Perhaps the better question is what is the upside for putting off C2S for a decade? We save a one cent sales tax for 10 years? There are very few of today’s downtown “issues” that are solved by holding off on C2S. I am about as anti-tax and limited government as they come, but there is something to be said for the fact we as citizens of OKC have decided to improve our city on our own. We didn’t wait for the feds or even the state. The most effective taxation has always seemed to be local taxation.

If we look around the country, if a city is not improving itself it is in decline: Detroit, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, almost all of the rust belt cities. If you wait to improve, it is often too late or too difficult to re-start the process. The word “momentum” is thrown around almost too often, but that is really an issue in a situation like this. It was immensely difficult to get the first MAPS passed, and people have short memories. If OKC can implement C2S (or at least many components) during a national economic downturn we will be just that further ahead of the nation.

Why would we want to lose the chance to mold OKC into the city we want it to become rather then let outside forces control the development of the city? If we wait 10 years for C2S that is just 10 lost years and we will be at the same place we are now.

I could not agree more with Brent!!!

I hate to echo Brent’s sentiments, but, if we dont take care of this in the next few years I kind of envision things falling apart. Oklahoma City will discontinue being the next big thing in American culture. Newspapers will quit calling us “The Capitol of the Heartland” and “America’s Best Kept Secret”.

I’ve been saying this for about a year now, and I stand by it; Core to Shore is the most important thing to happen to Oklahoma since the land run. I’d venture to say more important than MAPS 1 and 2, and even more important than NBA in Oklahoma. In fact, I believe C2S is the solution to keeping the Thunder here long term.

Imagine this, The UCO “School of Rock” decides to host a music festival that will one day rival Austin City Limits and books some of their local bands and some very big acts for their now 3rd annual “Oklahoma City Tilting Windmill Music Festival”, a group of college students in Dallas decide to make their way up to Oklahoma City to check out the action. On the way to their hotel, they pass over the new Core to Shore that’s just been finished on I-40 and see 200,000 people walking the park and moving to and from bricktown or the business district after a long week of work in the newly minted Devon Tower. This particular group of students sees shops restaurants, river cabs, a band playing on the new amphitheater. A listen to a great set of music for several hours before heading to bricktown, on the way they see eldery couples walking next to a water fountain, a art student admiring a sculpture that was put in the previous summer. They see newly built high rise apartment complexes as the 20 and 30 somethings make their way down stairs to walk over to the nightlife district. The students get to bricktown to see lights and entertainment with street performers. Activities at the Red Rock convention center get out and tens of thousands of people make way to Nona’s, spaghetti wearhouse of one of hundreds of new restaurants in the area. The students decide on Coyote Ugly and then make their way to a 24 hour Sonic that’s recently been built by the redeveloped canal for 4th meal. All in all that group of students will probably spend 500 dollars each, a injection of 2,500 dollars into the local community. Take that figure and multiply it by several hundred thousand and you have a brand new industry in the Nations newest exciting city.

This hypothetical story could go on and on with the boulevard, shopping malls, nigh clubs, river events, etc. This project only happens if we build on the momentum we’ve been building right now. If we dont do it within the next 5 years OKC will slip back into mediocrity and the draw to bricktown will eventually even out and maybe even drop. We have the opportunity to show not just the states but the world that we’re the next big thing, but if we fail to move forward on this carefully and strategically (not biting off more than we can chew), the jobs will stop being created, events will discontinue to flow every weekend, bright ambitions like public transit and iconic land marks fade quickly and we go back to just being an old city that, at one time, had big dreams of running with the big dogs.

Brent, you ask a good question, and here is my answer: I’m hearing more and more people (and consultants hired by the city) talk about how Core to Shore could kill momentum downtown. Look at Kansas City – what is happening in the rest of downtown Kansas City now that the Power Light District is up and running? What happened to West End and Deep Ellum in Dallas once American Airlines Center and Victory were up and running?

There might be a few reasons to postpone C2S: Riding out the National Recession, giving the taxpayers a break in MAPS taxes, or perhaps focusing on public transit first.

But the benefits of going forward NOW significantly outweigh the reasons for a wait-and-see approach. National economic conditions, as mentioned in the Sacramento Bee article, are inviting people to consider relocation to less-expensive areas. C2S would add another inducement to our growing war chest of great reasons to live in OKC.

So do you believe then that Core to Shore represents Oklahoma City’s best hope at moving forward? Or are there better ways of doing so? If it’s a choice between street cars and launching a real public transit system vs. Core to Shore, which one do you go for? If you’re advised that Core to Shore could turn Bricktown into the next West End and could stunt growth in Automobile Alley, Film Row and MidTown, does Core to Shore really represent forward momentum? Yes, I’m asking unpopular questions again, because it’s my sense nobody did so in Kansas City or Dallas until it was too late.

Now, I see your real question, Steve. Trouble is, I believe the City has already gone too far, and might not be able to backtrack on C2S. I-40 reconstruction is happening now. The City has purchased the Main Post Office, and is helping to relocate Goodwill.

If the C2S momentum were to be disrupted, we may wind up with a ghost town just North of the new I-40, full of transients and the social issues they bring. That alone could pose a risk to continued growth in Bricktown, Film Row, and Auto Alley.

Moreover, single-minded speculators may purchase North Shore properties for purposes that may not be compatible with C2S planning.

Finally, if we pause C2S, we send a message to the world that our City’s leadership is ‘wishy-washy’.

I guess by that logic then there was no mistake by the city when they decided to go ahead and tear down Main Street even though they already were getting warnings at that point (the mid-1970s) that downtown malls were not working. Land has been bought, that’s all. There’s a big difference between buying land then then turning it into a rival district.

The first assumption would have to be that the city would still proceed with the Core 2 Shore plan after 10 years. And that’s a huge assumption. In 10 years we are going to be facing a whole other set of issues that the city will be dealing with. And to be completely realistic, its going to take a full 10-15 years for the Core 2 Shore area to develop into an actual extension of the city. The development of Bricktown should be an example of that. Although I’d argue that its not an actual urban environment.

Steve, your question may be unpopular, but hopefully it will cause people to think. I’m in agreement with you about what has happened in Dallas and Kansas City. I have family, and intense interest in both areas. But I would argue that the reason those areas have fallen out of favor is due to a lack of real ‘density,’ just like Bricktown. Until OKC realizes that we don’t even have a true core, we won’t gain successful growth. Both of those areas failed because they are entertainment districts catered towards “the night out” rather than a true working neighborhood. There isn’t a seriously viable option for living downtown in OKC right now. Core 2 Shore has the potential to change that.

But its only potential. The biggest part of the puzzle I can see so far is that Maps3 and its implementation of Core2Shore equals a park and convention center with a Disney World trolley system. For the park to be successful, it needs people who will use it everyday, with their families, friends, etc. Plan the park, but plan and make incentives for developers to create a range of dense housing options and the required neighborhood facilities. And publicly state that larger plan.

Forget the problem of convention space…solve the density problem, in the right way, and you’ll have a true downtown core. Maybe if the leadership would just read some of Casey Cornett’s thoughts…

I guess what I’m trying to say is that Core2Shore is a good idea – yes a park is good, and the city NEEDS a true transportation plan, but the city needs concentrated mass to make any of these work and that’s what the Core2Shore plan should really be about. Until these issues are addressed in a holistic way, Maps3 will just be another simple list of ‘things’ loosely connected. If something is to happen now, it needs to represent a well defined incremental part of a larger, clear vision for what OKC will be in 15-25 years. “Make no little plans. They have no magic to stir men’s blood

If we stop the momentum now, it will be extremely difficult to pick it back up. Core to Shore is an opportunity to enhance the entire central core, not take away from it. C2S gives us what OKC is desperately lacking…waterfront living, urban park, more pedestrian-friendly mixed-use neighborhoods. Core to Shore will already take 10-20 years to fully implement, holding off another decade will only make it that much longer until we see real results.

Something we should be dialoguing about more is the proposed boulevard. I’m not sure that city planners have thought this through fully. Also, we should not neglect what consultants have recommended for the already existing downtown nieghborhoods (Jeff Speck, Bricktown parking study, downtown housing study, and other Downtown Strategic Plan initiatives).

C2S could dilute our urban momentum, but I think the intimate relationship between our Bricktown-Downtown-Convention-Arena sets us apart from the mentioned examples of district failure. We should work to strengthen and enhance that intimacy (canal extension!). Dallas’ West End is really an island of bars and restaurants… not connected to anything of significance (no housing, large venue entertainment, etc.). It died because of its isolation and because the novelty wore off and because it didn’t have any special feature, like a canal. (It WAS also diluted by Deep Elum and Uptown.)

OKC’s urban geography would be much better if our north-south street grid bent from south downtown toward the boathouse “district.” This would have been a much more manageable C2S development. But that’s not what we have. We have a very large chunk of land bisected by a major interstate highway. That’s why it’s important to have a very large park, lots of different density housing, and a good amount of commercial; but discourage concentrated entertainment uses that would dilute Bricktown.

There is a risk that C2S will dampen downtown, but it’s impossible to know. Fear of screwing up shouldn’t outweigh passion for excellence. Personally I think that our Bricktown-Downtown has the critical mass to survive… as long as we continue to nurture and strengthen these good parts while we develop our new parts.

One of the new parts should be efficient shuttle transportation between all of the above parts… But we should not do large scale mass trans, yet.

The keys to keeping the success moving forward is to require buildings being built downtown (unless they are purely commercial like Devon Tower) to be mixed use development. Residential mixed with a street level retail or residential mixed with hotels or all of the above. Every building needs to be built next to the street, nothing set back (plazas or parking). To keep Bricktown and Midtown and even Film Row going, there has to be more residential infused.

From what I remember Deep Ellum and West End did not have that, they were purely entertainment. That partially led to their demise, in addition to lack of maintenance by the city. Everything being developed or built in Austin follows this model. By the way, Austin is one of the coolest cities in America.

What is a 1 cent tax? It is nothing, no one ever feels it. The best part about it is even if you spend $100, it is only an additional $1. The second best part about it is that it is partially funded by people that don’t live in the city at all. All of the stuff built downtown (Ballpark, Ford Center, Canal) was partially paid for by tourists or people passing thru. I think it is beautiful and it has to keep going. If and when we get to MAPS 10, you can bet that I will be behind it.

Steve, no one should consider any questions to be “unpopular.” All angles should be considered, it is great to ask them. It is always great to have a devil’s advocate in the bunch. As far as my own opinion, C2S is obviously a risk, there is nothing guaranteed here. However, will halting C2S plans increase the density of Bricktown or the rest of downtown? Perhaps somewhat as shops/businesses that can not relocate to the C2S area move to Bricktown or further build up other downtown areas. However, it is more likely in my opinion, that a good C2S plan attracts far more businesses to OKC than without it, which I think should be one of the top goals of any C2S/MAPS plans.

From what I have seen of the planning, C2S does not directly compete with Bricktown. There are certainly ancillary components that would, but it appears that the main thrust of C2S is to supplement Bricktown and provide a somewhat different function: attract additional tourists (like Bricktown), but add the room for additional housing and provide an area for high-level businesses to locate to downtown OKC (businesses that would otherwise not occupy any currently vacant spaces).

Again, I agree that C2S is a risk and we must go in with our eyes open, but from what I have seen of C2S we are dealing with a bit of a different animal from Dallas’ West End or KC’s Power and Light District. It isn’t just about providing another entertainment district, but rather increasing quality of life (hopefully with a good transit element) and attracting more businesses and downtown residents that would otherwise not even consider locating to downtown OKC.

When I bring up Austin I meant that everything being built there is pedestrian friendly and mixed use. Put that sentence in there with Dallas. What a mistake!

The notion that this is going to somehow curb development to other parts of the city seems silly to me.

The story recently put out about the 1 billions dollar stimulus that the ongoing projects are bringing is proof enough that projects like this build growth everywhere else. If not for MAPS 1 and 2 those hundred million dollar projects would be a pipe dream. If not for MAPS 1 and 2 we’d still be losing all our college graduates to Dallas, Houston, Kansas City, and St. Louis. We’d all be driving over a dried up eye-sore of a river, the Dell’s and Sandridges of the world wouldn’t have relocated here.

Careful, strategic, well planned growth that puts the emphasis on quality of life brings people here. I know the tough questions need to be asked but there is no reason not to press forward with this. Clearly it needs to be well thought out but Film Row, The Paseo, Auto alley, the business district, bricktown, and even new districts that will pop up south of the OK river and East of I-35 will grow bringing in more residents, and business, which will bring in more private investors and contractors to pump money into the surrounding areas. If you look at the most successful city models in the country and the world they have an epicenter, a cultural hub that keeps people in the city. The city is growing exponentially right now, to put a stop to the city pride and growth would just be a shame.

The idea that Core-to-Shore will take 10-15 years to develop is ludicrous. Try 50. 10 years is a blip. It’s taken 5 years just to get some infill from conception to completion in Deep Deuce, and the demand doesn’t exactly have other builders clamoring to break ground. Bricktown(as a concept) is around 15 years old and we all know its shortcomings.

I look around at Bricktown, Midtown, A-alley and downtown and see that, while coming along nicely, have just really started to hit any sort of stride and have a loooooong way to go. There are vacant lots and underutilized buildings on almost every block throughout the city.

We’re going to spread ourselves too thin with C2S. Let’s mine the existing assets for a while longer.

“I look around at Bricktown, Midtown, A-alley and downtown and see that, while coming along nicely, have just really started to hit any sort of stride and have a loooooong way to go. There are vacant lots and underutilized buildings on almost every block throughout the city.”

If only we had something that would bring people to the Oklahoma City area that would help utilize those buildings.

What would help solve that problem?

My last Captcha was “fascist winners”

thought that was funny….

Proceed.

Too many babies in the nursery?

There IS a risk that a large, fertile new development zone will cause developers to focus on this new hot spot rather than other districts that aren’t quite finished blooming. If I’m a developer looking for the best site to put a condo project, C2S might cause me to choose Shoretown rather than Midtown.

In that regard, a 5 year breather might not be a bad idea… Give our infant and adolescent districts time to mature.

The MAPS-3 agenda shouldn’t be postponed, but maybe some sort of governor could be included that prevents a mad rush. I wouldn’t have a clue how such a metering device would be crafted. That’s why we have city planners!

As a Midtown resident I see the merit of tempering our eagerness with thoughtful planning.

Good question, Steve–one that shows just how important it is to move simultaneously on the C2S and a streetcar system. C2S will become our civic centerpiece, and a modern streetcar system will tie it in to the other districts like Bricktown, Midtown, Automobile Alley, etc. This will do two things: 1) concentrate development around and within the streetcar loop, which will be big enough to include all the downtown “hot spots”; and 2) and ensure that development in one area doesn’t stunt the growth in another. Your question, while unpopular perhaps, shows how important both pieces are to our urban puzzle. I agree with the others who have said we shouldn’t wait to do this because doing so may jeopardize our chances to accomplish this in the future. If we have the will to raise the capital now (which the MAPS 3 vote will tell), then there is no better time. And while I do appreciate you raising a note of caution as we move toward razing buildings south of downtown to make our new park, a note that Blair Humphreys raised a while ago over at imagiNATIVE america in his post titled “Things I Should Have Posted Over the Last 3 Weeks (5 of 10)”, I think it’s disanalogous to compare this situation to the razing of Main Street in the late 60s and 70s. First, Urban Renewal authority used eminent domain (as I learned from your book OKC Second Time Around) to acquire the property on which flourishing businesses like John A. Brown’s were located. What is there of real value between the downtown and the river? C2S would add value; the failed Galleria shopping mall did nothing but subtract value. Once the land is cleared, the C2S has a more realistic chance of getting built than the Galleria ever did. In fact, Urban Renewal razed all those buildings without having the Galleria plans/funds/developer set in stone. MAPS 3 would presumably provide those key items to the C2S.

A few more thoughts to throw on the pile: I think there is a strong argument to make that Automobile Alley, Midtown and others are either the direct or indirect result of the first MAPS program and Bricktown. Thus, while we are for the moment concentrating on the possible negative effects of C2S on other districts, we do not have the vision to see all the possible POSITIVE ancillary effects that would possibly stem from C2S. Who is to say that C2S will not be the catalyst for another spurt of development on neighboring areas (including Midtown, Automobile Alley and others that have not even been thought of yet)?

Further, I think we should get away from the notion of a zero-sum game for the downtown area. The thought behind C2S seems to be, not whether business A will locate in Bricktown, Automobile Alley or C2S, but rather that C2S will bring both business A and B (and hopefully C-T). If the argument is that C2S will not bring in the businesses and residents to the downtown area that we hope, then I would like to hear why that may be the case.

Okc needs to make a move now! Okc is behind already a decade and half compared to other major cities (Dallas, Orlando, etc.) I’m tired of people asking me what is there to do in Oklahoma, really for a teenager growing up in Okc it sucks! So if the C2S project can help improve our city and its image why not get on the ball NOW! Waiting a decade is TOO LONG! The city needs to start tearing down old buildings south of I40 and start building new ones ASAP! Okc needs to improve the amusement parks because White Water and Frontier City just won’t do! I’m 34 and growing up in Okc was boring because there was nothing to do so we had to go to Dallas to have fun and it’s still like that today. We need to think about our kids and our kids future in Okc and give them something to brag about to their relatives and friends in other cities who think our city is WACK! IF THE C2S CAN CHANGE THAT, THEN LET’S MAKE IT HAPPEN!

I think the biggest difference between Dallas/West End/Deep Ellum and Oklahoma City/Bricktown/C2S is in Dallas you are talking about 2 similar entertainment districts in close proximity, but not really within walking distance of each other (at least according to the typical person from this part of the country). In OKC, C2S is not going to be an entertainment district, though it will undoubtedly have some restaurants and shops eventually. Also, the two districts are just a couple blocks from each other, and the Ford Center will be a nice “bridge” between the two. I cannot speak very well about the KC/Power & Light since I have not been there, so I won’t even try.

We need a new convention center, and with the increased activity on the Oklahoma River, it sure would be nice to have a continuous urban and safe neighborhood all the way from downtown to the river. And where would we build a convention center if not in C2S? And if built in the area south of the Ford Center and not cleaning up the area, what good does that do us? Now, I am not sure we need to be spending $200 million on a central park in C2S. Perhaps we can have a nice green space there with some trees and a simple ampitheatre for now, and add things to it later through other means or a MAPS4. Perhaps we could tap into the Devon/Chesapeake/SandRidge desire to outdo each other to pay for some projects in the park?

Just like I have advocated in the past with building a slightly smaller convention center that can be expanded (leaving empty land/park beside it to expand into– probably on the south end), and not spending $450 million or whatever on it now, I think we should do the same with the central park. Hopefully, this would leave enough room in MAPS3 for some mass transit. Just think if city leaders had decided that we had to go all out and build a $250 million Ford Center, and a $200 million baseball stadium, etc. in the original MAPS? We would not have gotten all the great projects that we did. We should keep this in mind for the C2S central park and the convention center.

My impression is this is a cart before the horse discussion.
As someone peripherally involved in the leasing of new rental housing in the downtown area, I can tell you the people coming in from out of state (about 80% of our project)are looking at public transportation/walkability options first before making housing decisions. I know it is hard to believe but some very well paid individuals coming from other east/west metropoliton areas have no car, have had no need for a car.
When these residents’ family and friends fly in to visit, they are amazed that they can’t go anywhere without difficulty.
There is really not enough room in the downtown area to get housing/business/commercial and retail density and PARKING for everything; without a useful public transpotation option.
It is my opinion from personal exposure that all future residential development will be financially driven by easy access to transpotation corridors (TOD’s).

Like any home, a city needs continuous tlc and improvement. Putting off progress and investment today will most certainly lead to a need for more costly investment later on. I believe that’s one cost. Another, and to me, more important, is the potential loss of forward momentum. OKC really does have it going on right now. Improving the area between downtown and the Oklahoma River, especially with public park space, will really change the perception, as well as the reality, of OKC being a true “big league city”. Plus, that area is so blighted right now. Let’s get on with it.

Here is my fear for C2S: We will include the park, river, convention center, canal extension and $150 million for transportation for street car and improving buses. People will complain that there is not enough money towards transportation and vote no because no one explained that it would be too expensive for light rail.

Here is my hope for C2S: We will include the park, river, convention center, canal extension and $150 million for transportation for street car and equipping buses with CNG engines. People will complain that there is not enough money towards transportation, but will relax when Mick explains a proposal for a $2.5 billion bond/tax issue to build light rail from Edmond to Norman and a form express bus from the airport to a new Multi-modal station built where the Stewart Metal buildings are in Bricktown. From the new station, the streetcars will run down Sheridan through BT, CBD and to Auto Alley.