Keiton Page: Where does he rank in Oklahoma State basketball history?
Pawnee's Keiton Page shoots a layup against Oklahoma Christian in the Class 2A boys state basketball championship on Saturday, March 8, 2008, at the State Fair Arena. BY SARAH PHIPPS, THE OKLAHOMAN
Two of my favorite days of a so-far 33-year career came on March 7-8, 2008. I spent both days at the Big House, State Fair Arena, watching the classes 2A through 4A high school state tournaments.
Part of the show was Pawnee’s Keiton Page. That Friday, he scored 42 points in an 84-52 rout of Oktaha. That Saturday, Page had 54 points and 13 assists in a 95-79 victory over Oklahoma Christian School that won Pawnee the state title.
Saturday, I thought I was back watching Pawnee. Page scored 40 points, only he didn’t do it against Oktaha, he did it against the Texas Longhorns. OSU got a 90-78 victory over the Longhorns that will be remembered for years to come.
And Page’s amazing production forces us to reconsider exactly where Page fits in Cowboy history.
Here’s the truth about Page: Most everything people say about him is wrong.
Detractors say he’s a one-dimensional player whose defensive liabilities completely counter whatever offense he provides. They say that on a better team, he would be a role player. Coming off the bench to bust zones or nail down games with his foul shooting.
Proponents, primarily excited television announcers but also even OSU coach Travis Ford, will talk about Page’s place as one of the all-time great Cowboys.
I can’t buy either one. Page is not a role player. He’s a heck of a ballplayer. He can score in a variety of ways; my favorite plays Saturday against Texas were his dribble penetrations into the lane, when he would pull up, fall away and sink a 10-footer over some long-armed Longhorn.
But neither is Page a star for the ages. I don’t know where Page ranks on the list of greatest Cowboys, but I know where he doesn’t rank. In the top 10 or top 20. Nothing against Page, but when I think of all-time great Cowboys, I think of Big Country and Byron Houston and Bob Kurland.
I think I could name 20 players greater than Page just since Eddie Sutton’s arrival in 1990.
Big Byron. Corey Williams. Big Country. Randy Rutherford. Brooks Thompson. Chianti Roberts. Adrian Peterson. Desmond Mason. Maurice Baker. Ivan McFarlin. Tony Allen. Joey Graham. John Lucas. Byron Eaton. James Anderson. There’s 15.
Then add in all the really good players like Sean Sutton, Joe Adkins, Mario Boggan, Marcus Dove, Melvin Sanders, Victor Williams, Fred Jonzen, Obi Muonelo, Doug Gottlieb, JamesOn Curry, Terrel Harris and Brett Robisch. Page is really good, but so were all those guys.
Then you’ve got some really good players from the 1980s, a few from the 1970s and the Henry Iba greats. Page probably is one of the 50 best Cowboys ever, but I don’t know that he would make the top-40 cut. It’s a pretty stout basketball tradition.
But now comes this 40-point game, which makes us look at things a little different. Forty points is a big deal. You score 20 in a game, that’s an accomplishment. Hard to score 20. You score 30, and it’s a whole new world. Role players don’t score 30. Score 40, and you’ve entered rare air.
Here are the OSU players in history who have scored at least 40 points in a game:
* Bob Kurland 58 vs. Saint Louis 1946
* Randy Rutherford 45 vs. Kansas 1995
* Arlen Clark 42 vs. Colorado 1959
* Ed Odom 41 vs. Texas-Pan American 1979
* JamesOn Curry 40 vs. Baylor 2007.
Clark was a very good player on good Henry Iba teams, though Clark didn’t make all-American. Kurland I assume you know about. If some of you young fans never saw Rutherford, pity. What a ballplayer for Eddie Sutton in the 1990s. Odom was a high-scoring forward on bad OSU teams. He averaged 24.2 points a game in 1979-80, still the school record.
And then we’ve got JamesOn Curry. Curry was not a role player. He was the sixth man as a freshman on Sutton’s great 2005 team, then Curry spent two years as the primary player (along with Boggan, at times) on mediocre OSU teams.
Was JamesOn Curry a better OSU player than Keiton Page is? Maybe. But I don’t think the answer is apparent.
Let’s go over to OU. See how many times someone has cracked 40 points for the Sooners. It’s happened 19 times, by 13 players. Not surprisingly, 16 of the 40-point games came in the high-scoring Billy Tubbs era.
Wayman Tisdale did it five times. Stacey King did it twice – King’s 48-point game against Nevada-Las Vegas in 1988-89 ranks as the second-greatest scoring feat in state history. No. 1 is Kurland’s 58-point game against Saint Louis in 1946; Kurland was matched against Ed Macauley, who made third-team all-American that season as a sophomore and eventually was inducted into the Basketball Hall of Fame.
A bunch of Sooner big men reached 40 points. Jeff Webster did it twice. Don Sidle, the great center from the 1960s, did it once. So did Alvan Adams and Blake Griffin and Harvey Grant and Darryl Kennedy.
Tony Martin scored 40 points against Sam Houston State in 1990, which does damage to the theory that only special players can reach 40. Martin indeed was a role player. He played just 17.2 and 18.9 minutes his final two seasons, averaging 7.5 and 11.1 points a game. Martin was a solid player, but his numbers are a total reflection of Tubbs’ high-scoring teams, which averaged over 100 points a game.
But here’s where it gets interesting. Also on the OU list are Skeeter Henry, Tim McCalister and Brent Price.
Price is who I want to focus on. Price is not considered an all-time great at OU, but he was a heck of a player. Played nine years in the NBA.
Price transferred from South Carolina, and in his two Sooner seasons, Price averaged 17.5 and 18.7 points a game. For his career, he shot 44 percent from the field and 40 percent from 3-point range.
No one would ever call Brent Price a role player. He was a star. But was he better than Keiton Page?
Let’s look at Price’s two-years totals: 18.0 points a game, 5.8 assists per game, 44 percent shooting.
Let’s look at Page’s final two seasons. His first two years matter, but compared to Price, they are just gravy, since Price played just the two seasons. Page: 14.3 points, 1.9 assists, 38.5 percent shooting.
So Price’s numbers clearly are bigger. But let’s go slow on saying they are better. Price’s two OU teams averaged 96.1 and 94.6 points a game. They gave up 88.3 and 81.9 points a game. That is not a misprint. Seems like forever ago, but there was a time people went to college basketball games not only expecting their team to win, but also to be delivered an entertaining product.
Compare those numbers to the current OSU squad. The Cowboys are averaging 67.5 points a game this season and averaged 68.2 points a game last season. They are giving up 68.0 points a game this season and gave up 66.6 a game last season.
So you tell me. What’s more valuable? A guard who scores 18 points in a 96-88 game or a guard who scores 14 points in a 68-67 game?
Granted, Price was a better defender, and he had way more assists than Page has, though Page hasn’t exactly been passing to Jeff Webster the last two years.
If you ask me, I’d say Price was the better college player, but it’s close. It’s debatable. It’s worthy of discussion. And Price was a heck of a player.
For reasons beyond his control, Page has become a lightning rod. Little white kid from small-town Oklahoma, playing at a tradition-rich school that has fallen on hard times. Nobody in orange is walking away unscathed, especially the guy who is taking the most shots.
But before his career passes, let’s still enjoy what the guy can do. Hard to score 40 points, be it against Oktaha or Texas.
-------------Berry Tramel can be heard Monday through Friday from 4:40-5:20 p.m. on The Sports Animal radio network, including AM-640 and FM-98.1. You can e-mail him here and follow him on Twitter @BerryTramel. Visit Berry's website here.
If you enjoyed this post, please consider to leave a comment or subscribe to the feed and get future articles delivered to your feed reader.
Comments
Nice game for a short B.B. player. I don’t think very many people could beat him in a game of Horse,providing dunks don’t count. Definately a great shooter, with some pretty nifty moves. Will probably make a great Coach in the future if he goes that direction. Also give him a lot of credit for a lot of heart, I can tell he worked very hard at developing his game. The season is not over yet for O.S.U so we still get the good fortune of continuing to get to enjoy his talents. O.S.U seems to be improving and may just surprise or waste a few more teams come Big xx Tournament Time. Actually I wouldn’t be surprised that they don’t win the other tournament like Wichita State did last season, It is sad that O.S.U isn’t somewhat deeper. Keep up the good work K.P. and the best of Luck in the future.
Keiton is one of the smartest basketball players that you will ever find on a college court…..from a basketball savvy standpoint, think John Stockton, Mark Price, Steve Nash…..that’s where his court awareness and basketball playing knowledge rank…..and that is where he compensates for his size, and his lack of strong defense. However, don’t think that he isn’t a solid college basketball player….he is NOT a professional prospect….but look at the football players that have great college careers (and I do mean GREAT), but never make an NFL roster…Keiton is a smart player with great heart (mentioned above), and he is a winner and an awesome citizen and representative for Oklahoma State and the state of Oklahoma as well, and of course Pawnee (and even Yale).
Mr. Trammel, I believe you have forgotten what you have written in previous articles about OSU basketball this year. You have said that every OSU opponent KEYS thier defensive plan to stop Keaton Page, and that has been the case the last 2 years. For a player to warrent that moch attention HE has to be better than you portray him in your rankings. I think if YOU would beyond the stats, that all SPORTS REPORTERS look at, his 4 years of cotributions to the OSU basketball team will rank him a whole lot higher than what you think he should rank.
Berry, first off why add so much OU content in an article about where KeitOn Page ranks among the greatest oSu players? It totally clogs up a perfectly good blog.
Second, I watched the Texas game and never heard the announcers say that KeitOn was one of the all-time greatest players at oSu. Did they in fact say that?
Third, as a stickler for proper English grammar you should know that the word “great” in this sentence should be “greatest,” unless you are comparing only two great oSu players: “Proponents, primarily excited television announcers but also even OSU coach Travis Ford, will talk about Page’s place as one of the all-time great Cowboys.”
Fourth, Page is easily in the Top 20 as greatest Cowboys based on his longevity, team leadership, fan favorite, and clutch play.
Tramel didn’t mention two of the better players from the Iba
era–Bob Mattick & Don Johnson.
Don’t think either of them ever scored 40 points, but remember that was the era when OSU’s opponents barely scored much more than 40 points for the entire team.
Phil-
He named 15 guys better off the top of his head just from the Sutton era. Also I’m pretty sure there is nothing worse then someone who corrects someones grammar…especially in a blog….how does fan favorite and longevity mean diddly squat when saying who’s better basketball player? That’s ridiculous! He’s a great college player & in no way is saying that he’s not in the top 20 in OSU history a jab at him. It’s pretty easy to name 20-30 guys that have more talent and were better players. Get a life. Its pathetic to correct peoples grammar.
Page bled ORANGE before he ever stepped on campus. He could not increase his height, but worked extremely hard to increase his speed and body build over the four years. His
basketball drive, heart and knowledge could potentially produce a “Mike Gundy” of basketball at OSU in 10-15 years, if we are lucky.
That has to be one of the most convoluted blog-posts I’ve ever read. And it’s a great example of how this paper can’t write anything about oSu that doesn’t at least tip a hat to OU. The title is a question asking where Page ranks in the history of “Oklahoma State” basketball, and ends with a focus on OU’s Brent Price, and doesn’t answer the question, even after Tram alters it to where Page might rank in the history of the “State” of Oklahoma. Page ranks higher than several of those mentioned who may have had more physical skill and talent, including Price, because of his leadership, and the example he sets in light of today’s college game and today’s OSU team. The question should be answered by an OSU fan,not an anti-OSU biased sports writer. Page ranks in the top 50 for the intangibles I mentioned and more, and because he’s an Oklahoma kid. BTW I would say any talk about the greatest of all time at OSU should include Leroy Combs, John Starks and Dickey Nutt! (just kidding about ‘Shooter’ Nutt).
PS – the stats in this post are testament to the fact that OSU has had a defense-first approach to basketball for the entirety of the 20th century and beyond, and OU hasn’t, not that there’s anything wrong with that. I loved watching Tubb’s OU teams go up and down and some of my favorite players from the old Big 8 included Chucky Barnett and David Little, and that baseball player whose last name escapes right now . . . Ryan something. Youngster OU fans who like to see an undersized, stocky guy who couldn’t jump put on a basketball skills clinic should hunt down some video of Chucky. He put fans in the seats at LNC. ‘Nuf said!
[...] What is Berry trying to prove here with this post on Keiton? Every time I thought he was about to make a great point, he skipped ahead to something else. (NewsOK) [...]
[...] Page was a big topic of discussion yesterday, and he’s back in the fold today with a discussion of his legacy. He’ll graduate from Oklahoma State as a hate-him-or-love-him volume shooter who played as [...]
I agree that there have been a lot of great players at OSU and that ranking even the top 50 would be difficult, but there is no way that Byron Eaton would be ahead of Keiton in my book. Just my opinion, I know, but to me its not even close.
Way to go Keiton. You’ve just muddled the minds of so many who had all but counted you & OSU out. Keep the faith and keep hustling and good things will come.
Look at it this way: Who would you pick as your all time starting five in OSU history? How about Big Country, Desmond Mason, Tony Allen,
Joey Graham and Keiton Page. Add a bench with Eaton, Dumas, Clark, Gottlieb and Kurland. Page is deserving to be in the mix of OSU’s all time greats….
I like the heck out of Page.
However, if he was guarded by Tony Allen or Marcus Dove, he wouldn’t average double digits.
Barry nice article but how in the heck could you not mention Brent Price’s 56 points against Loyola Marymount! I’m thinking that’s number two behind Kurland…not Stacey King. Probably everyone who read this article is thinking hey…how many did Brent Price have that one game…lol. It was a great article about The Pawnee Pistol who all Okie’s should be proud of but ya goofed leaving the 56 point game by Price out.
OSU fan here.
I have to admit that over the last 4 years, I have been one to think that at times Page wasn’t deserving of being on the court. Too small – almost any 14 year is big enough to cover him. Can’t cover anyone – Big 12 guards standing 6 foot 2,4,or 6 inches can shoot right over the top of him. Was I right or was I wrong? I’m not sure.
HOWEVER, I want to say that I RESPECT the hustle, effort and heart this young man plays with.
Page may have come to Stillwater looking like Ollie in the movie “Hoosiers” but he left a man. I will always consider him a great representative of OSU. Way to COWBOY UP Keiton Page! Blessings to you in the future.