Extended Q&A: Joel Hodgson of MST3K
This is an extended Q&A version of my recent phone interview with Joel Hodgson, creator of the cult TV show “Mystery Science Theater 3000,” which is celebrating the big 2-0 with the “Mystery Science Theater 3000 20th Anniversary Edition.”
In the interview, Hodgson talks happily about getting to revisit the space-based movie riffing/puppet show he created back in 1988. He also talked about his new movie-mocking project “Cinematic Titanic” with former MST3K cast members Trace Beaulieu, Mary Jo Pehl, Frank Conniff and J. Elvis “Josh” Weinstein.
He also talks about why he left the show in 1999 and describes it as a “personal tragedy.”
MST3K fans (AKA MSTies) may find it tragic that Hodgson doesn’t give much hope for a crossover between “Cinematic Titanic” and RiffTrax, the movie-mocking audio commentaries that former MST3K cast members Michael J. Nelson, Bill Corbett and Kevin Murphy are creating.
Q: I just got off the phone with original cast member Trace Beaulieu a second ago.
A: Oh, good I’m right on time.
Q: I got the whole scoop from him. Now, I’m going to check in with you and see if your stories match up.
A: OK, I bet they’re pretty close. (laughing)
Q: So where are you calling me from?
A: I’m calling you from Pennsylvania. I’m at a coffee shop in Pennsylvania.
Q: How’d do you end up in a coffee shop in Pennsylvania?
A: I just moved to Pennsylvania.
Q: Oh, OK. So there’s no weird story like you were kidnapped by aliens and left there because you were wanting some caffeine?
A: I can’t talk about that. (laughing) I can’t. Actually, they’re looking at me right now. I can’t say anything.
Q: Well, we’ll try not to say anything that will upset the aliens.
A: All right, sounds good.
Q: Did you ever imagine when you started MST3K that I would be calling you about the 20th anniversary?
A: Oh, absolutely not. It’s so funny. I’m just thrilled and it’s so great. But no, I didn’t have the faintest idea. I mean, it’s funny, when we were doing it, people would go ‘Are you surprised that people like your show and it’s on TV?’ I would always kind of go, ‘No, ‘cause that’s why you make a TV show. You do it ‘cause you think you have a good idea and you think people will like it.’ So that part I saw, but not 20 years later, and we actually every year we sell more DVDs than we did the previous year. It’s kind of like the comic equivalent of Steve Miller Band’s ‘Fly Like an Eagle’; it just keeps getting reinvented and rediscovered by new generations.
Q: What is it about it that makes it like that, that makes it strike such a chord. Because I will tell you that I never had to defend something I got in the mail as vehemently as I did the box set. I was stiff-arming people like Adrian Peterson of the Minnesota Vikings.
A: Wow, that’s good news. That’s great. I don’t know, I think that it was kind of like we created a new comic art form and because of that we were able to kind of fill it up. I mean, the real trick of the show is that we did 22 shows locally to really figure it out. We spent a year doing it on a local UHF channel and so when we went and did it nationally, we really had it figured out.
So, I feel like that was kind of the magic secret ingredient. And I think if we would have done it traditionally like oh I go to a network and I have an idea and I go ‘This is what it’s going to be like,’ and then they go, ‘OK, write a script,’ it just never would have happened. It was really about getting it on its feet and kind of roughing it out. And that’s the way I am, too. I don’t like writing scripts; I like making the visual elements and seeing if it all makes sense visually and then all the other things kind of fall into place.
I don’t know, it’s kind of a long way of saying we kind of invented this new kind of weird little thing, and then because we were kind of open-minded we were able to kind of figure out how to master it. It’s a niche, I guess.
Q: Was there any particular moment or little idea or something that kind of sparked the whole thing? Obviously, you’re the creator and came up with the idea, and it is kind of an idea where you think, well how did you come out with that, making fun of movies with robot puppets?
A: I can tell you the exact moment I thought of it. It was in high school. I was at my friend Mike Wilkinson’s house and we were folding flowers for the homecoming float. I don’t know if you did this, but in Green Bay, you made floats out of chicken wire and then you got tissue paper and you kind of crumple it and stuff it in; it kind of looked like a plush toy or something.
But for some reason, we’re all at his house, and we’re making these things, and putting them in garbage bags and hanging out and I was probably 16 and the Elton John album “Goodbye Yellow Brick Road” was like playing on the stereo. And there was like this image in there of an illustration of this song called “I’ve Seen That Movie Too,” and there’s a silhouette of three characters looking at a movie screen. And I looked at that, and I said, ‘You know, that’d actually be a really great show if you ran a movie and you had people saying stuff.’ And so that’s when I thought of it, and I knew enough about how green screen worked from the weatherman; in Green Bay they stand in front of Green Bay, they’d stand in front of an orange screen and they could superimpose stuff. So technically I knew it was possible.
And then it kind of set dormant until I got to a position where I could actually do something about it, and that’s when I had gotten done doing standup and went back to Minneapolis. And that’s when I kind of pulled together and got to it. So that was really the Gestalt moment, really when I saw that record cover.
Q: You really remember that in like scary detail.
A: It’s really weird but actually yeah, I do remember it. And you know, you just have those moments occasionally where you go, ‘OK I think that’s a genuinely good idea.’ But yeah, high school, I thought of it in high school. (laughing)
Q: Wow. You mentioned something about the importance of being able to work on the show independently and sort of get all the kinks out of it and get it shaped up so you really had the running of it nailed down. Was there any one particular thing that you changed during those early days that really made a huge difference in the development of the show and the success of it later on?
A: Well, I mean, the big thing is for me is bringing in really talented people. I think over time, it’s really clear what I like to do and what I’m particularly good at. And just bringing in Josh and Trace to help me with the comedy was like such an important part of it, and they brought so much to it that I know that if it was just left to me, it wouldn’t have happened. I really know that those guys were really important in kind of advancing the comic element, how dimensional the comedy became, because they’re so different. We’re all kind of different, and so I think that all kind of was like the biggest thing, that I knew that I couldn’t do it – or shouldn’t do it – all by itself.
Q: And that was something that you guys sort of seemed like you continued to build on, you were continually adding smart people who had a lot of pop culture knowledge and were pretty literate people to add to the humor of it. It seemed like that you continued to do that?
A: Yeah. The thing was about the show is that it’s a two-hour show, and I think that must represent 90 minutes of programming or 80 minutes of programming. And we had so much space to fill and so little time and so little money, it was almost like you needed people to act autonomously as to what they thought was funny and kind of just throw in whatever they wanted. And so it really shaped itself. …
Like I remember when Josh brought me down to watch Mike Nelson do standup, and it was kind of like an open stage, and he was just kind of more than anything else he was amusing himself, which I really liked. And I thought that was kind of the key component, and Josh really liked him. And so it was more that he was amused by what he was doing rather than the audience. (little laugh) And it was kind of like I think we knew that if someone has that kind of internal engine to kind of produce stuff that can find of fill up all the space that needs to get in there, you know, all the various (jokes). There’s just 600 jokes a show, you know, and seven days to do it, so you can’t spend too much time and you can’t be editorial about it.
I mean, of the things I’m most proud of is that I didn’t just preside over it and say ‘This is a funny joke, that’s not a funny joke.’ I really just said, ‘If you think it’s funny, let’s leave it in. And the only thing we’ll take out is stuff that people find really offensive.’ And so we had kind of this self-monitoring kind of system in place. … Like if someone goes, ‘I’m really offended by that,’ like I think I remember doing a fat joke on a particular situation, and once Trace just said, ‘You know, I don’t think you should do that and I don’t like it,’ and we just threw it out. And that would happen occasionally, people would just go, ‘I don’t like it take it out’ or ‘Take it out, I don’t like it.’
I think that it was kind of that cheap, fast and out-of-control model that allowed us to do what we did.
Q: I watched the footage of the 20th anniversary reunion panel at this summer’s San Diego Comic-Con on the 20th anniversary special edition DVD set. How was it to do that and was that the first time you had kind of all been together in years?
A: Yeah, it was really interesting and really fun. And you start to kind of remember just the people who are involved and all their personalities. And it’s fun ‘cause you know, it’s such an, I don’t know, like an indulgence to get to go back over so much time and kind of rethink it and kind of look at all these people and see and kind of remember how all these personalities and people all brought different things to it. …
That was kind of the pleasure of it all, just people kind of coming up with and unfolding their own ideas about what they thought was funny. And you know, I’m just so super proud of it that I didn’t try to go, ‘This has to be what I think is funny.’
Q: Did everybody get along, everybody have fun when you came together for the panel?
A: Everybody was I think really enthused to be together, and everybody had the chance to be funny in front of people. It seemed like everybody got off at least one really huge joke and so it seemed like the world was right that night.
Q: Was it gratifying that so many people wanted to be there, because I understand it was packed, people couldn’t get in, people showed up with original MST3K fan club cards. Are you still kind of amazed at the reaction the show gets?
A: Oh yeah. Yeah. It was just amazing and I think Josh said it best. He just said, ‘It looks like we’re geek royalty.’
Q: I guess that’s because you are.
A: Yeah, I guess so, but that was really nice.
Q: Now, you left MST3K midway through the show’s run. But were you happy to see that it was able to keep going, that it was something that was able to perpetuate itself – because you talked about the democratic spirit of working on it – and continue on to 10 seasons?
A: Oh, yeah, I think that’s kind of the ultimate kind of test of being a good architect of a show is that it can keep running without you, and so that was really important. And on top of that, I’d make more money if the show kept going, so obviously, I especially wanted that to happen.
Q: Do I know why you left? I don’t think I’ve ever heard that, or at least I can’t recall.
A: Oh, I was fighting with (MST3K executive producer and president of the show’s production company Best Brains Inc.) Jim Mallon. … Jim Mallon was my partner in it, and we started having creative differences about the show, and it was mostly centered on the feature. And so it got to the point where I just felt like I should go.
Q: Well, you sat next to each other at the panel, and there were no apparent problems with that.
A: Oh, yeah, I think time has healed all those wounds.
Q: Obviously, this concept, at least as far as you guys are concerned, has had a lasting quality to it. Not only did MST3K go on for so long, but you guys have all moved on to similar projects. What is it about this concept that you think makes it something that people want to see and keep seeing?
A: Well, personally, it’s just the most fun I’ve ever had in show business. It’s creative, and when you do standup, you really have to kind of get it right every time and you have to kind of perform the same thing over and over. And this has a way of you kind of get material on its feet really fast and then you can perform it.
And so, doing “Cinematic Titanic” now, a big component of it is us performing live. … I love it, ‘cause it’s more like music, you know, you kind of get a movie on its feet and write all the jokes and work out all the parts and then we’re able to go perform it live. So, that’s more rewarding than almost any part of it I’ve ever done ‘cause we’re all like standups so we all really like to perform. So it’s an unbelievable feeling. It’s like a funny Philip Glass concert; we get to present it like a concert.
Q: And I told Trace this, too, that I have people telling me that I needed to tell you to bring “Cinematic” Titanic to Oklahoma City, so I’m passing along that information.
A: Oh, thanks, yeah. We just started working with a pretty big-time concert promoter, and he’s kind of got a strategy for us on how to break into doing those events. And so yeah, we’re gonna start kind of pursuing that more seriously, so I’ll mention that.
Q: Is there any chance for something like a “Cinematic Titanic”/RiffTrax crossover? I know fans are always fantasizing about those kind of things.
A: Yeah, I don’t know. I mean, it’s kind of like I feel the best thing right now is to keep ‘em separate. I feel like we kind of have to create our own identity, and so I’m not really very interested in it. And I think too that it’s kind of like people, I think their fantasies of it are probably better than it probably would be. I think it would mean a lot of work and then you know, I’m not sure it would be as satisfying as people think.
But also conceptually, you know, RiffTrax is just an MP3, it’s just audio, and people approached me many times over the years to do that, and I just didn’t feel it was conceptually sound compared to “Mystery Science Theater” or “Cinematic Titanic.” So I don’t think I’d do a RiffTrax, you know what I mean? It doesn’t quite make sense to me.
Q: You’re more of a visual guy, aren’t you? You were always doing the visuals on the show, like the Invention Exchange?
A: Yeah, exactly, and so to me, it’s like it’s not really there, so I kind of feel like it would be a step backwards for me.
Though I know that I’ve heard ‘em and I think they’re super funny, and I know what they’re doing. It’s kind of like you have to imagine that you’re seeing their silhouettes. You know what I mean? It’s kind of like asking the audience to collaborate and say ‘Just imagine that they’re in theater seats and they’re like moving around even though they’re not.’ And we have a really imaginative fan base, so I know that they will do that, you know.
Q: I guess you guys have a new DVD that just came out, and then Trace alluded to something about a super-secret extremely controversial Christmas episode that’s coming out.
A: Yes, and what’s really cool, what’s kind amazing to me is that we now have our own official box set ‘cause we’ve come out with four DVDs. So it’s kind of like “Mystery Science Theater” has a box set this Christmas and we have four DVDs.
But I think (what) we’re going to try to do is it’s a conceptual box set in that I think we just only give you a rubber band to wrap around the four discs. It’s really just a special price on the four discs. But maybe you’ll get a rubber band; I think Trace was calling it a bag set where we’re gonna give people a paper bag to put it in. It won’t be a box set.
But the big thing is that we have four. We started less than a year ago, and we’ve got four DVDs out already. So we’re really proud of that.
Q: And he mentioned something Christmas-y was coming?
A: Yeah, we’ve got a Christmas thing coming up, but yeah, again, it’s like secret. So we can’t let it out yet. …
Q: All right. Is there any favorite MST3K story that you wanted to share, maybe about a reaction that you got from somebody you riffed on? I know there’s a lot of sort of lore and legends about that, about people who wanted to hit you or all sorts of scary things.
A: Well, the really weird thing to me – and I don’t want to take full responsibility for it ‘cause I think if it wouldn’t have been our show it might have been another show – but people come up and say they’ve had experiences where they’ve been really sick or really depressed and they like would watch copious amounts of the show and it made ‘em feel better. It’s just kind of weird. …
Q: So you have people who come and say that they were depressed or sick and the show helped them feel better? That would be weird.
A: Yeah, that’s like amazing to me and kind of like it’s somehow therapeutic when people laugh. … That’s kind of my take on it, just it’s strange and it’s kind of a little bit too much praise in a way for doing a funny show. (with laugh)
Q: Is there anything I haven’t asked that you want to say about the fans or about other projects you have?
A: Not really. To me, yeah, I’m just thrilled. It’s so fun to get to come back and to get to talk about it. And when I left it was really like kind of a personal tragedy and I felt like I wouldn’t ever be able to tell my story, and so that’s like the most fun part of this is getting to come back and kind of explain, you know reiterate, what happened. You know, so yeah, I’m just thrilled. It’s really fun.
Q: Well, thanks for taking the time. It’s been fun talking to you. Good luck with the aliens; I hope you get out of the coffee shop someday.
A: All right cool. Thanks.
-BAM
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Comments
I know he said that a CT and Rifftrax crossover was unlikely, but I don’t think that rules out individuals from joining each other on their own. After all, Mary Jo has already done a Rifftrax. It might be nice to see Frank or Trace do one or have Kevin join CT for an episode. But there I go, having fan-fantasies….
I always loved this show. Guaranteed chuckle! Great interview.