Dead or Alive?

Yes, we should push ahead at full speed with all of the above. The original MAPS programs were relatively painless financially, and phenomenally successful. If the economy has changed the voter’s attitude, then that’s that… But I hope a well-designed campaign is timed with an upturning economy so that MAPS-3 passes with flying colors.

Just imagine the benefits gleaned from the news of a huge metropolitan improvement program in combination with the construction on Devon’s iconic tower. OKC is about to be discovered.

Steve, you do a great job of laying everything “out there” for us to comment on.

How much is too much? MAPS-1 was $350 million. MAPS-2 was over $500 million. MAPS-2.5(NBA) is $120 million. We already know a new Convention Center/Hotel will be as much as $450 million. Add in C2S, $80 million for a new Fair Park Building, and public transit projects, and we could be looking at close to $1 billion.

So, is the voting public willing to swallow a $1B MAPS package? I am certain the Mayor, Chamber, and Devon are behind the scenes working on a sales campaign. If there is no rail component to this, then Tom Elmore and his train fans could campaign against the package, using previous anti-MAPS campaigns as a model.

I believe the public just does not know enough about MAPS-3 right now. I’d like to see the proponents unwrap this package now, so the voting public can get informed enough that they can get behind this effort quickly. An election will likely be held in November or December. So 6 months of public education should be good, right?

Steve, is that Coffee Slingers coffee talk? J/K. Good post. As you know, I highly support mass transit as the #1 thing that should be in MAPS3. As you stated, it’s questionable if it will be the backburner item, despite the Citizens Survey the last few years touting it by far as the most popular with citizens. It’s obvious Mick and Roy are wanting the Convention Center #1. I do agree we need a new one, but hope mass transit doesn’t lose again like it (trolleys) failed with MAPS1.

As always, the public will support a MAPS issue if they feel each component is beneficial and well-thought out. The total may be shocking, but when you consider inflation and the leap forward each project will help OKC make, it’s a investment that will have great impact in the long run. MAPS I and II were stopgap measures that improved current assets. The transit and park pieces are generative, new assets that will fill long-time voids.

The convention center has the most obvious economic benefits, but the least apparent public benefit. So it’ll be an interest campaign. I think this is a great opportunity to re-invent the convention center and put in local amenities that will be available for public use in addition to convention use. Unique public assets like lecture rooms, a small concert auditorium, and arts rehearsal/studio space, as well as some indoor public spaces similar to a hotel lobby could attract more buy-in. It would make the convention center a true local asset complementing the park. Just a thought.

Each piece goes hand in hand. A humongous convention center to accommodate throngs of people will do us no good if there’s not an efficient system for transporting those people (who will be visiting from out of town with no car and no confidence to roam downtown on their own).

Also, if MAPS3 does not include mass transit as a #1 or #2 priority, it will be a slap in the face to the citizens who made their voice known in the MAPS3 survey. Balancing tourist economics with quality of life for citizens is critical or else support will wain.

It seems to be a no-brainer…we keep the momentum going. We have a chance very few cities have in the current economy, and OKC can be far ahead when the country fully recovers. Ground is about to be broke on a skyline transforming skyscraper and there are millions of dollars which can be spent for the Devon TIF District. Couple that with a potential MAPS-3 and the possibility is there to raise OKC from regional to national prominence.

As far as transit, I think it is a great idea. However, to play devil’s advocate: how much do we honestly think the people of OKC will really use public transportation? Would it not be just a huge money-pit? Also, it appears there are many ideas for public transit. Do we just enhance the downtown trolley system to finally make it user-friendly, or should we go full bore on a light rail commuter system and full metro area bus system that is timely and reliable? The latter is supremely expensive (and would require Edmond and Norman to really make it beneficial), but this seems to be what most people think of when they say “public transit.” That alone could take up the full MAPS-3 funds and more…without any C2S plans, convention center, or anything else.

It would appear that if we want anything more than just transit, we need to perhaps concentrate on a trolley-type system and make it timely, user-friendly and very reliable. We also need to make sure that Devon TIF funds and any C2S plans can mesh. There is an opportunity to save some public money by ensuring some of the Devon funds can both overlap C2S plans and Devon’s desire to improve the area around the new Tower.

If it was my dream plan: I make the downtown trolley system the signature item of its kind and connect all areas downtown, Bricktown, Automobile Alley, CBD, etc., add a nationally desirable convention center/hotel along the C2S central park with a significant upscale shopping area adjacent for conventioneers, remake the Myriad Gardens to be on par with anything in the country, and C2S would be the catalyst for the building of a whole new downtown residential/office center with cultural areas and museum. We have the launching pad built, it’s time to shoot for the stars, if we miss we may still hit the moon.

All this talk about the transit segment has me wondering what COTPA, and possibly ACOG are up to right now? Is a plan hatching?

It’s a no brainer to me, and I do differ a little from what’s been said so far. All of the above, because that’s the Maps spirit…AS LONG as it contributes to the goal of moving OKC into Tier 2 status. We’re not competing with Wichita anymore. Senior centers and fair park expo centers are not a priority anymore!

We need to channel our efforts into the downtown area right now. Maps 1 was sort of an incomplete starter package just to get the ball rolling, but we’re really on the cusp of breaking out right now. We have the potential to build an inner city that will draw acclaim world-wide and give the entire metro area a shot in the arm.

I think that C2S money, downtown streetcar, and a convention center are the basic 3 building blocks that have to be included. Combined those 3 things will probably be around $500 million. Anything extra is nice, but not necessary. I think a Bricktown Canal extension is the best supplemental idea I’ve heard lately.

I’m really afraid of this state fair expo piece of crap idea though. The State Fair people already get almost ALL of the hotel/motel tax, and were included in Maps 1. It would be nice to be able to revitalize downtown without having a reciprocal State Fair component for once. Plus the idea of a 400,000 sf metal shack is a horrible one. Do we really need that event space? When you factor in all of our world-class equestrian facilities, smaller convention centers all over the metro, and then the Cox and the new convention center, the answer is HELL NO we don’t to pay $80 million for a metal shack that could go towards almost completely paying for downtown streetcar instead.

It is a matter of priorities, but I definitely acknowledge that the great thing about Maps is that it’s always been about comprehensive reform.

I think the City should push forward now more than ever. There will never be exactly the right moment for these types of efforts for the community to invest in itself and its future. The immediate needs of the short term can always crowd out visions for what our community could be in 20/30 years.

I certainly hope that Oklahoma City takes some of Jeff Speck’s report to heart and begins to fashion a model that is more pedestrian friendly, as well as mass transit oriented. We don’t have the population density (yet) to pull transit off without subsidies – but in the long term, I don’t see how it can’t be a big win for the metro area if we start to build it now.

I wasn’t around in the 70s during the urban renewal debacle that occurred at the time, but I hope that those lessons are etched in our collective memory. We’ve been getting it right since Maps I – let’s continue to do so!

Michael H, I agree with your post! But to go on..I’d like to point out that fixed transit routes are not as subsidized as we might think they are. You might disagree with me, which is cool. But there is a big difference between “streetcar” and “light rail” — with LR being much more expensive, bulky, and difficult to do. We would not be able to do LRT without tearing out a lot of our downtown and it’s a better idea for linking Edmond and Norman in my opinion. Streetcar actually has minimal operational expenses.

Second of all, here’s one more big point: Do we not subsidize road transit? We build the roads, and we don’t even charge fares on almost ALL of them (with the exception of I-44). And I would roads are the exact opposite of minimal operational expenses..they actually have huge operational expenses, it’s just usually the state conveniently opts out of maintaining them.

Could we all please stop with this “the people have spoken they want transit in MAPS 3 talk” .. 668 people submitted transit as an idea for maps 3 out of only 2300 submissions

not a big number

And?

I think the biggest problem with the mass transit aspect of MAPS is that the majority of people want some sort of light rail. They want something to connect Edmond and Norman that would be reliable, fast and inexpensive. What they don’t understand is that it will cost BILLIONS to implement. And if something comes out that is not rail (i.e. streetcar, better bus routes or trolleys) people will whine that they didn’t get rail. If it were to come out for rail and that the city was proposing a $0.02 tax for ten years, people would complain that it cost too much and they would never use it. It seems people, in general, want something huge, but don’t want to have to pay the price for it.

I, for one, am for a convention center, a central park and a transit option that could cost about $150-200 million and $600 million total.

I think MAPS3 ought to include funds for a convention center, the central park and its amenities, some kind of rail/mass transit (probably in the city center only), and perhaps a Bricktown Canal extension. I think that the mayor should consider not spending a full $450 million on a convention center now, though. We should spend something like $300 million and leave room for expansion (on the south end). That makes it a little easier to swallow.

I absolutely do not think that it should include anything outside of downtown (and I do not consider the fairgrounds downtown), except perhaps rail/mass transit that will bring people downtown. The fairgrounds already have a tax (hotel/motel) that benefits them. I think we voted on that in the last couple years.

While I would like to see rail lines go to Edmond, Norman, Midwest City, the airport, etc., I am not sure we can afford any of this in MAPS3. If we can, great. But, I also think that the cities of Edmond, Moore, Norman, Midwest City, Del City, and any other city with a rail stop should help pay for it. This should not be a hand-out from Oklahoma City to those suburbs.

I agree with Nick Roberts. Why stop? Maps has done so much for OKC, if OKC would have never done it in the first place, I wouldn’t be here. We have to keep improving OKC, go for 2 billion.

I also say lets bulldoze everything from I-40 North to NW 10th, from Classen to Villa and make a giant central park. Could you imagine the property values along the park? Let’s really do something big picture.

I’m with Brian. Regional cities need to pay up if they want a regional transit answer. OKC can just do LRT from downtown to the Northwest Expressway and out to the airport if Moore, Norman, and Edmond don’t want to participate. Pay to play..and I say that as a Norman guy.

When it comes to a lot of that stuff though, if we want federal funding for mass transit we have to put up a “down payment” on a rail system. If we do a comprehensive downtown fixed streetcar system (not crappy diesel buses) that is mass transit, is affordable, and is sleek and modern enough to impress everyone, then we’ve met out goals, gone with a compromise everybody likes, and we’ve invested enough in rail transit..that counts as a down payment for getting federal money to do a more comprehensive citywide system that includes more expensive forms of rail transit.

I also like Matt’s thinking! Practical, no..but an impressive thought, yes. I think one thing that’s happening off the radar that might impress Matt is the mile-long peace park underway along NW 10th, same area. The C2S park should be a mile long, but it will only be 3 or 4 blocks wide..that is still plenty expansive enough to do some very very impressive things.

A real, fully operational and multimodal transit system is really the one thing that OKC could build that would have the most public benefit. The downtown trolleys were a terrible idea in the first place and have been poorly implemented. They need to be scrapped. I think the proposal for a streetcar loop and commuter rail is sensible, and that it should be augmented with an improved bus system. Why have a huge convention center if there’s no way to move visitors around our city? And as for no one using public transit in OKC, I use it and I can tell you why no one else does. Our system sucks. It’s that simple. Build a good transit system and people will use it.

When considering some of these projects, I believe we should keep in mind the difference between up-front capital costs (funded by MAPS 3) and potential ongoing operating losses (requiring funding from an as-of-yet unspecified source). For example, many convention centers generate ongoing operating losses after they are built. Large mass transit projects generally (always?) generate ongoing operating losses. We need to be careful that some might think MAPS 3 is “buying the house” when all it might really be doing is “making the down payment” — and leaving us to find additional tax sources to make good on the mortgage.

Well OKC’s current convention center turns a pretty big profit for us. Last year OKC experienced the largest growth in convention business in the NATION. There are so many conventions that come to OKC because they’re loyal to us that really need more space than we have at the present, and so many more that would like to come and see what the rave reviews are all about, but we don’t have facilities that are even close to being big enough for them. It’s not as if this convention center won’t be bringing in business.. even if there are still operating cost losses, I would not worry about that because the taxes collected from the millions of visitors that would be brought through our city would more than recoup those losses. The intangible benefits of increased name recognition, better image, more national prominence, and being more attractive to corporate relocations really has to just about seal the deal in my opinion.

The new convention center must have an accompaning number of new hotel rooms to stay in balance. The Cox Center didn’t get fully utilized until the number of acceptable downtown hotel rooms came on line.

True.

All core to shore. Public transit should be looked at 10 years from now when we truly see the fruits of the MAPS 3 labor. Dont bite off more than we can chew and take care of the most important thing right now which is, the I-40 facelift, core to shore, and the new convention center. Then and only then when the steady stream of new money is being pumped into our local economy and thousands of new jobs are being created can we start to invest in a ferociously expensive transit system that may not get much use outside of
Friday and Saturday night.

Bob you’re right on track, you have to have an oven to bake a cake. We have to have the reasons to go downtown before building the mass transit.

Are you blind to all of the reasons to go downtown right now?

Joe, I hate to break it to you, but downtown is doing very well right now. There are a lot of businesses in downtown, art museums and galleries, there are huge events going on each night that bring thousands of people in, there is the Ford Center and Bricktown Ballpark still (they haven’t gone anywhere) and the neighborhoods around downtown are filling up with residential development. Joe..when was the last time that you were in downtown?

“We have to have the reasons to go downtown before building mass transit.” What more reasons are you looking for? There are probably close to 100 restaurants once you figure up each downtown district. There are shops galore. Parks and recreation. There are huge events each night. Near 50,000 people work there each day. I think 10,000 people go to church in downtown. 20,000 people go to see the Thunder play every other night during basketball season. Are you for real that we all need more reasons to go downtown??

Nick, I’ve lived in several large cities. The last time I was in the downtown area was last Wednesday. I hate to break it to you, but you really have no idea how expensive a transit system is. When I was working in DC before I moved back the state of Virginia (Not DC, or Maryland included) spent 500,000 dollars on the inauguration of president Obama. The DC area is asking for 10 BILLION dollars to renovate their metro system. Not to make it…to renovate it.

Now I “hate to break it to you” but public transportation does not pay for itself with passenger fees. Large cities utilize public transportation as an investment in their infrastructure and economy, but only because there is a large return on the investment to get people into the city. I was in OKC for the big 12 mens tournament on a Tuesday and even with such a large event there was no one in Bricktown. I know people in Oklahoma are excited about the progress that’s been made in the city but you have to be realistic. OKC’s human traffic in and outside the city is nothing even close to the a Houston, Dallas, Kansas City or even San Antonio. To have public transportation it needs to be an absolute necessity and let’s be honest here, OKC’s motor traffic is pretty tame. Not only that but there are still parking lot vacancies in the city, it’s not difficult to get into the city and not hard to get out. Sure you have a few 20 somethings that have a few too many to drink and decide to drive home but the volume of people needed to ride the system to make it effective is huge. Unless there are people in the streets of Bricktown every single night of the week and we have a huge concert every night of the week and maintain the NBA there is no point for a public light rail system. It works in places I lived like DC and NYC because there are several million people that live within such a small proximity. Dont get me wrong I’m on Oklahoma native, and am back here for the time being but the local leaders need to be careful not to bite off more than they can chew, or all this will comes to a screeching halt.

Right now there isn’t a problem with parking or even getting downtown…if it’s not broke dont fix it. OKC needs an identity, core to shore should be at the forefront of any initiative, that project is going to be what pushes for a public transit. C2S I think, doubles the traffic to the downtown area a day, quadruples the housing, and the Lord only knows how many new businesses will make their way downtown as well. That is when OKC becomes a “big league” city, when we have to deal with “big league” problems.

Build a new convention center and convert the old center into a large tax exempt movie production studio. A large building like the GM plant could have been used unless the noise in the area was to great. This would help create a new industry and bring thousands of new creative jobs. May even lure some movie producers from California to move here with there equipment.