I think this is a very wise voice. He shall be known as the wise sage of the PHF campus. I think that everyone that supports rail transit, which evidently is a LOT of people, needs to get up on their rooftops and start shouting. Spread the word. Jeff Bezdek’s MTP thing is probably the best way to get involved and show that we really are serious about rail here.

Mr. Stafford is quite correct. My new acquaintance Mr. Roberts is correct. Downtown, as a whole and as its individual districts, must be inter-connected, and accessible from the suburbs by public transportation. There are 12,500 workers, and another 12,500 daily visitors to the OUHSC area whom need regular, reliable, and frequent shuttles to the restautants and services in Bricktown, CBD, Auto Alley, and Midtown. And, wouldn’t it be nice to have a public transit connection to the OU campus in Norman, UCO in Edmond, the luxury homes in far South OKC, Piedmont?

It doesn’t matter to me right now what ‘mode’ this takes; it just has to happen.

MAPS-3 gets us to OKC 2020, just like MAPS-1 got us to 2003. Sadly, we have only heard about C2S, and a Convention Center, but nothing COTPA-related. We need to know from our leaders what’s going on with public transit.

AMEN!

I’m just going to pretend you didn’t write that last sentence. As for the rest of your comment, you apparently don’t have a city in OKC politics if you’re too busy drinking the kool-aid from Sean Hannity and other FOX news stars. I’m not going to debate you on the merits of expanding drilling here in the US, in fact it’s probably not a bad idea. But we can’t be serious if we think that clinging to our reliance on oil is a long-range solution. The reality is that it isn’t sustainable.

The reason we as a city are moving forward is because we have gotten beyond the contentious Republican v. Democrat stuff that plagues everything else. If we were caught up in that we would have never even passed MAPS 1, if Republicans had come out opposing it because it spent money, and if Democrats had come out opposing everything on a “MAPS for billionaires” pretense. It’s true that MAPS does little for the poor in OKC and it’s true that MAPS is an expensive public program, BUT you can’t deny that it’s the best investment we’ve ever made in OKC. The program has grown our economy, transformed OKC into a place people actually want to live in, and launched OKC’s ascent to “Big League City” status.

Today we’re moving forward with the 3rd installment of MAPS and we can’t sit here arguing talking points from Sean Hannity or the Daily KOS. We have to find a consensus on what it will actually take to keep growing OKC. We can’t do that if ignoramuses like Jake cling to their political fire breathing.

For the record, as a registered Republican I voted (absentee) for McCain-Palin, but I think what Jake said about Obama and OKC Central was disgusting to the n’th degree. I strongly dislike anything to do with government except for MAPS. The City of OKC has proven time after time that, no matter how badly the federal govt keeps screwing up, at the local govt it is still possible for govt to work for the people.

**Glaring typo**

I said “you apparently don’t have a city in OKC politics”

I meant “you apparently don’t have a say in OKC politics”

Jake, you’re cracking me up. Two months ago Jeff Bezdek and his group were convinced I was against the streetcar project and were criticizing me for what they perceived to be an attempt to kill their proposal.
I’m annoying both sides: now I’m happy!

I just moved downtown from Austin, TX. While I agree a rail system progresses a city, it is a long process and takes ALOT of money. Austin just started a rail system after being delayed about a year for lack of funds. Also, after 6 pm, downtown OKC is like a ghost town. I think the focus should be on building downtown up before you link the city to the suburbs. This city has huge potential, but I just think money could be spent on other things.

Are there reasonable estimates of what a reasonably complete light rail system would cost in the greater metro area? If so, I’d like to include that info in the question in the \Discussion\ area of http://dougdawg.blogspot.com/2009/08/core-to-shore-resources.html . I haven’t tried looking it up yet, though I did find this study at http://www.acogok.org/Programs_and_Services/Transportation_and_Data_Services/fixedguideway.asp … which I’ve not fully perused.

The Austin light rail business plan states 1.6 billion for the 42 miles of total rail distance. I believe they have about 90 million into the project so far. I’m sure the numbers would be similar.

Whoa, Steven, $1.6B for only 42 miles? ODOT’s mileage program … http://www.okladot.state.ok.us/hqdiv/p-r-div/howfar/okmile.htm … shows Edmond to Norman = 32 miles, Yukon to Midwest City 23 miles … might be shorter by rail, I don’t know, but that alone is 55 miles and contains nothing for Okc to Mustang (17) or to the airport which might be along the Mustang route.

Steven, do the Austin numbers include condemnation or property purchase costs, if you know?

Doug: Yes the Austin numbers include that, but I just wanted to jump in and say whoa whoa whoa on the light rail. Light rail costs on average $65 million per new mile. Downtown streetcar costs on average $20 million per new mile. These two things are apples and oranges. Light rail emphasizes speed and distances, whereas streetcar emphasizes intimate settings and accessibility. We need accessibility in a rail system right now, not speed and distance. We need streetcar now as a starter rail system that we can talk about expanding on ten years from now.

Also I seriously doubt it will cost OKC what it is costing Austin, this is because we already have a lot of the existing rail infrastructure in place. We are getting a commuter rail line (it will be on heavy rail, not light rail, but still the same function) between downtown and Tinker right now, as I speak. From Norman to Edmond is already a straight-line rail link that BNSF has indicated we may be able to use for commuter rail purposes. We already use that line for daily rail service from Downtown OKC to Downtown Fort Worth, the Heartland Flyer. We would just be talking about doing a commuter version of that to Edmond and Moore/Norman, if you will, a “Metro Flyer” sort of thing.

Nick, use the existing BNSF north/south tracks? Well … not unless they double track else someone has to pull over on a siding while another train passes by or they crash head-on. Not what I have in mind. But the downtown OKC tracks to MWC which aren’t being used might be a help. I’m a little familiar with the group that is trying to set up the downtown to MWC deal, but I’m not aware that it has been taken seriously by anyone. You know something different?

I guess people have been glossing over what I’ve been saying for years now.

A rail system is a multi-billion dollar project.

Why is this all of the sudden a shock to people?

we abandoned a privately owned inter-urban system and now expect one to magically appear on the cheap?

by all means, take the political garbage out of the discussion. maps didn’t come for free, and neither will the rebuilding of oklahoma city as a world class city, which it HAS BEEN. i believe it will be one again, and soon.

this partisan garbage is absolutely amazing. does jake think that anton classen, doc nichols, and i.m. putnam were head-in-the-sky philosophers? THEY WERE CAPITALISTS. they made money with the oklahoma city railway (with NO SUBSIDY, in a very different economic climate), and developed a metropolitan area. they did so in cooperation with the public sector, i might add. i’m quite certain that the private sector would be delighted to profit once again from the re-development of the city, so long as public policy allows them to make a decent profit.

for what it’s worth, i think that a metro streetcar system combined with heavy rail upgrades just might work. everyone gets what they want, and the public benefits. the problem with light rail is that in addition to the expense, you don’t get the profitable freight traffic.

Posters- the proposed streetcar rail system in MAPS 3 is $120 million. That is the smallest of the three core projects promoted by the mayor. Incidentaly, he will be speaking on behalf of the streetcar project at our first fundraiser, Sept 17th 5:00 pm – 7:00 pm at the Skirvin.

To implement the metro-wide commuter system is $850 million in 2009 dollars. It is a ten year long range plan.

Finally, Austin cannot be compared to OKC with regards to rail and financing. Our system starts with the streetcar, paid for entirely with local funds to acclimate our citizens to rail service and serve the core area and connect/interface the metro-wide system.

The investment of the $120 million will enable us to pursue federal funding for a expanded system.

David, Shartel & Classen didn’t make money off of the trolley system … they either lost money or went into the hole on it … they DID make buckets of money selling tracts of land that they somehow managed to lay tracks through/to. I’m not complaining about that, but it would be a mistake to think that the trolley system was profitable, in and of itself.

Nick, I agree that using and widening the BNSF corridor makes sense for longer-distance commuter rail at a lesser-expensive overhead. I wonder if that is planned for the I-44/Broadway Extension rework, specifically the railroad bridges over both highways. But the BNSF line must connect to a light rail system downtown, and hopefully include a rubber-tire trolley or bus system at the same point.

Logically, I believe all modes of transport should inter-connect, to allow a smooth commute between any two points in the Metro Area. BNSF’s infrastructure is a good starting point.

And to Mr. Bezdek, I am not always in the loop, but what is this $120-million streetcar system you speak of? Is it similar to what you had on MTDOKC.org?

MTPOKC is the streetcar system. The reason we can’t just say “well we need a rubber-tire trolley and a bus system downtown” is because we already have both of those. The Oklahoma Spirit Trolleys were just a joke. They used to have route info posted downtown, but now they don’t even have that. Nobody rides them, they’re very unreliable, and they don’t provide any kind of real transport. As for the buses, they are slightly more reliable, but they aren’t as environmentally friendly as streetcar, they require more operating expense, they don’t attract nearly as many riders, and they don’t spur development. City buses have a tendency to go by ignored, especially in downtowns of cities like OKC.

Steven: Coming from Austin, which I hear is a great city, what would you recommend OKC spending funds on first to build up the downtown?

While, in general, I agree that public transit is great and would be awesome if more was done here, I can’t help but think that it’s not going to be something that *most* people use. I mean sure, who is against it, right? It’s a great CONCEPTUAL idea, but the realities of pulling it off (costs, political turf, etc) are in all likelihood going to derail most public transit proposals. My fear is that including it, especially when the MTA has such questionable reputation, in the next go ’round of MAPS could very possibly be a deal-killer for enough folks. After reading and following this blog, among others and other sources of info, I’m becoming convinced that the push more a new type of public transit isn’t so much about advancing OKC as it is a prideful endeavor for a few select folks. How many use the existing public transit? Do we really believe that until we reach some critical mass, that we’ll be able to offer quicker, more expanded service? I’m not against it in principle, it just appears to be unrealistic. Fire away. But, please, let me know which route you rode into work on today first.

Here’s the deal on using mass transit: Which comes first, the chicken or the egg? I would love to take the bus downtown to work, but it doesn’t leave often enough and connect smoothly enough for me to use it. Then, if I have to ensure I leave work soon enough to catch the last train for Clarksville, so to speak. So, I’m not a user. My argument is that when gas prices hit $5 a gallon and stay there in the not-too-distant future, there needs to be an alternative to driving. We don’t have that in this city.

Ok, I ride to work every day on Route 24, and I don’t think it’s crazy to say people will take whatever transit is most convenient and affordable. Mass transit in OKC has a bad reputation because we’ve never made the investment to make it work. And this has real costs in lost development, traffic congestion, air pollution, and people moving to other states with viable transit. Supporters of transit do so for those reasons. Most of us have no monetary or other stake in it besides wanting Oklahoma to be a better place to live.

The real “prideful endeavor for a few select folks” in MAPS is the Convention Center, the motivation for which comes from a few business leaders who would directly profit. That’s not necessarily bad; business is an important stakeholder in the community too, and that wealth does spread around to some extent. But it would be a farce to propose what is in effect a giant subsidy for a few while leaving out transit improvements that would help the entire community.