Comments on: Robert Moses vs. Jane Jacobs

By: slackmeyer

slackmeyer — Sun, 15 Mar 2009 20:48:30 +0000

Dennis, thanks so much for being willing to expand this discussion. I wanted to draw you out and give readers another viewpoint – and I’m very happy that you did just that.
My only bias is that I appreciate that the innercity has strong voices like your’s and Randy Floyd’s to ensure that both sides of the debate are heard.

By: Dennis

Dennis — Sun, 15 Mar 2009 20:42:07 +0000

Steve, I’m glad you’re able to maintain your objectivity; otherwise half your readers would be enemies! (And I don’t want to know which side I’d be on.)

Personally I don’t think it’s wrong to knock down an old worn out home to make way for a modern one… in SoSA. It is wrong in Heritage Hills or other neighborhoods with a recognized homogeneous character. SoSA is a hodge-podge mixed use neighborhood with no redeeming architectural character, other than its eclecticity. (Well, there are some pretty cool new houses that are beginning to set the tone for a “recognized character.”)

Wearing my Robert Moses hat I say: “Fire up the bull dozers! The displaced occupants will survive just fine…” Putting on my Jane Jacob’s bonnet I say: “There’s really not much value to preserve… let’s be considerate to the poor souls who just received a windfall profit on their real estate.”

So the short answer is: No it’s not wrong; The displaced occupants may be inconvenienced, but not unduly; And it IS desirable… (Please remember that this answer is in context of SoSA, not Crown Heights.)

By: slackmeyer

slackmeyer — Sun, 15 Mar 2009 17:04:36 +0000

Dennis, those are my questions as well. And here is where I have the unfair advantage in this discussion: my role is to ask the provocative questions of community leaders and advocates like yourself. My role here is to get people thinking about the larger ramifications of changes underway, whether they are good, bad, or in that gray area in between good and bad. And what I admire about you Dennis is that you’ve not shied away from challenging the status quo and introducing a new way of thinking.
So, I’m bouncing back your questions at you.
The St. Anthony knock-downs, we both know, were not related to the desire to build modern housing. Instead, it’s a neighborhood clean up effort – something I’m not saying is good or bad, though it has certainly been questioned by the likes of Michael Smith and others in your neighborhood.
So, back to you…
Is it wrong to knock down an old worn out home to make way for a modern home? Do the displaced occupants suffer? Is it unjust? Undesired? If so, why?
Oh, by the way, I’d be happy to hear from Michael and others on these questions as well. Don’t let Dennis be the only brave guy out there online.

By: Dennis

Dennis — Sun, 15 Mar 2009 16:40:23 +0000

Yes, that will most likely be the result (knock-down for modern)… But to date it hasn’t happend. Were the St.-A knock-downs motivated by knock-down for modern?

I’ll side-step your question with a more important one: is it wrong to knock down for modern? Do the displaced occupants suffer? Is it unjust? …undesired? If so, why?

By: Steve

Steve — Sun, 15 Mar 2009 16:21:35 +0000

“So far not one house has been torn down!”
How do you define the neighborhood’s boundaries – wouldn’t the homes torn down in the past two years by St. Anthony as being within SoSA/Cottage District?
Defining appropriate … ah yes, that’s the million dollar question here, isn’t it?
I don’t know – it’s not for me to say.
But I do still wonder – isn’t it inevitable with the pattern we’re seeing in your neighborhood that as the best empty lots are built up, someone is going to want to tear down one of the older worn out homes to make way for a newer structure?

By: Dennis

Dennis — Sun, 15 Mar 2009 04:24:20 +0000

Of course the existing housing in SoSA (rehabilitated or not) is fine housing for those already living in them, or others in the future regardless of status.

So far not one house has been torn down! I for one am not advocating or discouraging that they be replaced with architectural wonders, or anything else… I’m only advocating freedom of design. I can not control the property values and the possibility that market forces will transform the neighborhood. I’m just along for the ride, and will be content wherever it leads!

I think Jane Jacob’s observation of “chaos & confusion” is alive and well in SoSA, and is pretty darn cool!

Now let me talk out of the other side of my mouth: I say “freedom of design,” but I really do want some appropriate controls on density, scale, view corridors, and etc… (However, I don’t want controls on materials, color, orientation, openings, etc…)

How do you define “appropriate?” That’s the political question du jour…

This is an important and difficult subject, and I think some productive dialog will result from your thoughtful post.

By: slackmeyer

slackmeyer — Sun, 15 Mar 2009 03:21:05 +0000

Michael, I’ve not seen that video. I’ll watch it in the morning.

By: Steve

Steve — Sun, 15 Mar 2009 00:53:02 +0000

Fair answer. Not meaning to offend, just spark some discussion. One thing that occurs to me as we go through all this is that much of the housing coming out downtown isn’t going to be affordable for the folks working as servers at Bricktown restaurants or as clerks at the hotels or secretaries in the corporate offices.
Are the older homes in SoSA that are being torn down an example of housing that maybe, with some fixing, might have been suitable for these folks?

By: Dennis

Dennis — Sat, 14 Mar 2009 23:28:45 +0000

Steve,
Obviously there’s a place for the “working class” in SoSA, but because I subscribe to capitalism rather than socialism I don’t know what kind of “effort” can be made to ensure that the neighborhood doesn’t transform into something else… I’m open to suggestions, but I’ll resist plastic realities.

By: Chad

Chad — Sat, 14 Mar 2009 20:48:19 +0000

“The Death and Life…” should be required reading for every person who takes on a role in revitalizing or developing urban areas. I was lucky enough to be given a copy more than a decade ago, and it’s pretty dogeared at this point. Thanks for shedding some light on her work, Steve.