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	<title>Comments on: Say What?</title>
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	<link>http://blog.newsok.com/okccentral/2009/07/01/say-what/</link>
	<description>The Oklahoman&#039;s Steve Lackmeyer covers downtown OKC brick by brick.</description>
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		<title>By: Steve Lackmeyer</title>
		<link>http://blog.newsok.com/okccentral/2009/07/01/say-what/comment-page-1/#comment-3367</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Lackmeyer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Jul 2009 22:54:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.newsok.com/okccentral/2009/07/01/say-what/#comment-3367</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve learned more about this whole situation... seems like everyone has been a bit juvenile on this matter at one point or another. I&#039;ll blog in a bit.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve learned more about this whole situation&#8230; seems like everyone has been a bit juvenile on this matter at one point or another. I&#8217;ll blog in a bit.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff M. Bezdek</title>
		<link>http://blog.newsok.com/okccentral/2009/07/01/say-what/comment-page-1/#comment-3366</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff M. Bezdek</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Jul 2009 22:48:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.newsok.com/okccentral/2009/07/01/say-what/#comment-3366</guid>
		<description>Rockets are STREET Bikes.  Totally designed for urban play.  Steve, this is the exact disconnect I was talking about.  Nobody cared- then somebody cared and said &quot;get out of here&quot;.  So we did.  No offense to anybody, but I have travelled.  Major cities don&#039;t cater to bikers, they just leave them alone.  Quite frankly, the sterile Gucci &quot;utopia&quot; is a downtown I would rather not live in.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rockets are STREET Bikes.  Totally designed for urban play.  Steve, this is the exact disconnect I was talking about.  Nobody cared- then somebody cared and said &#8220;get out of here&#8221;.  So we did.  No offense to anybody, but I have travelled.  Major cities don&#8217;t cater to bikers, they just leave them alone.  Quite frankly, the sterile Gucci &#8220;utopia&#8221; is a downtown I would rather not live in.</p>
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		<title>By: Steven</title>
		<link>http://blog.newsok.com/okccentral/2009/07/01/say-what/comment-page-1/#comment-3365</link>
		<dc:creator>Steven</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Jul 2009 21:51:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.newsok.com/okccentral/2009/07/01/say-what/#comment-3365</guid>
		<description>Yeah, I agree with James. This is a non-issue topic really. Bricktown &amp; Downtown need to be more motorcycle friendly? There is plenty of places to park as you determined in your video the other day, no reason motorcyclists can&#039;t walk a block or two either. Motorcycling isn&#039;t an &quot;urban hobby or lifestyle.&quot;  Get real, if anything we need to focus more on mass transit friendly development. As others have said it&#039;s free enterprise, and if such a need really was there, a private business owner would make biker only or biker friendly parking happen. How many URBAN areas do you see truly cater to the &quot;motorcycle crowd&quot;. None that I know of, especially on a regular basis. Notice how all the biker hangouts are spread out in this city and throughout other cities? Most bikers like to hang out at a biker bar, and then get out on the open road, not go to hip urban districts and shop at a Gucci store and then wait on the trolley.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, I agree with James. This is a non-issue topic really. Bricktown &amp; Downtown need to be more motorcycle friendly? There is plenty of places to park as you determined in your video the other day, no reason motorcyclists can&#8217;t walk a block or two either. Motorcycling isn&#8217;t an &#8220;urban hobby or lifestyle.&#8221;  Get real, if anything we need to focus more on mass transit friendly development. As others have said it&#8217;s free enterprise, and if such a need really was there, a private business owner would make biker only or biker friendly parking happen. How many URBAN areas do you see truly cater to the &#8220;motorcycle crowd&#8221;. None that I know of, especially on a regular basis. Notice how all the biker hangouts are spread out in this city and throughout other cities? Most bikers like to hang out at a biker bar, and then get out on the open road, not go to hip urban districts and shop at a Gucci store and then wait on the trolley.</p>
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		<title>By: james evans</title>
		<link>http://blog.newsok.com/okccentral/2009/07/01/say-what/comment-page-1/#comment-3364</link>
		<dc:creator>james evans</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Jul 2009 21:07:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.newsok.com/okccentral/2009/07/01/say-what/#comment-3364</guid>
		<description>Crotch-rocket riders loitering in an empty lot? Not exactly what Bricktown needs. I&#039;m sure there is plenty of opportunity for this sort of thing on the southside. Or in Del City.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Crotch-rocket riders loitering in an empty lot? Not exactly what Bricktown needs. I&#8217;m sure there is plenty of opportunity for this sort of thing on the southside. Or in Del City.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff</title>
		<link>http://blog.newsok.com/okccentral/2009/07/01/say-what/comment-page-1/#comment-3363</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Jul 2009 19:48:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.newsok.com/okccentral/2009/07/01/say-what/#comment-3363</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not sure that Bricktown is necessarily &quot;trying&quot; to be unfriendly.  I think there is a deficit of people who actually are &quot;in the culture&quot; that make up the business, management, and policing community.

I think part of it is our fault for sure.  lol  Most of us just get on a bike and ride.  There is so much freedom in it we don&#039;t really &quot;fight&quot; to be allowed someplace.  We just find places were there is no resistance.

There were no rules for that area that applied to us, then there were rules.

Again, the absolute best thing that could happen is someone review the policy and broker with the ball park.  It was a great space and is severely underutilized.

Also, there really weren&#039;t any officially organized &quot;heads&quot; or organizations in the street bike community that I am aware of.  It has always been pretty organic which has been a great thing.

Sometimes we structure and &quot;over think&quot; things too much.  If it will help I will put on my leather gear and go to some meetings.  lol  I just wish that we didn&#039;t have to debate, discuss, analyze, and plan for every little thing and place that should be downtown.

Somethings should just be left well enough alone to happen organically.  That is the glue that makes urban environments interesting.  Adding the rules and eliminating the space totally killed it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not sure that Bricktown is necessarily &#8220;trying&#8221; to be unfriendly.  I think there is a deficit of people who actually are &#8220;in the culture&#8221; that make up the business, management, and policing community.</p>
<p>I think part of it is our fault for sure.  lol  Most of us just get on a bike and ride.  There is so much freedom in it we don&#8217;t really &#8220;fight&#8221; to be allowed someplace.  We just find places were there is no resistance.</p>
<p>There were no rules for that area that applied to us, then there were rules.</p>
<p>Again, the absolute best thing that could happen is someone review the policy and broker with the ball park.  It was a great space and is severely underutilized.</p>
<p>Also, there really weren&#8217;t any officially organized &#8220;heads&#8221; or organizations in the street bike community that I am aware of.  It has always been pretty organic which has been a great thing.</p>
<p>Sometimes we structure and &#8220;over think&#8221; things too much.  If it will help I will put on my leather gear and go to some meetings.  lol  I just wish that we didn&#8217;t have to debate, discuss, analyze, and plan for every little thing and place that should be downtown.</p>
<p>Somethings should just be left well enough alone to happen organically.  That is the glue that makes urban environments interesting.  Adding the rules and eliminating the space totally killed it.</p>
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		<title>By: slackmeyer</title>
		<link>http://blog.newsok.com/okccentral/2009/07/01/say-what/comment-page-1/#comment-3362</link>
		<dc:creator>slackmeyer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Jul 2009 19:17:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.newsok.com/okccentral/2009/07/01/say-what/#comment-3362</guid>
		<description>Well, it sounds to me as if a pro-active stance was/is needed by the biker community. Why can&#039;t they work with the Bricktown Association to come up with an area that is appropriate. From what you&#039;re saying, I&#039;d guess that maybe not every spot is the right spot for bikers. That&#039;s not a slam against bikers. From what you say, there are places appropriate for bikers that aren&#039;t good for pedestrians.
Seems like there&#039;s an opportunity here - the creation of a place that&#039;s got open parking for bikes and caters to bikers - kind of like the place at Western and Memorial (forgive me, I don&#039;t know the name). If a place like this is needed like downtown, maybe it needs to be created in conjunction with various leaders, merchants and bikers, instead of the two sides inadvertantly getting each other mad.
For what it&#039;s worth, while I was walking in Bricktown today I saw a permanent sidewalk marker for a biker event that occured in 2003. This doesn&#039;t sound like a district trying to be hostile or against bikers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, it sounds to me as if a pro-active stance was/is needed by the biker community. Why can&#8217;t they work with the Bricktown Association to come up with an area that is appropriate. From what you&#8217;re saying, I&#8217;d guess that maybe not every spot is the right spot for bikers. That&#8217;s not a slam against bikers. From what you say, there are places appropriate for bikers that aren&#8217;t good for pedestrians.<br />
Seems like there&#8217;s an opportunity here &#8211; the creation of a place that&#8217;s got open parking for bikes and caters to bikers &#8211; kind of like the place at Western and Memorial (forgive me, I don&#8217;t know the name). If a place like this is needed like downtown, maybe it needs to be created in conjunction with various leaders, merchants and bikers, instead of the two sides inadvertantly getting each other mad.<br />
For what it&#8217;s worth, while I was walking in Bricktown today I saw a permanent sidewalk marker for a biker event that occured in 2003. This doesn&#8217;t sound like a district trying to be hostile or against bikers.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff</title>
		<link>http://blog.newsok.com/okccentral/2009/07/01/say-what/comment-page-1/#comment-3361</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Jul 2009 18:02:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.newsok.com/okccentral/2009/07/01/say-what/#comment-3361</guid>
		<description>Hey Steve.  I&#039;m actually going to comment on this as I am a motorcyclist living in Deep Deuce.  Your grabber above is well written and highly pragmatic.  The problem is biker culture is not pragmatic.

There are three primary cultures of motorcyclists that I have observed-

1.  Harley Riders &quot;HOG&quot;
2.  Super or Street Bike Riders &quot;Crotch Rockets&quot;
3.  Up and coming plethora of newbie Scooter Riders &quot;Stellas&quot; etc.

I own a crotch rocket.  I can&#039;t really speak for Hog or Scooter riders.  However, my guess is that their issues are similar.

There is no pragmatic way to explain this other than riders like comfortable &quot;habitats&quot;.  You can like it to any group that congregates- animals, bible study groups, birds, or skateboarders. lol

Bikers are no exception.  They usually congregate with their own &quot;type&quot; (though not exclusively) and very much do their socializing with people that ride, not pedestrians walking down the street.  However, we sit on our bikes, talk to our friends and watch what is going on up and down the street.

Before Bricktown became very &quot;managed&quot; there were lots of places that became attractive for congregating.  The most notable spot was the extremely large underutilized space in front of the ball park.  It became a street bike hot spot because it was open, protected by a curb and pylon barriers that kept traffic away from our bikes.  If an event was going on near or in the area we simply didn&#039;t show up those days because we didn&#039;t want to get in the way or have our prized possessions damaged.  However, I can remember dozens of bikes lined up.  You would take your girlfriend, buy her dinner, then hang out with your friends and watch people and stuff going on.  You were close enough to the action but far enough away you weren&#039;t in the way of any of the pedestrian activity.

I can&#039;t quantify what the economic impact of our group constituted.  I know I bought food for myself or dates.  However, we were out there nearly every night so we couldn&#039;t blow $60.00 on a meal every single night.  Most people bought food from the sonic by the fountain.  Obviously drinking is not very smart when riding any kind of bike.  So we didn&#039;t spend much on drinking.

The problems occurred when the &quot;over management&quot; started.  The police did not like large groups of people congregating and if I recall there was an incident when a drunk jack ass ran into a parked car (not part of our group by the way).  Of course that could have happened irregardless of whether or not we were nearby.

Basically, the &quot;non-rider&quot; and &quot;lack of understanding&quot; took our spot away and I have never seen the level of my group back since.  The Ball Park did not care one way or another until it was questioned by merchants and authorities.  A hasty decision was made that we weren&#039;t contributing enough to allow us to congregate there and we left.  We tried to &quot;re-congregate&quot; near the fountain in the small indented drop off zone but soon park limit signs were added to move us out.

I realize that it is a difficult element to understand if your not a rider.  However, it is a culture with viral and quick communication.  When we were asked to leave we left.  We felt insulted because were citizens- not some &quot;mad max&quot; sort of people.  We haven&#039;t been back in an steady since or large numbers since.

There are not enough parking spaces along the street to facilitate the kind of gathering we had.  Plus, street parking creates &quot;a line&quot; of bikes.  It is not conducive for sitting on your bike and socializing like group parking.  It is like trying to talk to somebody at the end of a lunch counter.  You have to yell and nobody wants to do that.

I was in Bricktown often and it was an awesome environment in front of the ball park.  I think that we were severely misunderstood and perhaps regarded as threatening.  However, the &quot;crotch rocket&quot; culture is youthful and we have our own etiquette.  Many of the people in the group were lawyers, bankers, college guys and gals, older high schoolers- quite an interesting mix (Oldest was 60 youngest was 15).  When you get on a bike you leave your work behind and you enter a different world.

You just want to chill, watch people, have people come by and admire your bike, hang with your girl, and pretty much be left alone by &quot;the man&quot; or authority.

I feel we added cultural diversity to Bricktown and perhaps a responsible protective element because we cared about the neighborhood and there the &quot;eyes on the street&quot;.  However, we want a protected space, for free, alignment of bikes in groups, and someplace that we can see the action.  The ball park large, protected, flat, and smooth concrete space is still perfect and undeveloped and if the city, ball park authorities, Bricktown association, etc made it available to us again I think the gesture would be much appreciated. Jeff Bezdek</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey Steve.  I&#8217;m actually going to comment on this as I am a motorcyclist living in Deep Deuce.  Your grabber above is well written and highly pragmatic.  The problem is biker culture is not pragmatic.</p>
<p>There are three primary cultures of motorcyclists that I have observed-</p>
<p>1.  Harley Riders &#8220;HOG&#8221;<br />
2.  Super or Street Bike Riders &#8220;Crotch Rockets&#8221;<br />
3.  Up and coming plethora of newbie Scooter Riders &#8220;Stellas&#8221; etc.</p>
<p>I own a crotch rocket.  I can&#8217;t really speak for Hog or Scooter riders.  However, my guess is that their issues are similar.</p>
<p>There is no pragmatic way to explain this other than riders like comfortable &#8220;habitats&#8221;.  You can like it to any group that congregates- animals, bible study groups, birds, or skateboarders. lol</p>
<p>Bikers are no exception.  They usually congregate with their own &#8220;type&#8221; (though not exclusively) and very much do their socializing with people that ride, not pedestrians walking down the street.  However, we sit on our bikes, talk to our friends and watch what is going on up and down the street.</p>
<p>Before Bricktown became very &#8220;managed&#8221; there were lots of places that became attractive for congregating.  The most notable spot was the extremely large underutilized space in front of the ball park.  It became a street bike hot spot because it was open, protected by a curb and pylon barriers that kept traffic away from our bikes.  If an event was going on near or in the area we simply didn&#8217;t show up those days because we didn&#8217;t want to get in the way or have our prized possessions damaged.  However, I can remember dozens of bikes lined up.  You would take your girlfriend, buy her dinner, then hang out with your friends and watch people and stuff going on.  You were close enough to the action but far enough away you weren&#8217;t in the way of any of the pedestrian activity.</p>
<p>I can&#8217;t quantify what the economic impact of our group constituted.  I know I bought food for myself or dates.  However, we were out there nearly every night so we couldn&#8217;t blow $60.00 on a meal every single night.  Most people bought food from the sonic by the fountain.  Obviously drinking is not very smart when riding any kind of bike.  So we didn&#8217;t spend much on drinking.</p>
<p>The problems occurred when the &#8220;over management&#8221; started.  The police did not like large groups of people congregating and if I recall there was an incident when a drunk jack ass ran into a parked car (not part of our group by the way).  Of course that could have happened irregardless of whether or not we were nearby.</p>
<p>Basically, the &#8220;non-rider&#8221; and &#8220;lack of understanding&#8221; took our spot away and I have never seen the level of my group back since.  The Ball Park did not care one way or another until it was questioned by merchants and authorities.  A hasty decision was made that we weren&#8217;t contributing enough to allow us to congregate there and we left.  We tried to &#8220;re-congregate&#8221; near the fountain in the small indented drop off zone but soon park limit signs were added to move us out.</p>
<p>I realize that it is a difficult element to understand if your not a rider.  However, it is a culture with viral and quick communication.  When we were asked to leave we left.  We felt insulted because were citizens- not some &#8220;mad max&#8221; sort of people.  We haven&#8217;t been back in an steady since or large numbers since.</p>
<p>There are not enough parking spaces along the street to facilitate the kind of gathering we had.  Plus, street parking creates &#8220;a line&#8221; of bikes.  It is not conducive for sitting on your bike and socializing like group parking.  It is like trying to talk to somebody at the end of a lunch counter.  You have to yell and nobody wants to do that.</p>
<p>I was in Bricktown often and it was an awesome environment in front of the ball park.  I think that we were severely misunderstood and perhaps regarded as threatening.  However, the &#8220;crotch rocket&#8221; culture is youthful and we have our own etiquette.  Many of the people in the group were lawyers, bankers, college guys and gals, older high schoolers- quite an interesting mix (Oldest was 60 youngest was 15).  When you get on a bike you leave your work behind and you enter a different world.</p>
<p>You just want to chill, watch people, have people come by and admire your bike, hang with your girl, and pretty much be left alone by &#8220;the man&#8221; or authority.</p>
<p>I feel we added cultural diversity to Bricktown and perhaps a responsible protective element because we cared about the neighborhood and there the &#8220;eyes on the street&#8221;.  However, we want a protected space, for free, alignment of bikes in groups, and someplace that we can see the action.  The ball park large, protected, flat, and smooth concrete space is still perfect and undeveloped and if the city, ball park authorities, Bricktown association, etc made it available to us again I think the gesture would be much appreciated. Jeff Bezdek</p>
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