in the future” is also propaganda that is not fact or the truth. I think that will be path Mick and the city will follow once again in how they present the facts or truth about Maps 3. New Orleans has 3 streetcar lines, the St. Charles line at 13.2 miles, the Canal St. Line with 5.5 miles and the Riverfront Line at 2 miles.

Larry, you are right about the court ruling on log rolling. That is why the mayor’s office is pursuing a “public improvements tax” that will have no line items – jut a council resolution stating their intent on how to spend it (the resolution, as I understand, would not be on the ballot)

Hmmmm… Guess I’m not seeing what the difference is in what the Mayor’s office is doing with MAPS 3…couldn’t they have used a generic title/tactic like that for the General Obligation Bond and School Bound or the Tinker Bond issue for that matter. Is it because those were bond issues and not sales taxes? Those were listed and voted on separately.

Not trying to argue it, just trying to understand it.

Rick, what the Mayor was saying is that this will be the longest Modern Streetcar line completed at one time. Right now there are only three such lines in the United States. It may be that further expansions of those other lines in the other cities may eclipse our initial start. However, it will be the most impressive initial investment of a modern electric streetcar system in recent history.

The lines you speak of are all “historic” and/or historic replica trolley lines. So you are correct, but it is that this will be the longest Modern System done at one time. Big difference.

Jeff, the 5.5 mile Canal St. Line with the 1 mile spur to the N.O. Museum of Art is hardly “historic” being the line and the 23 air-conditioned ADA compliant cars were built as one project in 2004. The 35 street cars on the 13 mile St. Charles Line are the historic Perley Thomas Cars DE 900 Series built in the 1920′s. The St. Charles Line began electric service in 1893 after 20 years of horsecar operation making the St. Charles Line the world’s oldest continuously operated electric railway line. A June 7th 2009 article also states that N.O. transit officials are submitting by Sept. 15th 2009 an application for three new lines of 8 miles for a French Quarter Loop Line, Convention Center Line, Amtrak Union Passenger Terminal Line all to be connected to the Canal St. Line and Riverfront Line. The mayor is not presenting the facts as they are, he has done this in the past when it comes to comparing what is to be offered by voting for this tax and facts . Are the street cars here in OKC not also going to be replica trolley lines and cars? Is 2004 not “Modern, recent history”? “Big difference”? No, not at all. Fact, yes.

Rick, I think that you are attempting to “re-frame” the statement by the Mayor. No offense.

Air-conditioning and ADA compliance does not necessarily mean that it is a “Modern” Streetcar.

I looked at New Orleans very carefully. They are using vintage, refurbished, and/or replica cars from what I can tell. If they plopped something new from Europe on the lines then I am obviously mistaken and mis-informing the mayor. I have not found evidence as of yet that we “you/I” are talking about the same thing.

Modern Streetcars are usually European with no historical characteristics. The first American “modern” is rolling out in Portland this fall. It seems that the the word “Modern” is defined by the appearance of the tram and that is “curb height”.

I appreciate the size of the New Orleans System and had a great conversation with Mayor Ray Nagin about it last year at the DNC.

What Mayor Cornett said should be accurate with regard to what the MTP is proposing. There are many operating streetcar system in the United States, but we very well may have the largest system utilizing “Modern” streetcars at one time.

We may be eclipsed by Portland during our process, but the proposal is significant and one to be proud of.

I think the Mayor is trying to convey that message, we should be proud of this proposal.

If I find evidence that we are “mis-characterizing” something than I will gladly clear the air with corrected information.

Jeff – I am curious on this point, because I find it confusing as well. Is the Portland streetcar system, part of which operates on a 8.0 mile loop, not considered modern? I have always been under the impression that Portland streetcars were the definition of a modern streetcar system. Plus, according to this website the system uses cars manufactured by Skoda-Inekon in Plzen of the Czech Republic.

Either way, I think it is great Oklahoma City is joining the ranks of cities throughout the world with modern streetcar system. That is reason enough to be for it!

Portland is the best model and first Modern Streetcar in the United States. It set the benchmark that everything is compared to.

The system is actually 4 mile long currently with planned expansions. People often hear that it is 8 miles of track, which is technically true, but that is counting “double tracking” (tracks on both sides of the street). So it actually only covers 4 miles of distance.

They are talking about a three mile extension. Which would eclipse us if it is funded and completed before our project is.

Oregon Iron Works (a local company) has decided to get into the streetcar business.

http://www.unitedstreetcar.com/

They are partnering with Skoda to start producing American made streetcars. This move is a great one as it will help with attracting federal funding and creating manufacturing jobs in the United States.

While I cannot proactively endorse one streetcar company over another, I think that given the opportunity of creating jobs in the US and having an American manufacturer accountable for maintaining our proposed system, this company is worth keeping an eye on. Especially if it helps our chances on enticing federal matching funds.

So,yes Blair, Portland is really the base model of which all proposed systems are compared. The new American manufacturing facility element is another reason.

Yes Jeff, I think what the mayor is calling a “streetcar system” and what you say the “Modern Streetcars that are usually European” is actually called a Tram or Tramway system in Europe. Either way a Modern Streetcar or Tram/Tramway is a vehicle that travels on rails by electric, typically in a street. The 24 cars on the Canal St. Line and the 7 cars on the Riverfront Line were manufactured in 1997 and 2002-2003 by The New Orleans Regional Transit Authority in New Orleans. Unlike the 35 vintage (1923-1924) cars on the St. Charles Line, the Canal St. and Riverfront cars are modern streetcars that are air-conditioned and ADA compliant but built to look like the Heritage style streetcar. I am not sure what your definition of “Modern” is? Are you talking about the “looks” of the Tramcar/Streetcar, Heritage vs. typical Euro style.

Yes Rick, the “look” has a great deal to do with it. But accesbility in a modern streetcar is “curb height”. There is no ADA elevation platform and the streetcar looks similar to a “light rail” train.

The fact they areHerutage replicas immediately takes them out of the “moder” category.

If that is the case, then my original statement and post holds up to be true. This type of misinformation is the calling card of the mayor and city when it has come to the past MAPS tax and the Big League City tax.

RE: Modern Streetcar discussion

I was thinking the same thing, that perhaps it was the difference between “Modern” and the old-style trolley look. However when I went back and played the clip of the Mayor’s speech where he made the statement, he didn’t use the word “modern” (may have been an accidental omission, but it wasn’t there).

John R. “Radar” Doyle: 3. “Fairgrounds – The exibit center is a big one on the Fair Board’s wish list, yet the biggest Fairgrounds eyesore, the aging State Fair Speedway, is untouched by MAPS 3. Does the City want a private developer to build a track in the Metro Area?”

RESPONSES:

1. State Fair Speedway (SFS) is hardly an “eyesore.” It is a historic and valuable amenity that would cost $60 to $100 milion to replace.

2. One of the problems with MAPS 3 is the “coyness” of Fair Board officials about SFS. It’s not shown on the artwork promoting the fair park revisions. Thus, the “master plan” for Fair Park is unreasonably vague. SFS may be gravely endangered by MAPS 3 and the officials in charge apparently lack the candor to be truthful about it.

3. It is unrealistic to presume that any private entity can or would build a motorsports facility as good or better than SFS. Any replacement would likely be an inconveniently-located, cheaply-built “erector-set” facility.

4. Considering that SFS is “paid for,” it’s wholly unreasonable to penalize Central Oklahoma’s racing fans and racers with the cost of a new facility (the money would have to come from somewhere, and the costs of a new facility would be passed along).