Comments on: Coffee Talk Time – Core to Shore

By: Gary W.

Gary W. — Wed, 17 Jun 2009 20:51:12 +0000

Here is my fear for C2S: We will include the park, river, convention center, canal extension and $150 million for transportation for street car and improving buses. People will complain that there is not enough money towards transportation and vote no because no one explained that it would be too expensive for light rail.

Here is my hope for C2S: We will include the park, river, convention center, canal extension and $150 million for transportation for street car and equipping buses with CNG engines. People will complain that there is not enough money towards transportation, but will relax when Mick explains a proposal for a $2.5 billion bond/tax issue to build light rail from Edmond to Norman and a form express bus from the airport to a new Multi-modal station built where the Stewart Metal buildings are in Bricktown. From the new station, the streetcars will run down Sheridan through BT, CBD and to Auto Alley.

By: Doug

Doug — Wed, 17 Jun 2009 19:11:24 +0000

Like any home, a city needs continuous tlc and improvement. Putting off progress and investment today will most certainly lead to a need for more costly investment later on. I believe that’s one cost. Another, and to me, more important, is the potential loss of forward momentum. OKC really does have it going on right now. Improving the area between downtown and the Oklahoma River, especially with public park space, will really change the perception, as well as the reality, of OKC being a true “big league city”. Plus, that area is so blighted right now. Let’s get on with it.

By: Mike

Mike — Wed, 17 Jun 2009 16:54:36 +0000

My impression is this is a cart before the horse discussion.
As someone peripherally involved in the leasing of new rental housing in the downtown area, I can tell you the people coming in from out of state (about 80% of our project)are looking at public transportation/walkability options first before making housing decisions. I know it is hard to believe but some very well paid individuals coming from other east/west metropoliton areas have no car, have had no need for a car.
When these residents’ family and friends fly in to visit, they are amazed that they can’t go anywhere without difficulty.
There is really not enough room in the downtown area to get housing/business/commercial and retail density and PARKING for everything; without a useful public transpotation option.
It is my opinion from personal exposure that all future residential development will be financially driven by easy access to transpotation corridors (TOD’s).

By: Brian

Brian — Wed, 17 Jun 2009 14:39:01 +0000

I think the biggest difference between Dallas/West End/Deep Ellum and Oklahoma City/Bricktown/C2S is in Dallas you are talking about 2 similar entertainment districts in close proximity, but not really within walking distance of each other (at least according to the typical person from this part of the country). In OKC, C2S is not going to be an entertainment district, though it will undoubtedly have some restaurants and shops eventually. Also, the two districts are just a couple blocks from each other, and the Ford Center will be a nice “bridge” between the two. I cannot speak very well about the KC/Power & Light since I have not been there, so I won’t even try.

We need a new convention center, and with the increased activity on the Oklahoma River, it sure would be nice to have a continuous urban and safe neighborhood all the way from downtown to the river. And where would we build a convention center if not in C2S? And if built in the area south of the Ford Center and not cleaning up the area, what good does that do us? Now, I am not sure we need to be spending $200 million on a central park in C2S. Perhaps we can have a nice green space there with some trees and a simple ampitheatre for now, and add things to it later through other means or a MAPS4. Perhaps we could tap into the Devon/Chesapeake/SandRidge desire to outdo each other to pay for some projects in the park?

Just like I have advocated in the past with building a slightly smaller convention center that can be expanded (leaving empty land/park beside it to expand into– probably on the south end), and not spending $450 million or whatever on it now, I think we should do the same with the central park. Hopefully, this would leave enough room in MAPS3 for some mass transit. Just think if city leaders had decided that we had to go all out and build a $250 million Ford Center, and a $200 million baseball stadium, etc. in the original MAPS? We would not have gotten all the great projects that we did. We should keep this in mind for the C2S central park and the convention center.

By: KEVIN

KEVIN — Wed, 17 Jun 2009 14:22:56 +0000

Okc needs to make a move now! Okc is behind already a decade and half compared to other major cities (Dallas, Orlando, etc.) I’m tired of people asking me what is there to do in Oklahoma, really for a teenager growing up in Okc it sucks! So if the C2S project can help improve our city and its image why not get on the ball NOW! Waiting a decade is TOO LONG! The city needs to start tearing down old buildings south of I40 and start building new ones ASAP! Okc needs to improve the amusement parks because White Water and Frontier City just won’t do! I’m 34 and growing up in Okc was boring because there was nothing to do so we had to go to Dallas to have fun and it’s still like that today. We need to think about our kids and our kids future in Okc and give them something to brag about to their relatives and friends in other cities who think our city is WACK! IF THE C2S CAN CHANGE THAT, THEN LET’S MAKE IT HAPPEN!

By: Brent

Brent — Wed, 17 Jun 2009 13:42:06 +0000

A few more thoughts to throw on the pile: I think there is a strong argument to make that Automobile Alley, Midtown and others are either the direct or indirect result of the first MAPS program and Bricktown. Thus, while we are for the moment concentrating on the possible negative effects of C2S on other districts, we do not have the vision to see all the possible POSITIVE ancillary effects that would possibly stem from C2S. Who is to say that C2S will not be the catalyst for another spurt of development on neighboring areas (including Midtown, Automobile Alley and others that have not even been thought of yet)?

Further, I think we should get away from the notion of a zero-sum game for the downtown area. The thought behind C2S seems to be, not whether business A will locate in Bricktown, Automobile Alley or C2S, but rather that C2S will bring both business A and B (and hopefully C-T). If the argument is that C2S will not bring in the businesses and residents to the downtown area that we hope, then I would like to hear why that may be the case.

By: Chad Reynolds

Chad Reynolds — Wed, 17 Jun 2009 12:41:58 +0000

Good question, Steve–one that shows just how important it is to move simultaneously on the C2S and a streetcar system. C2S will become our civic centerpiece, and a modern streetcar system will tie it in to the other districts like Bricktown, Midtown, Automobile Alley, etc. This will do two things: 1) concentrate development around and within the streetcar loop, which will be big enough to include all the downtown “hot spots”; and 2) and ensure that development in one area doesn’t stunt the growth in another. Your question, while unpopular perhaps, shows how important both pieces are to our urban puzzle. I agree with the others who have said we shouldn’t wait to do this because doing so may jeopardize our chances to accomplish this in the future. If we have the will to raise the capital now (which the MAPS 3 vote will tell), then there is no better time. And while I do appreciate you raising a note of caution as we move toward razing buildings south of downtown to make our new park, a note that Blair Humphreys raised a while ago over at imagiNATIVE america in his post titled “Things I Should Have Posted Over the Last 3 Weeks (5 of 10)”, I think it’s disanalogous to compare this situation to the razing of Main Street in the late 60s and 70s. First, Urban Renewal authority used eminent domain (as I learned from your book OKC Second Time Around) to acquire the property on which flourishing businesses like John A. Brown’s were located. What is there of real value between the downtown and the river? C2S would add value; the failed Galleria shopping mall did nothing but subtract value. Once the land is cleared, the C2S has a more realistic chance of getting built than the Galleria ever did. In fact, Urban Renewal razed all those buildings without having the Galleria plans/funds/developer set in stone. MAPS 3 would presumably provide those key items to the C2S.

By: Dennis

Dennis — Wed, 17 Jun 2009 11:29:11 +0000

Too many babies in the nursery?

There IS a risk that a large, fertile new development zone will cause developers to focus on this new hot spot rather than other districts that aren’t quite finished blooming. If I’m a developer looking for the best site to put a condo project, C2S might cause me to choose Shoretown rather than Midtown.

In that regard, a 5 year breather might not be a bad idea… Give our infant and adolescent districts time to mature.

The MAPS-3 agenda shouldn’t be postponed, but maybe some sort of governor could be included that prevents a mad rush. I wouldn’t have a clue how such a metering device would be crafted. That’s why we have city planners!

As a Midtown resident I see the merit of tempering our eagerness with thoughtful planning.

By: Joe

Joe — Wed, 17 Jun 2009 07:05:42 +0000

My last Captcha was “fascist winners”

thought that was funny….

Proceed.

By: Joe

Joe — Wed, 17 Jun 2009 07:04:59 +0000

“I look around at Bricktown, Midtown, A-alley and downtown and see that, while coming along nicely, have just really started to hit any sort of stride and have a loooooong way to go. There are vacant lots and underutilized buildings on almost every block throughout the city.”

If only we had something that would bring people to the Oklahoma City area that would help utilize those buildings.

What would help solve that problem?