Boo Hoo

Most people I know in real life who are from Tulsa tend to think OKC seems cooler/bigger than Tulsa. Contrasted with about 5 or 6 years ago when most people in OKC thought Tulsa seemed cooler/bigger than OKC.

I tend to not take a position, but OKC is much much further along in its urban redevelopment

When I (briefly) relocated from OKC to Tulsa, all my Tulsa coworkers asked me “Why!?!” My opinion is that most Tulsan’s looked up to Oklahoma City.

Nobody is posting because nobody cares what Tulsa thinks…lol.

You’re surprised, Steve? That’s just the way it is, sad to say. But, it’s not universal … there are Tulsan’s who like and admire Oklahoma City and what it has done. I personally know 3 or 4 of them.

For your readers who’d like to see for themselves, here’s the link at the Tulsa World:

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=12&articleid=20081203_12_0_OLHMIY83394

I am a native Tulsan and have been here for way, way too long. My son is a recent OU grad living in OKC and likes its amenities including the Bricktown and surrounding clubs/restaurants. But he loves Tulsa as well for its convenience and beauty. OKC has simply overcome the whiners, and negatives better than we have. Could have a lot to do with the leadership or simply being close to major universities.

NOTE: I never post on the Tulsa World logs. They are the critical mass of ignorance in the city. Bates, Arnett and TulsaNow represent more informed, civil discourse. That said, Tulsa might as well be in Kansas based on the share of tax dollars migrating back to the community. My understanding is we’re a tax donor to the rest of the state. You have to pay to get here and pay to leave here. You guys get the better toys. Of course there is animosity.

What? I said “great for them”.

Yes, our skyline is better than yours.

I am not from Tulsa, but live here now and have for many years and think my “outsider” perspective may be advantageous. As a Tulsan I admire Oklahoma City. The entire downtown area has been made very tourist (and resident) friendly. The capital area is as nice as any in the nation. Anytime I’m near Norman I have to drive by the campus. The Express range, the zoo, the arboretum, the ballpark and of course the memorial.

I am a Tulsan and I admire the vitality of Oklahoma City. I hope Devon keeps doing well and you get a nice addition to your skyline. I hope the Thunder’s new coach gets them in the right direction and they are a financial success. I hope the economy really is “recession proof.”

More than that – what’s good for Oklahoma City is good for Tulsa. We compliment each other and the competition drives our leaders to do better. Tulsa and Oklahoma City doing well is NOT mutually exclusive. Portland, Albuquerque, Des Moines, Wichita, all mid-sezed cities that can and do serve as good examples Tulsa can follow – in addition to OKC.

Yes I get jealous as the city down the turnpike picks itself up and Tulsa seemingly lags behind. That isn’t Oklahoma Cities fault and I don’t blame you for doing well. That would be pointless. And yes, some people in Tulsa are bitter at OKC’s success… but not most. I believe the sources reference, particularly TulsaNow, have made it clear that most people think OKC success is a positive for Tulsa.

HOWEVER -

There does appear to b a real gripe on the benefit of tax expenditures in the two cities. As the capital city OKC will get more, but the common perception is you get more than the fair share. Roads, hospitals, government jobs (yes, in some states not all government jobs are in the capital), entertainment subsidies. All these things Tulsa helps pay for and we feel we do not get a fair return.

For instance, the Thunder DID NOT qualify for the quality jobs act as the article flippantly suggests. It had to be modified to allow the subsidy of the NBA in Oklahoma City. Tulsa’s Maytag plant did not receive as much money for 1200 jobs and a $130 Million dollar manufacturing plant as the NBA receives for ~100 jobs in OKC. The “qualification” for the “jobs” is a farce, merely the easiest way to get state subsidies for the NBA. The merit of which is the subject of another debate, but pretending the NBA is another provider of jobs akin to a manufacturing plant is absurd.

It is a simple fact that OKC is a net consumer of State money and much of that money comes from Tulsa. The NBA exemplifies that – the State will subsidize the NBA to the tune of $60mil in OKC and Tulsa has to beg to get a public hospital and ultimately had to step up and pay for it ourselves. I don’t care if OKC has an NBA team (not a fan, not opposed) just like I don’t care if OSU has a new stadium – so long as I’m not paying for it my concerns are elsewhere. I’d complain just as loud if Oklahoma City sent their tax money to the state and they paid for a new baseball stadium for Tulsa’s Drillers (OK, maybe not AS loud but I would certainly yield the point to you).

Health department need to save money? Close down Tulsa’s medical examiner.

I-44 in Tulsa the most dangerous road? We’ll get to it in 10-20 years.

OU Medical Center near more funding? Not a problem as we don’t have to fund a hospital in Tulsa anyway.

All road leading to Tulsa toll roads? Free interstates and tax payer funded rail to Oklahoma City.

Rail to Tulsa or Wichita? Either one is fine.

Forgive us for feeling provincial. My gripe is not with Oklahoma City for doing well. It is not with the government of Oklahoma City wanting all from the state that they can get, it is their job to make OKC the best they can. My gripe is with the representatives of Tulsa and the government of the city for failing to look out for our interests. And yes, I admit to feeling slighted.

I may be off base with my perception. But if OKC perceived that they were over funding Tulsa I’m sure a level of angst would arise. I’m not trying to convince you that I am right, I readily admit that I may be wrong. I am merely trying to help those in Oklahoma City to understand the underpinnings of the perceived resentment.

Feel free to share your thoughts and see what other Tulsans think (not a plug, just the most responsive forum I’ve found in the community):
http://tulsanow.org/forum/

- Jesse

Jesse,
As the oklahoman reported a few weeks back, go study the Arkansas River Development project, the multi-BILLION dollar government expenditure in Tulsa and eastern Oklahoma that Sen. Kerr got passed back in the 70’s. A staggering, what we would now call “bailout-sized” expenditure to make the Arkansas River navigatble all the way to the TULSA (not Oklahoma) port of Catoosa. The government basically built an entire shipping industry for Tulsa, not to mention providing a water way for huge aircraft parts, etc. to get back and forth for the Tulsa aerospace industry. Tulsa has benefited from this with Thousands of jobs, and lots of $$ coming to Tulsa and Tulsa County with shipping fees, etc.

Everytime Tulsans see a barge bringing a jet engine to Tulsa, or wheat going to New Orleans from “one of the largest, most inland river-ports in the United States” (www.tulsaport.com) they should think “tax benefit at work”.

I love Tulsa and Tulsans. My only beef . . . they have short memories.

To above Tulsa posters, good responses all.

Jesse, I lurk at tulsanow.org every few weeks because I like to see what’s going on there. I rarely post, though, since it’s not my town (or business). But, on the occasions that I have and even if being complimentary to Tulsa (as I generally am … the Tulsa River tax would have been dramatic in its impact, imo, and I was hoping that it would pass), I received the same types of replies that Steve mentioned in his original article.

I have no interest in participating in that type of discourse — it is wholly pointless and counterproductive. Steve’s thesis, I think, is that Okie Citians are, in the main, happier when developments, etc., occur in Tulsa which are exciting, but that the mirror of that is less true if not just plain petty from a Tulsa perspective. Too many of us have been around for much too long (I am 65) to know that for such a long time Tulsa seemed to consider itself an island to itself. I won’t develop that theme, but I could.

Tulsa is a beautiful city that I fully enjoy visiting and the new arena is 1st class. I’m hoping that it brings good things, and I don’t just mean concerts. A NHL team would be very nice, for example. The Philbrook and Gilcrease are amazing. Tulsa’s rolling hills are a delight. It has much of its older beauty remaining in its downtown, rich with history, and the newer buildings make a beautiful skyline. As an Oklahoman, I’m proud of both cities and want both to do well.

I’m not in a position to know whether state revenues are distributed equitably (whatever that means) but I’d suppose that, regardless, both cities largely subsidize much of the remainder of the state, as far as tax dollar distributions are concerned. Not a problem. We are all Okies.

As far as Oklahoma City’s medical center type developments, Oklahoma City paved a good part of that way by city planning and by its own tax dollars with Maps (I) and it wasn’t from state coffers in the least. Ditto developments on the “Oklahoma River,” Bricktown, downtown library and learning center, fairground improvements, public schools (“Maps for Kids”) and, most recently, the Ford Center improvements. It’s not like we have our hand out. We have helped ourselves and our city leadership has been great. Another great example is what Oklahoma City did with the Skirvin. A good example of how one member of the Tulsa business community helped, too, is the conversion of the Colcord Building to the Colcord Hotel by Paul Coury who did such a fine job with Tulsa’s Hotel Ambassador.

Jeffrey,

I was not in Tulsa at that time, but I understand it to be so. I know full well the navigation channel was a giant federal project from Oklahoma and Arkansas. But in the light of this discussion I note several major differences. Please keep my former comments in mind as I am attempting to let you know the general feeling down the turnpike – not convince you I am correct:

1) First, and foremost, this was an infrastructure program administered by the US Army Corps of engineers. Just as the Interstate System greatly benefited OKC by making it America’s Crossroads, Tulsa was benefited by having a water transportation network brought to our door. AND, just as the ancillary benefit to Tulsa of having I-44 come through town has a profound impact on our economy the ability to ship goods out of the state by barge has a regional and state wide impact. The channel was certainly valuable to the economy of the region and nation as a whole and Tulsa (Catoosa) was the logical termination (65% of state exports, has water…). Just as OKC made a logical crossroads for interstate highways.

2) Second, the navigation channel is a distribution of Federal, not State funds. I did not complain about Tinker AFB being an undue subsidy or the numerous other ongoing Federal expenditures in OKC (FAA, National Weather Service, IRS) that make OKC recession proof. he Kerr-McGee navigation channel is a distribution of Federal funds. Whatever our entire Washington delegation did to assist the project, it was not primarily a siphon of State funds from one region of Oklahoma to another. While appreciative of the investment and readily admitting the aid to our economy (see, e.g., the Whirlpool Plant mentioned above) such federal expenditures are not germane to the issues I raised.

3) Third, I draw a bright distinction between public financing for infrastructure and public financing for entertainment. A navigation channel will encourage industrial development and facility the efficient transacting of commerce from Oklahoma to the nation and the world. An NBA franchise will largely serve to shuffle entertainment money around the OKC area. An infrastructure project is an economic investment, an NBA team simply is not a similarly situated asset.

That does not disparage the merit of entertainment to a community. It certainly will help the image of OKC, perhaps the State as a whole. It may help attract new young people, vibrant companies. For sure it will help circulate entertainment dollars in OKC that may have gone to Dallas and it will help your already encouraging downtown area.

BUT, by and large, the money given to the Thunder is money that would have otherwise circulated in the Oklahoma City economy. The millions paid to players would have gone to small business owners. All economic studies suggest professional sports franchises are not generators of wealth for an economy but in general remove money from it while demanding greater public subsidies.

That is why entertainment was specifically excluded from the Quality Jobs Act.

4) And finally, I fully acknowledge the benefit Tulsa has received from tax incentives. Our State and federal highways, our airport, our navigation channel, Keystone Dam Power Station, the Air National Guard station. I would be a fool to pretend Tulsa does not benefit from many programs Federal and State (as noted by the Quality Jobs Program recipient Maytag).

I also believe the Oklahoma City and the State of Oklahoma want to see Tulsa succeed. Your perspective is probably similar to mine – why benefits Tulsa will probably have a benefit to Oklahoma City. I merely perceive the allocation of benefits is Oklahoma City first, other areas second, and Tulsa third.

I stand by my declaration that funding professional entertainment as “quality jobs” is a farce. That seems to be what has led to the recent uptick in bitterness. If OKC got $60mil in funding for a new water treatment plant, or to airport freight service, or other economic infrastructure I do not believe we would be having this discussion.

But thank you for pointing out that Tulsa does in fact benefit from subsidies on many different levels.

Doug Dawg:

I agree that the revitalization of OKC was by the strength of good leadership and of the community coming together with a long term goal. I am not intending to take anything away from what has been accomplished. I had relatives flee OKC in the dark days of the 1980’s and when we took a day trip to OKC from Tulsa when they visited they were amazed at how it had turned around.

My comments are not meant to disparage the progress OKC has made, merely to shed light on the difference of opinion up the Turnpike.

- Jesse

ps. Go Tulsa Golden Hurricane and go Oklahoma Sooners! 2/2 conference championships in D-IA sounds fine with.

Mr. Lackmeyer wrote, “Today I had a story about how the NBA is drawing new restaurants and clubs into Bricktown. The story was reprinted at http://www.tulsaworld.com and quickly drew sarcastic and negative responses.”

First, it’s not about you. Almost every article at the Tulsa World site receives similar responses, sadly, even a few death announcements. The site is overrun with hit-and-run posters, flamers, racists, etc. For some reason, the World tolerates them. Go figure.

Second, it’s not about you. You’ve been thoroughly schooled by Jesse so I won’t retread. Simply, Tulsa is a donor city and we’ve got good reason to be upset about it.

And finally, maybe it is about you. Tulsa’s “obsessed” with OKC? Get over yourself, fancypants.

I can really start to appreciate Jesse’s thoughtfulness about Tulsa until someone like Everett comes over and proclaims Tulsa to be a “donor city” and they’re mad about it.

Lets try this again. Tulsa got a federal bailout in the 1960-70s with the Kerr/ McClellen Navigation system which was basically a Panama Canal-type project to bring the shipping industry to Tulsa. This opened up all sorts of new industries to Tulsa that brought lots of jobs, a new revenue stream, and allowed Tulsa the capacity to keep certain aerospace industries. This was more than just basic “infrastructure”. When the government builds a road you and I can drive on it. Dare I say few if any of us will ever chug on a Tugboat from Catoosa pushing a barge of grain or a wing for a 757. This is industry THAT WILL NEVER LEAVE. This is different from Tinker, that could close in the next BRAC allignment, or the FAA Center, which by the way is shrinking and may not have a long life remaining in OKC. The channel will always be there. No one will move or close down those locks on the Arkansas. It will outlast recessions, the price of oil, even the Thunder.

The problem though is that this happened so long ago that most Tulsans have completely forgotten it. They think its just always been there. And as they beat their chest about how big a “donor city” they are, they forget they big donation that came their way. To argue over state vs. federal tax help with this is irrelevent. Tax help is tax help, period. OKC didn’t get one dime of that money, nor should they have. But it does Tulsans no good just to simply forget it.

It all comes down to location. Tulsa became a very wealthy town because its location was close to the Glen pool. OKC got the capital because of its location in the center of the state and on the railroad line. Amtrak started back to OKC because it was on a direct rail line to the closest Amtrak Urban hub (Ft. Worth) and because OKC’s population is larger than Tulsa’s, giving it the better opportunity to maintain ridership. Oklahoma had no rail service before that yet was paying into the Amtrak fund. Nichols was just trying to get an Amtrak toehold in OK with the hopes to expand it later. Just today the OK legistature passed a measure sending millions to the OSU Health Center. The BOK was built just like the Ford Center was. And though the Tulsa team (the 66ers?) doesn’t command the salary that the Thunder do, the Thunder organization does have a payroll in Tulsa.

Again – I love Tulsa and Tulsans. But anyone regardless of city that claims their place to be a “donor city” really hasn’t done their homework. Tulsa is no different.

The people who throw out the Quality Jobs incentive as some evidence of how Tulsa (or anywhere else for that matter) is having to dig into its pockets to support NBA basketball in Oklahoma City obviously don’t understand the Quality Jobs act. This incentive is paid on a one-to-one basis equal to the amount of income tax that the employer’s employees pay into the state coffers. This means it is revenue-neutral. Sure, the employer is being paid a rebate from the state level, but the money to pay for the rebate would not be there if the employer didn’t first pay it to their employees. Sure, the state could have declined to provide the incentive, but it was a part of the original pitch to the team and to the NBA to relocate, and the team likely couldn’t have come here without it. It was a major portion of the business model that allowed the numbers to work for the team to come here. If the team had not come here, it would not have made Tulsans or other Oklahomans a dime richer. We wouldn’t have a team, but we also wouldn’t have a penny more in state coffers.

In fact, the Quality Jobs incentive is capped, so whatever payroll taxes exceed that cap are kept by the state, actually making the state wealthier than if the team had not located here at all.

Factor in the sales tax that is generated by meals, hotel rooms and items purchased by fans attending games, and the state is even FURTHER in the black on the deal. The part-time Ford Center employees who are working on game nights? Yep, they pay state income tax on their earnings. Oh, and the people who provide services downstream to the team and staff? Mmmm hmmm. The realtors, car salesmen, clothing salespeople, lawyers, waiters and waitresses who attend to these people while they are here? They too pay taxes on their earnings.

Tulsans and other Oklahomans aren’t digging into their pockets to pay for the Quality Jobs incentives, but are instead actually wealthier for the team being here.

Contrast that revenue-neutral or revenue-positive scenario with what Oklahoma City residents and visitors did to bring a team here: they paid a sales tax of nearly $400 million for MAPS (which included $90 million for the arena), ultimately followed by another $125 million for arena improvements. They (the city, plus private citizens) gambled by providing a guarantee of millions of dollars to the Hornets when they were displaced, just to get an NBA audition. Fortunately that worked out, and the city actually made money on the deal. OKC residents bought season tickets and supported that team mightily for two seasons. Private citizens of Oklahoma City went out and spent $350 million to purchase an NBA team. They spent other monies numbering in the tens of millions for legal fees, settlement and relocation. OKC-based sponsors for both the Hornets and the Thunder forked over at least $15 million in the past three seasons played here, that I can think of off the top of my head. And AGAIN OKC’s citizens (and yes, other Oklahomans) purchased tickets like crazy, and have shown no dropoff in support, even in the face of disappointing play. The total ticket price for a full arena for a full season of NBA play is probably more than $30 million per season.

This city and its citizens have spent the better part of a BILLION dollars in the quest of “major league status.” And they never asked for a dime of help from Tulsans, or from the state, except for a (puny by comparison), revenue-neutral contribution from the Quality Jobs act. An incentive provided by the state of Oklahoma and all of its citizens, not just citizens of Tulsa, for the record. People who throw Quality Jobs out as an example of how Tulsa is being screwed by OKC are either misinformed or dishonest.

Now, regarding the OKC-Tulsa relationship, here’s a story that happened to me a couple of weeks ago. First, I love Tulsa. I have since I was a kid. I’ve had family there, and visit every chance I can get. I love Brookside. I love the Philbrook. I love Utica Square. I love Cherry Street. I like what I see happening in Brookside. Pretty much every OKC resident I know says the same type of stuff, if Tulsa ever comes up.

I love Tulsa a lot, despite the fact that most times I hear Tulsans talking about OKC, they are talking about what an ugly, flat, dry, treeless, industrial, blue-collar, tax-parasitic city I live in. I still haven’t figured what is stuck in the craw of Tulsans, but I love their city.

So a couple of weeks ago, my boss came in from out of state for a few days. He loves OKC, and has owned businesses here for a number of years, despite having never lived here. I had some business in Tulsa, and invited him along. He was anxious to visit, having never been there, and I was anxious to be his tour guide and show off another great city in the state, one of my favorite anywhere. By chance, an old friend an former neighbor of his now lives in Tulsa, and we decided to have dinner with him and his wife. It was a true pleasure. Very nice folks. They love Tulsa, despite being from another part of the country and only having lived there for a few short years.

The one and only sour note during our visit was when the friend, who knew I was from OKC, started describing his historic neighborhood. He said something to the effect of “we live in this great, tree-lined, historic neighborood a few blocks from here…” and then paused, looked at me, and said “I’m sorry…” in a somewhat sarcastic apology for having mentioned that Tulsa has historic, tree-lined neighborhoods when OKC does not. I stopped him, and asked if he had ever actually BEEN to Oklahoma City. He said he had, for a visit to the capitol. So his entire impression of Oklahoma City was of a highway trip into town, the state capitol complex, and what he had heard from fellow Tulsans.

That would be like me basing my view of Tulsa on the shot ESPN just showed of a dirty-looking refinery on the Arkansas river, in their coverage of the Tulsa-ECU game I am watching. Who picked that shot anyway? I’m pulling for Tulsa, by the way.

As he was describing the neighborhood, by the way, my boss had looked at me and said “that sounds like Crown Heights, or Heritage Hills, or Nichols Hills…” He knew, despite having never lived here, that OKC has LOTS of great old neighborhoods, architecture and wealth, and water, and yes, even trees.

This exchange prompted a quick, tense conversation where we discussed how Tulsans and OKC residents feel about each other. I mentioned that most of the time I hear Tulsans talking about OKC, it’s to hate on it, and that there seems to be an unhealthy obsession. He then said “well, when OKC residents talk about Tulsa…” starting to say that the same was true here. My boss, however, stopped him short. “They don’t,” he said. “I’ve done business there for around a decade, and they simply don’t even talk about Tulsa much at all.” That pretty much sums it up.

After that somewhat tense exchange, we had a great dinner, and I made a couple of new friends in T-town, friends I’m happy to have. But, like I said, I’ll still never totally understand Tulsans.

Chad said, “Just today the OK legistature passed a measure sending millions to the OSU Health Center.”

Glad you brought that up, Chad. Unlike the capital city, Tulsa does not have a state-funded hospital. Never have, and if the legislature is left to their own devices, we never will.

OSUMC was due to close it’s doors at the end of the year, but for a collaboration between the city, county, Kaiser Family Foundation, St. John’s Hospital, and St. Francis Hospital. Though appreciated, state-funding is a relatively small and diminishing piece of the equation. It’s nowhere near the $60 mill a year you get for your public hospital.

The crises was averted for now, thank god. But this is how it goes in this state: OKC gets a state-funded public hospital, Tulsa has to cobble together a facsimile using private funding and legislative table scraps.

It’s easy to get upset, and justifiable.

First off I will admit that I am one of those people who is quick to “tease’ OKC. Its often just in good humor on my part. Occasionally I compliment them, occasionally I rag on them. I think its good to sometimes be competitive and to try to out do each other on different points.

From this end of the turnpike I do sometimes get envious of what is happening in and around downtown OKC… I think part of that is that when you live here in Tulsa, developments and such seem to go so slowly and you dont notice that we too are improving. Though a bit behind, there is a lot of stuff going on around town, just not perhaps as concentrated as OKC.

Plus, I think Tulsans should be proud of the choices they have made. We havent passed a MAPS and gotten as many “fancy, flashy toys”. BUT we have spent some bucks on some important neccessities. I think TCC is one of the largest JR Colleges in this region of the country. We Tulsans pay for most of that. We have also decided to spend some money on getting other educational facilities and campuses going in Tulsa ( I count Tulsa county when comparing Tulsa to OKC, for even everything in Tulsa county would be smaller in land size thant he city of OKC)… OSU Tulsa, OU Tulsa, NSU Broken Arrow, Langston, Tulsa Tech… Those are fantastic additions to our city. Not flashy things like a canal, but something to be equally proud of in my opinion. These things will pay off in time.

Though this does bring up one of Tulsas gripes lol. Up until recently Tulsa was one of the largest cities in the US without a publicly funded, graduate university. OKC has had the teaching hospital and the nearby college in Norman. NSU Tulsa is the same distance from downtown Tulsa as the college in Norman is from downtown OKC. I cant help but think how things would have been different here if so many people, for so long, didnt have to move away in order to advance in their careers by taking graduate courses, or just finish college in general. Had a friend not long ago that had to consider leaving Tulsa, his friends, his job, an ailing mother, home, etc. because there werent the available graduate courses anywhere nearby. I have had friends who in the past, and even today to some extent, who in order to move up in their company or career needed to take certain courses… they werent available in or around Tulsa. So they ended up moving their careers to other cities that did have nearby colleges. Companies have often left for the same reason.

Recently we have wanted to expand and grow our fledgling new universities and heck just keep open the teaching hospital and medical center. When I go to the Medical COMPLEX in OKC and to the college in Norman, I see many buildings, programs, endowments, etc. with Tulsans names on them. When Tulsa was doing well, even though we had needs, Tulsans chipped in and helped build those colleges and the medical campus. Doubt any OKC person would even have a clue to how much we have given to those things, or give a hoot. Where are the wealthy people of OKC chipping in to build stuff here in Tulsa to help us out when we need it? Reminds me a bit of that dinner conversation described above when the person in OKC mentioned…. ” and they simply don’t even talk about Tulsa much at all.” That pretty much sums it up.” Indeed they dont. How many people in OKC have donated a building, a program, to a museum, a hospital, to the needy and poor etc. etc. here? I remember many wealthy Tulsans and even average people donating to the History Museum there in OKC. Sure its the state museum. But where were was anyone in OKC when we were struggling to build and save the History Museum here?

Its seems we have to fight tooth and nail for everything. Plus the people of OKC dont ever acknowledge our contributions, if they think of us at all. Plus they rarely, if ever, seem to reach out and donate to or support us. Yea it sounds whiny. But still there it is. Each thing may be something small and seem to be no big deal. But they keep adding up, year after year, decade after decade and you start to feel like the youngest sibling who gets the hand me downs. Yet, we do all right here.

In the end, I think it would be nice, on occasion, to hear a thank you for our contributions there. To have the people of OKC occasionally think about us, to donate and lend a hand to some of the things we care about or need as we have done in the past for them. Not complain that we are whining lol.

Interesting discussion. And Everett… “fancy pants”? Really? I didn’t know anyone used such a groovy word anymore.

Everett says: “Chad said, ‘Just today the OK legistature passed a measure sending millions to the OSU Health Center.”

Glad you brought that up, Chad. Unlike the capital city, Tulsa does not have a state-funded hospital. Never have, and if the legislature is left to their own devices, we never will…”

Everett, you quoted the wrong person entirely. That wasn’t me.

William,
No one from OKC donated ANY money to the “Oklahoma Aquarium,” built in the Tulsa suburb of Jenks? You probably need to do a little research there. I bet you would find several OKC corporate donors on their list.

As far as Tulsa not having a publicly funded graduate university, again another history lesson is in order. When the Oklahoma legislature was looking for a place to put a land-grant university, several places turned them flat down, including the Sand Springs/Tulsa area. They finally started the school in Payne County that would eventually become Oklahoma State University. Tulsa (more accurately the Tulsa area) definitely had a chance to have that school nearby, but for whatever reason, they decided not to pursue it. Who knows the reasoning – things were different 110+ years ago and they may have had a perfectly legit reason why they decided no. But its not as if Tulsa was just intentionally shut out of the Public University Picture.

Tulsans are funny sometimes. They brag about how self-sufficient they are, then complain when no one helps them. Can’t have it both ways folks. I think the powers that be in Tulsa are clueing into that, judging on the legislature finally passing funds for the OSU Medical Center. On that issue Tulsa I wholeheartly agree. It’s a complete travesty that an adequately-funded public hospital has been missing in Tulsa. That problem needs a permanent governmental fix. Hopefully this is a start in the right direction.

OK, it looks like this discussion isn’t going to take us any further along in each city understanding the other. And that’s sad.

Jeffrey, it’s very unlikely that the Oklahoma territorial legislature had any interest in establishing a college in a different territory. In 1890, Oklahoma Territory consisted of the old Unassigned Lands which were opened by land run on April 22, 1889. At that time, Tulsa was in Indian Territory, a small town that began when the Frisco Railroad came in 1882. Tulsa wasn’t incorporated until 1898. Sand Springs didn’t even exist until 1908. The only other land-grant university in Oklahoma is Langston, which was founded in 1897, again before Tulsa was a part of Oklahoma. Territorial history determined where many of our colleges are located, as did the politics of the first few years after statehood. By 1909, three more normal schools had been established, later to become Northeastern, Southeastern, and East Central. Tulsa was within the zone served by Northeastern.

William says: “Where are the wealthy people of OKC chipping in to build stuff here in Tulsa to help us out when we need it?”

Oklahoma City resident David Green, founder of Hobby Lobby, saved Oral Roberts University with a massive cash infusion, even though he had no prior affiliation with that university. Even if it’s a religious school, had ORU folded (which was looking quite likely), it would have had a tremendous impact on Tulsa.

Re: OSU Medical Center funding. Has it occurred to you that maybe this small, relatively poor state can’t afford to fund two public teaching hospitals to the effect of $60 million a year? On top of that, OSU’s “medical school” is not a real medical school, they teach Osteopathic Medicine, an outdated system of healing that is quickly going away.

Did you know that the OU School of Medicine has greatly expanded their presence at OU-Tulsa and will soon be launching a residency program in Internal Medicine? I bet you didn’t.

Good clarification Michael, I definitely was off on the area, I could have sworn it was closer to Tulsa, but again the point is made. Tulsa was not intentionally shut out of the university picture.

Not a real medical school, yet their students can still get accepted into MD residency programs. Some of the top specialists in this state are ODs.