I have always wondered why they couldn’t sell wine in grocery stores. I usually ponder this question as I’m walking through the store past row after row of beer.

Just one more thing to give to the big box retailers and take from local liquor store owners (Oklahomans). IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN until the law allows liquor store owners to own more than one store (i.e., a chain of stores). Why would you allow an out-of-state chain like WalMart or Whole Foods to sell wine, liquor, high% beer but then only allow the Oklahoman to own one store? The WalMarts have already destroyed locally owned grocery stores. They will do the same thing to Oklahoman-owned liquor and wine stores. Not to mention the fact that you can say bye-bye to choice as the Big Box guys will only sell Yellow Tail, Gallo, 2-Buck, etc. There are many issues in this debate beyond the poor pitiful me wine consumer. Constitutional issues abound to be certain. It would be convenient to see wine in grocery stores but the fact is that it is a bad idea economically as well as legally. If it does happen, the legislature will have to grant current owners the right to Coop and own unlimited licenses.

I don’t think OKC could support a whole foods or a central market. These stores are quite expensive and require a lot of traffic. I’m not sure OKC has the population/demographics to support it. In fact, Edmond would probably be a better location for a Whole Foods than downtown OKC.

In fact, I’m guessing that if downtown could support a grocery store then there would be one down there already. The population density just isn’t there at this time.

The southern baptist fight hard behind the scenes to keep their agenda in place. Don’t believe me, do a little research in the local news stories about how certain state politicians were voting against the lottery but did not mind flying out to las vegas for some fun at the casino’s. Strange I tell ya…

Matt: I once lived in an imaginary land (Kansas City) where both liquor stores and big box retailers that sell liquor co-existed. Some of the wine selections were in places like Target and the local grocery store: Price Chopper. There was no lack of liquor stores that were always busy, carried a lot of the same items, but also provided a more personal service than Target or the grocery store.

Maybe Kansas City really is imaginary. But I have seen this scenario elsewhere as well.

Wine at Homeland and Walmart does not bring about the end of the local liquor store.

I meant to say: “Some of the BEST wine selections were in places like Target…”

And one cannot overlook the wonder that is Sam’s Club’s liquor and wine department.

I’m probably not a true Oklahoman because I don’t mind the idea more competition for Byron’s, The Cellar and Pancho.

So then provide Byron, Pancho and Cellar with multiple licenses and let them compete. Then you have the BIG issue – the Oklahoma Constitution must be changed to allow that to happen. See section XXVIII-10. Change the Oklahoma Constitution and thereby dilute it all in the name of convenience? The system was put in place by our predecessors. Respect it. Even if it forces your lazy ass to go to another store to by wine.

All I did is say that competition would be good. Now I’m a lazy ass. Your leap in logic is astounding.

I’m also curious as to why there are two… strike that, three Cellar locations? North May, Rockwell and Norman. Seems eerily similar to a chain to me.

Aaron (AKA, Mr. Sensitive): I did not call you a lazy ass. Just the average Oklahoman. Including myself. We seem to complain about everything in the name of convenience: parking, traffic, wine in grocery stores, etc. As for the Cellar Locations, they must have them under separate names or some sort of name licensing agreement. I don’t know how they pulled that one off.

Steve, this is fun.

Matt, after a little research on the county assessor’s website, as well as the secretary of state’s, I know no more than I did before I looked about The Cellar.

If what Matt says is true about the Oklahoma Constitution, could somebody explain why there are three locations of The Cellar.

Aaron, did you pull up the license? I don’t even know how that is done. Most likely you have to go straight to ABLE. The building itself can be owned by one entity. Its the licensing that is at issue. I dont think the tax assessor website means anything.

Example: Aaron’s Fermented Grape Juice starts in OKC. Two years later Aaron’s cousin approaches him and asks if she can open a store in Tulsa and operate under that name, with license under her name. 6 months after that, Aaron’s cousin’s friend Bob wants to do the same in Ardmore. That is most likely how it happens. License under one name and completely separate owners and operations. However, the appearance of a chain by sharing of the name to develop consumer loyalty. They don’t share in profits or control. They just benefit from the name. Just a guess. Would be completely legal.

Different, less confrontational Matt here…Can somebody show me the petition to sign to get this stupid law revoked or to at least bring it to the attention of the lawmakers? I want liquor and beer in the same place. I want the beer to be cold too.

If a liquor store owner wants a chain, I say put that on the ballot too. That law seems very un-capitalistic…

I am for any change in the law that allows grocery stores to cell wine. I am also for a change in the law that allows people to own a chain of liquor stores.

Keep in mind that this state was founded when prohibition and anti-capitalistic laws were popular. Not only are some of these laws just laws– they are in our constitution which makes them even harder to change. But there is no excuse for it now– the vast majority of Oklahomans support these changes.

There was a petition to get the admittedly stupid law revoked. There were links to the petition on OKCTalk, and many of us urged everyone we knew to e-mail the link to everyone they knew to get the petition signed. That generated about 5,000 signatures, IIRC, which was a shockingly low number. Apparently it costs many thousands of dollars to hire people to get enough signatures on a petition to create legal action, but there were never requests for volunteers or attempts to put petitions at places frequented by large numbers of people. Odd.

I do suspect there is significant lobbying taking place by our local liquor store owners to keep this from happening, but regardless, Whole Foods exists in other places that do not allow liquor store sales in grocery stores, as I’ve seen and shopped in them.

I do hope that all the people who are clamoring for a Whole Foods plan on supporting it, regardless of where it is located. Everybody seems to want this kind of thing, but then perhaps we’ll be hearing that it’s more expensive than regular grocery stores, too far to drive, etc. Personally, I’ll settle for a Quickie Mart downtown (well, perhaps something a wee bit bigger), but if there is a Whole Foods, I’ll do my part as a person hoping for a trendier OKC and do all my shopping there.

I am still curious why Okc can’t support a Wholefoods when the one in tulsa seems to be doing good? As far as wine and high point beer the laws don’t seem to make sense to me. Growing up in New Mexico we had liquor sections in the grocery stores and package stores around town and both seemed to do to well enough… I guess i just want a cold FatTire every now and then.

chris

Earlier this year, we discussed the idea of a Braum’s (or a better one than 17th & Classen) opening downtown. It’s not a Whole Foods, but it might be a start. There are other upscale grocers in the area, like Crescent Market, whom could sieze the opportunity if the numbers work out, and have the patience to allow the new residential developments to become occupied.

As for the wine/liquor issue, it will take a signed bill, or an initiative petition to bring this to a vote of the people. And, the campaigns both for and against the issue will be brutal. I can see MADD, the religious lobby, and the liquor stores ready to fight this. They will label supporters as “BIG” as in big tobacco, big pharma, big oil, etc..

If Whole Foods is listening, perhaps they will build a non-alcohol store anyway.

Being a naturalized Okie I’m ignorant of the issue’s history. What is the genesis of the no-wine-in-grocery-stores law? What is the intent? Is the intent still rational?

Regarding change, I contacted Congressman Al McAffrey to inquire about the process. Here’s his response:
“…I have carried a Bill every year without a hearing in Committee. I will carry a bill this next Session (February 2010) structured after the Colorado law. To insure we have a chance to vote on changing the law, looks like a Petition Drive will be necessary.
Rep. McAffrey”

According to the Secretary of State’s website: A referendum requires 73,134 signatures; an initiative requires 117,013; an initiative for Constitutional Change requires 219,400. …A daunting task in light of the 5,000 signatures mentioned above.

It’s sad that irrational laws are retained just because it’s a pain in the neck to change them. I’d definitely sign a petition, but don’t have the time or dedication to initiate one…

I wish Oklahomans were as passionate about education and healthcare as they were about wine in liquor stores.

Go, Steve! I lived in Richmond, VA for 10 years and they had a Whole Foods and a Trader Joes. If THEY can get and support one, then OKC SURELY ought to be able to. We just have to change to law to allow wine sales at grocery stores. Seems common sense to me.

I think Steve has mentioned that Whole Foods is in Tulsa. I do believe that Tulsa is a part of this state, so therefore, they have the same liquor laws. What gives?

You are right about the lobbying, but I don’t understand why that would happen…but lobby groups don’t always make sense. If I bought a bottle of liquor from either place, in any situation, the liquor doesn’t become stronger because it is in a whole foods. Nor do I want to drink and drive more because it is Whole Foods. Surely they won’t try to make that argument.

Heck, one does not even have to get one’s tongue all bent out of shape by saying, if possible, the words “Sally Kern” to answer the question, “Why don’t we sell wine in liquor stores.” Religious conservatism doesn’t have to reach that low. As another poster said, many good conservative Christians participated in campaigns not to open up places like Remington Park but didn’t hesitate to trek off to Las Vegas. I don’t know many rich folk. Most of my Southern Baptist friends (and I don’t mean that facetiously) who put up “Vote No” signs in their yards merely got in their cars and drove to Ft. Smith … a lot closer and cheaper than Las Vegas!

But, when all is said and done, Oklahoman’s do have a responsibility to put their foot down at some line in the sand … A few race tracks and a heck of a lot of casinos are as far as we are likely to see this state go. At least for now. Too bad.

One only has to drive south (probably any other direction … I don’t get around much) and go to one of the great HEB groceries in Texas and buy some wine. Personally, I care less about Whole Foods (seems like an ego trip to me) than I do general groceries (like HEB) with a lot more choices. But, that’s just me.

Looks like you caught a lot of fish with this one, my friend Steve!

Lots of Matts here.

The wine we have available in our locally owned liquor stores is infinitely better in terms of quality than anything I have seen at the BigBoxers in Texas. Sure, we have the crap stuff too but the liquor stores are unmatched when it comes to what they can offer. See Cellar, Broadway Wine Merchants, Park Hill, Cache Road W&L, etc. Why all the fuss? Should we really be wasting our time on this? More importantly, in these trying times, is this really the best way to occupy our already preoccupied legislators?

Many WFs and CMs are operating in states with laws similar or even worse than our own. Its not a question of wine when it comes to these stores, it is money.

While I support the concept of selling wine in markets/grocery stores, the ban of such isn’t the reason OKC doesn’t have high profile stores, ie: Whole Foods or HEB. Those chains, as has been mentioned, are in other markets with the same prohibition.

The reason, I think, such chains aren’t in this market is more a case of old fashioned business and numbers. A given market has only so much available footage for a use like grocery stores. And in OKC, WalMart seemingly has that market cornered, with all the Super Centers, Neighborhood Markets and Sam’s Clubs. (BTW…wine is sold in all of these stores in markets where the laws allow it). They drive the price of groceries here. Then, add in the other stores (Homeland, Crest) and there isn’t a lot of room left.

Whole Foods offers a different product than the basic grocery store, and I believe there is room here for them. In fact, I think the area could support 3 stores (OKC-Western Avenue location; far south OKC/Moore/north Norman; and Edmond. Sorry, not downtown).

Not selling wine in the stores isn’t the reason they’re not here, but — it doesn’t help.

It’s funny how people want to blame the wine laws on Whole Foods not locating in OKC when they operate in other markets that don’t allow wine sales in grocery stores. Are the liquor laws in such liberal havens as Boston and NYC backwards?

Walmart dominating the grocery business in Oklahoma with over 60% market share, is more probably the reason.

If WF were to come to OKC, it most certainly would not be located downtown. The demographics simply don’t justify it.
The city offered Homeland a Bass Pro type deal to put a store in downtown and Homeland turned them down…

I agree, Phillip. At this point in time, downtown needs a mom and pop type grocery store or a small gourmet grocery store. Most of the people living downtown are young adults, with a few empty nesters thrown in. Young adults frequently don’t do a lot of cooking, and don’t need massive amounts of staples. Empty nesters may cook more but again, they need nothing in large quantities. If we ever have 10,000 to 30,000 people living downtown, we won’t have to offer Homeland a deal. They’ll be more than happy to put in a store.

And we’ve got a convenient store on Broadway, if we want to purchase wine.

You know what’s more of a mystery than our refusal to change some of these early statehood laws? All these free-market believers who decry WalMart’s dominance. IF the local stores offered a superior product (via service, price, and/or selection), they would dominate. Instead Walmart is the one who has opened innovative, clean grocery stores where there was opportunity. It is what it is. But I would agree with removing any restriction for growth that *may* exist currently for the local boys. I’m more of the mind that WF hasn’t located in OKC for other unknown reasons. Doug is right though, HEB is a far better store!

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How many children go to bed hnrugy in Edmond every night. There was a piece on TV this evening about children and poverty. Sometimes it hits close to home, especially with the recession. Some schools are filling kids backpacks with snacks for the weekend, because they know they will go without otherwise. Has our church ever thought about a volunteer project we could do like that? Fill backpacks for kids for the weekends, right in our own neighborhood? I wonder if we could work with a school and find out what kids need that kind of help. Just an idea.